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Old
01-19-2012, 09:06 PM
  #351
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Sucks but really not surprising. And I'm really happy if the scalpers lose a **** load of money

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01-19-2012, 09:07 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
So..Emelin is out then basically. Can't see them sitting Gill.
It's exactly what they need to do. back to back games and Gill simply can't keep it up. Give him a break

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01-19-2012, 09:08 PM
  #353
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The habs record with campoli in the lineup is terribad it must be something like 2-11 and i'm not sure it might be even worse.

3 goals on 16 shots Price was awfull on 2 goals the two quick ones specially the softie by johansson totally screwed the habs tiny confidence and they couldn't play hockey afterwards.

When we lose to soon in the game and you are a fragile team like the habs are this year you can say it's game over. This game is 40% on Price 25% on the pp ( i don't even know to say about this one i have never seen and team get 6 minutes of Powerplay and not score a goal) and 25% because the offense sucks like hell.

And 10%(or maybe 100% for the season) on gauthier Cunneyworth Gainey and Martin's fault for putting on the ice gutless players that don't give a rats ass about the habs and what it means.(there are exceptions of course Gorges Gionta to name a few very few)

Good job randy the interim and i say interim coach benching one of your young talents because he was on the ice for a 4 minute powerplay. That's good for his confidence you tool. I think randy is actually worse with the youngsters than Martin was didn't think it was possible.

Good ridance when we get a real ****in coach and i don't care what languages he speaks as long as he gets the job done.

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01-19-2012, 09:10 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I get the idea. But not a fair picture. That's a preseason camp picture. People can't sit in the stands during the season.
Honestly though, people are frustrated... I know I am.

It's one thing to have a bad season, it's another to have a bad season and STILL keep making short term trades. There doesn't seem to be any kind of plan here. We just keep sinking in the standings despite all our efforts.

It would be easier if we were making trades for the future but we aren't. We're tying ourselves to longer contracts and not really getting anything out of it. So instead of doing a planned rebuild that would help get it over with quicker, we're doing it kicking and screaming and missing out on the benefits of selling. That's what's really sad.

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01-19-2012, 09:11 PM
  #355
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Geoff just tweeted:

Your tweets are tough at times but I love your passion for our Team...j'adore votre passion pour le CH...merci et #ghg

he aint seen nothin' yet

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01-19-2012, 09:12 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
Geoff just tweeted:

Your tweets are tough at times but I love your passion for our Team...j'adore votre passion pour le CH...merci et #ghg

he aint seen nothin' yet
I wonder if he reads these boards? He'd probably have a stroke.

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01-19-2012, 09:13 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
Geoff just tweeted:

Your tweets are tough at times but I love your passion for our Team...j'adore votre passion pour le CH...merci et #ghg

he aint seen nothin' yet

Somebody should tweet him a link to our board.

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01-19-2012, 09:13 PM
  #358
Hugo Sham
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I wonder if he reads these boards? He'd probably have a stroke.
tough love baby tough love. oh yeah and fire gauthier

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01-20-2012, 05:50 AM
  #359
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People have no idea how volatile the fanbase is with its lack of success for the past 18 years. And like it or not, it became worst with the Halak trade. That was the only great time in the past years and you trade the poster boy. So people will not let things slide anymore. And maybe to a point of either becoming extremely harsh towards their team or changing allegeance. Add the fact that the enemy just won the Cup and is in route for another one. And the talks that surely sees the Nordiques as another option, it will not stop. They better get their act straight this summer. 'Cause it will get ugly. And again, people who just think that whether it's Boston or the Nordiques, it will not solely exclude the "bad fans" from our fanbase. It will make the booing more present. Will make the medias more avid of stories. And it will take that franchise to the ground as if it wasn't there already. Our franchise will have an even worst name because of it so you better rack the draft picks 'cause that would be the only way players would play here. So people are real naive if they think that the only thing that will happen if the Nords come back is just moving the bad apples....

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01-20-2012, 06:33 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Honestly though, people are frustrated... I know I am.

It's one thing to have a bad season, it's another to have a bad season and STILL keep making short term trades. There doesn't seem to be any kind of plan here. We just keep sinking in the standings despite all our efforts.

It would be easier if we were making trades for the future but we aren't. We're tying ourselves to longer contracts and not really getting anything out of it. So instead of doing a planned rebuild that would help get it over with quicker, we're doing it kicking and screaming and missing out on the benefits of selling. That's what's really sad.
How did we "get nothing out of it" when we got bigger/cheaper/non pouting/more productive player in Bourque PLUS a prospect and a pick. That helps the future with a 2nd in a deep draft, a prospect that is ripping up the WHL plus 2.7 mil in cap room to play with in the summer.

We have guys like Gill Campoli Moen AK with expriring contracts that we can move, plus we already have 7-8 young guys playing regular minutes(Price Emelin Diaz Weber Eller Pacioretty Subban DD) on most nights. You make it sound like we are the Calgary Flames.

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01-20-2012, 07:01 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
How did we "get nothing out of it" when we got bigger/cheaper/non pouting/more productive player in Bourque PLUS a prospect and a pick. That helps the future with a 2nd in a deep draft, a prospect that is ripping up the WHL plus 2.7 mil in cap room to play with in the summer.

We have guys like Gill Campoli Moen AK with expriring contracts that we can move, plus we already have 7-8 young guys playing regular minutes(Price Emelin Diaz Weber Eller Pacioretty Subban DD) on most nights. You make it sound like we are the Calgary Flames.
I'm not sure how people can seriously think we will still have that pick when the draft comes. That's in 2 years. Gauthier or any other for that matter will have plenty of time to deal it. I hope they don't. But let's talk about that pick as an asset. Nothing more. It is not bad, but the past tells us that it doesn't necessarily mean a prospect we will be able to pick in a deep draft....

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01-20-2012, 07:19 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I'm not sure how people can seriously think we will still have that pick when the draft comes. That's in 2 years. Gauthier or any other for that matter will have plenty of time to deal it. I hope they don't. But let's talk about that pick as an asset. Nothing more. It is not bad, but the past tells us that it doesn't necessarily mean a prospect we will be able to pick in a deep draft....
That's dumb logic...ok let's turn down the 2nd rounder because it may get traded for another asset before June 2013...

No matter what we do with it, it's a pretty high second(should be 31-40) in a strong draft, should be an asset with pretty good value. What Gauthier or any other GM does with it has no bearing on the Cammaleri-Bourque trade analysis.

That's like if NYR had traded McDonough to Florida for Olesz right after the Gomez trade and he was thriving there and Olesz was in Connecticut because of his contract(cap hit), it wouldn't mean we suddenly won that trade because McDonough was no longer in NYR or was given away.

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01-20-2012, 08:15 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I'm not sure how people can seriously think we will still have that pick when the draft comes. That's in 2 years. Gauthier or any other for that matter will have plenty of time to deal it. I hope they don't. But let's talk about that pick as an asset. Nothing more. It is not bad, but the past tells us that it doesn't necessarily mean a prospect we will be able to pick in a deep draft....
What's wrong with that possibility exactly?
It's a decent-good asset. Even if we trade it, there's nothing wrong with that so long that the trade is good. Can't really judge a trade that never happened and may never happen now can we?

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01-20-2012, 10:08 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
How did we "get nothing out of it" when we got bigger/cheaper/non pouting/more productive player in Bourque PLUS a prospect and a pick. That helps the future with a 2nd in a deep draft, a prospect that is ripping up the WHL plus 2.7 mil in cap room to play with in the summer.
Make no mistake, this was a trade of two mature players, the prospects and picks were not the main focus here and were enitrely secondary. We got a 2nd out of it? Whoop ditty doo. I'd be happy with that if we dealt away a spare part like Hal Gill. Cammy was our best scorer and we traded him for another guy who's 30 years old. The 2nd isn't likely to become an NHL player let alone an impact one and the prospect is borderline NHL quality.

That's not a good return on an asset that should've been used to help rebuild this club.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
We have guys like Gill Campoli Moen AK with expriring contracts that we can move, plus we already have 7-8 young guys playing regular minutes(Price Emelin Diaz Weber Eller Pacioretty Subban DD) on most nights. You make it sound like we are the Calgary Flames.
But we haven't been SELLING, we've been BUYING. And it's not improving the team. How can you not see this? Are you that freakin' blind? Wake up man.

The club continues to go out and go after guys like Kaberle... WHY? Seriously man. WTH is that guy going to do for us in terms of making us cup contenders? He does absolutely nothing from that perspective. Maybe he helps us in the short term to get 8th place but it's another band-aid fix. That's how we keep continuing to build our team and it's why we are where we are.

That's why people are frustrated and that was my point. We keep trying to move up with quick fix moves but it hasn't worked. The worst part is that we haven't really improved our future. We shouldn't be trading for Rene Bourque, we should be trading for GOOD prospects. At least then sinking in the standings would be more tolerable.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What's wrong with that possibility exactly?
It's a decent-good asset. Even if we trade it, there's nothing wrong with that so long that the trade is good. Can't really judge a trade that never happened and may never happen now can we?
What's wrong with it is that we never should've traded away Cammy for Bourque and a 2nd in the first place. We should've been looking for a 1st. And if clubs weren't willing to trade away something decent, then we just should've held onto him. We traded away the better player... and got a 30 year old in return. It makes no sense in the context of where we stand today.

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Old
01-20-2012, 10:12 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Make no mistake, this was a trade of two mature players, the prospects and picks were not the main focus here and were enitrely secondary. We got a 2nd out of it? Whoop ditty doo. I'd be happy with that if we dealt away a spare part like Hal Gill. Cammy was our best scorer and we traded him for another guy who's 30 years old. The 2nd isn't likely to become an NHL player let alone an impact one and the prospect is borderline NHL quality.

That's not a good return on an asset that should've been used to help rebuild this club.

But we haven't been SELLING, we've been BUYING. And it's not improving the team. How can you not see this? Are you that freakin' blind? Wake up man.

The club continues to go out and go after guys like Kaberle... WHY? Seriously man. WTH is that guy going to do for us in terms of making us cup contenders? He does absolutely nothing from that perspective. Maybe he helps us in the short term to get 8th place but it's another band-aid fix. That's how we keep continuing to build our team and it's why we are where we are.

That's why people are frustrated and that was my point. We keep trying to move up with quick fix moves but it hasn't worked. The worst part is that we haven't really improved our future. We shouldn't be trading for Rene Bourque, we should be trading for GOOD prospects. At least then sinking in the standings would be more tolerable.
can someone tell the guy we received a prospect AND a pick with Bourque...

cause really, I think he doesnt know...

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Old
01-20-2012, 10:16 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Cammy was our best scorer and we traded him for another guy who's 30 years old.
A few things that rub me the wrong way with this:

- Gionta was/is far and away our best scorer in terms of results. He got the job done. Cammy didn't (besides the playoffs, but you can't always cling to that argument). Cammy was *supposed* to be the better scorer, but Gionta showed just what hard work and intensity can do: get you results. Cammy wasn't willing to work for his results, and it was reflected in his middling statline (unacceptable for a player of his supposed calibre/paycheck).

- Bourque is a few months older than Cammy. So age is a non-issue.

- Bourque, like Gionta, has produced at a higher clip than Cammy has. And he plays a physical game. And he's cheaper.

You're criticizing the move by looking at it through the "potential"/what if? lens. There are no ifs when it comes to pro sports, though. Either you get the job done or you don't, and Cammy didn't.

Though I don't like the term on Bourque's contract. And I question his ability to maintain his level of play over the duration of it.

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01-20-2012, 10:22 AM
  #367
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A few things that rub me the wrong way with this:

- Gionta was/is far and away our best scorer in terms of results. He got the job done. Cammy didn't (besides the playoffs, but you can't always cling to that argument). Cammy was *supposed* to be the better scorer, but Gionta showed just what hard work and intensity can do: get you results. Cammy wasn't willing to work for his results, and it was reflected in his middling statline (unacceptable for a player of his supposed calibre/paycheck).
Cammy is our club's best scorer and easily has the most upside. Bad year? Yes. Trade value lower than it should be? Yes. Zero trade value? Absolutely not. There's no way on God's green earth that there isn't a club out there trying to make the playoffs who wouldn't be interested in him. We'd probably have to take some salary coming back but that's fine as long as we're getting back good prospects and a 1st.

He was a valuable trading asset that we squandered for a lateral move and middling prospects.
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- Bourque is a few months older than Cammy. So age is a non-issue.

- Bourque, like Gionta, has produced at a higher clip than Cammy has. And he plays a physical game. And he's cheaper.

You're criticizing the move by looking at it through the "potential"/what if? lens. There are no ifs when it comes to pro sports, though. Either you get the job done or you don't, and Cammy didn't.

Though I don't like the term on Bourque's contract. And I question his ability to maintain his level of play over the duration of it.
You're totally missing the point. Age IS an issue. Why are we trading away one 30 year old for another? We shouldn't have been looking at Bourque in the first place. We should be focusing on prospects not vets. We should be SELLING.

PG was desperate to save his job so he made a desperate move. Same as he did with Kaberle.

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01-23-2012, 09:34 AM
  #368
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Not sure why you have a hate on for him.

I'd rather get he get the ice time ahead of Gill and Campoli who won't be here next year. He plays a smart game and is usually in good position, rarely loses 1 on 1 battles and his passes are on the tape. People love to crap on him when he makes a mistake but overlook the 10 good plays he made before that went unnoticed. he is very good on the PP but our PP blows right now, all they do is pass to the point and crowd the front of the net so teams key on the 2 point men and shooting lanes. Create a few chances down low and suddenly the points get open and you get goals from there.

I don't see the point of trading him for a pick at this point, trade the older guys and play him, then in the summer, sign a veteran stay at home #3-4 guy(or Suter if we can get him).
Gill does one thing better than ANY D on the team. PK. He is limited, and everyone can see that. Campoli, I agree, does not deserve ice time.

But neither does Weber.

Win his 1-1 battles? Pass on the tape? Very good on the PP? Game tape just does not agree.

I have done it in the past and posted it; taken exact game times and reviewed his play, I watched ONLY Weber, and noted what he did on each shift. How he positions himself. How he reacts to the play when he is not directly involved. How he adjusts....He does not do what you say.

Weber loses every physical contest, slows down, or even stops skating between the blue lines when there is no obvious outlet, and on the PP....the thing he is such a specialist as.... he either needs to get the puck in the 100% perfect position or he will not shoot, and when he does shoot...he never finds the lane.

I agree, there is no point in trading him, because his value is only high in the eyes of Habs fans. They cannot get more than a career AHL'r for him.

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01-23-2012, 09:59 AM
  #369
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Cammy is our club's best scorer and easily has the most upside. Bad year? Yes. Trade value lower than it should be? Yes. Zero trade value? Absolutely not. There's no way on God's green earth that there isn't a club out there trying to make the playoffs who wouldn't be interested in him. We'd probably have to take some salary coming back but that's fine as long as we're getting back good prospects and a 1st.

He was a valuable trading asset that we squandered for a lateral move and middling prospects.

You're totally missing the point. Age IS an issue. Why are we trading away one 30 year old for another? We shouldn't have been looking at Bourque in the first place. We should be focusing on prospects not vets. We should be SELLING.

PG was desperate to save his job so he made a desperate move. Same as he did with Kaberle.
Cammy was signed to a 6M contract because he scored 39G and produced at 1pt/gp.
He never got close to those numbers since joining us. Over his three years here, he produced at a 26 goal pace.
Gionta, over the same tenure, kept a 30G pace.

So yea, in terms of potential, he was our best scorer, but he didn't live up to it here.
Gionta has outscored him.

And we're just talking in terms of goals. In terms of points, he's been very disappointing. The problem with him is that production is the only reason he earned that contract. Outside scoring goals, he is rather useless. It wasn't just one bad year.


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What's wrong with it is that we never should've traded away Cammy for Bourque and a 2nd in the first place. We should've been looking for a 1st. And if clubs weren't willing to trade away something decent, then we just should've held onto him. We traded away the better player... and got a 30 year old in return. It makes no sense in the context of where we stand today.
That's alright. We should have kept him here longer and move him around the deadline with a probable higher value. I agree. What's done is done however. A 2nd rounder remains a decent asset regardless of whether or not we could have gotten better.

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01-23-2012, 10:20 AM
  #370
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People have no idea how volatile the fanbase is with its lack of success for the past 18 years. And like it or not, it became worst with the Halak trade. That was the only great time in the past years and you trade the poster boy. So people will not let things slide anymore. And maybe to a point of either becoming extremely harsh towards their team or changing allegeance. Add the fact that the enemy just won the Cup and is in route for another one. And the talks that surely sees the Nordiques as another option, it will not stop. They better get their act straight this summer. 'Cause it will get ugly. And again, people who just think that whether it's Boston or the Nordiques, it will not solely exclude the "bad fans" from our fanbase. It will make the booing more present. Will make the medias more avid of stories. And it will take that franchise to the ground as if it wasn't there already. Our franchise will have an even worst name because of it so you better rack the draft picks 'cause that would be the only way players would play here. So people are real naive if they think that the only thing that will happen if the Nords come back is just moving the bad apples....
True but people are equally naive in thinking the Habs are going to have issues selling tickets as a result of their current standing too.

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01-23-2012, 10:27 AM
  #371
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That's alright. We should have kept him here longer and move him around the deadline with a probable higher value. I agree. What's done is done however. A 2nd rounder remains a decent asset regardless of whether or not we could have gotten better.
I don't understand this reasoning. How is it a good return if we could've gotten something better?

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01-23-2012, 10:38 AM
  #372
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I don't understand this reasoning. How is it a good return if we could've gotten something better?
Say the Pens trade Malkin for Plekanec. God awful trade, and certainly could have gotten plenty more. Does this make Plekanec a bad player? No, but the trade remains bad.

This was pushing it to an extreme, but it's pretty clear.

I never said it was a good return, I said it's a decent-good asset. Two entirely different things.

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01-23-2012, 11:06 AM
  #373
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I don't understand this reasoning. How is it a good return if we could've gotten something better?
We could've gotten something better? Really?


Edit:

For an underperforming, overpriced pouting smurf, it is hard to do better than that:

Bourque scored 27 goals (per season) in his last two seasons. He is big and he is not afraid of the heavy circulation. He is also 3M$ per cheaper.

According to some scouts (including Timmins), 2013 will be a good draft. Gauthier received a 2nd round pick for that year... from a bad team => 31st to 40th selection.

Scouts also mentioned that Holland, currently 9th in the WHL top scorers list, can become a good 3rd or 4th liner in the NHL.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 01-23-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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01-23-2012, 11:16 AM
  #374
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We could've gotten something better? Really?
Yes.

Again it depends on how you look at it. If you want us to have a player who could take over for Cammy right away with a sideways move... sure. It wasn't actually all that bad from that perspective.

But why are we looking for this kind of return? We gave up the better player in the trade and while we shed a bit of salary and got a 2nd rounder and prospect, in both cases it's questionable whether or not those will even pan out to be NHL players. This was a trade where the principle assets were two veteran players.

Why make this kind of deal? Why not try to make a trade where the principle return is draft picks or good prospects? There's no way that Cammy wasn't worth at least a mid first rounder in return, esp with the clubs that are struggling to make the playoffs. No, you might not get a guy like Bourque in return with that but who cares? We aren't winning anything this year anyway?

Again, there's no long term plan. It's a series of reactive knee jerk moves. That's how we build our team and that's why we are where we are.

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01-23-2012, 11:32 AM
  #375
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Yes.

Again it depends on how you look at it. If you want us to have a player who could take over for Cammy right away with a sideways move... sure. It wasn't actually all that bad from that perspective.

But why are we looking for this kind of return? We gave up the better player in the trade and while we shed a bit of salary and got a 2nd rounder and prospect, in both cases it's questionable whether or not those will even pan out to be NHL players. This was a trade where the principle assets were two veteran players.

Why make this kind of deal? Why not try to make a trade where the principle return is draft picks or good prospects? There's no way that Cammy wasn't worth at least a mid first rounder in return, esp with the clubs that are struggling to make the playoffs. No, you might not get a guy like Bourque in return with that but who cares? We aren't winning anything this year anyway?

Again, there's no long term plan. It's a series of reactive knee jerk moves. That's how we build our team and that's why we are where we are.
I hear ya but I cannot agree with you on the following comments...

(1) "... We gave up the better player in the trade..."

Based on what? The only times Cammalleri outscored Bourque was during two of his contract years - the rest is all Bourque. And besides scoring, Cammalleri did not bring anything of value: no strong backchecking, he stayed in the perimeter, no physicality, questionable attitude… I don't see him as a better player than Bourque.

(2) "... and while we shed a bit of salary..."

3M$ per season is no small change!

(3) "... and got a 2nd rounder and prospect, in both cases it's questionable whether or not those will even pan out to be NHL players..."

True but 2013, according to Timmins, will be a good draft and the Flames are a bad team => we are chatting about a potential 31st to 40th selection here… imo it is a very good pick. As for Holland, he sure is a question mark – I will give you that.

(4) "... Again, there's no long term plan..."

No plan?

Offers a contract to White but not to Pyatt
Signs Cole
Convinced Emelin to cross the ocean
Acquires Eller and Schultz
Acquires Bourque

What about getting bigger while keeping a solid pool of youth? Bournival, CAL 2nd round pick, Palushaj, Eller, Schultz, Holland...

I think Gauthier really built an awful D squad but for the rest, I think he did well.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 01-23-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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