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2011 Acq./Rost. Bldg./Cap Part 4

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Old
01-20-2012, 09:50 AM
  #926
RandyHolt
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Hockey's hardest hitters heh.

See those two big lunker defensemen that we would like to have, Chara and Murray in that list? If Sarge would have just tried hitting, he easily could have expanded on his game. Its no secret to me, a big slow D in the modern skating game, has to hit. With their superior size, its a stretch to think they would fail miserably at it.

Those things are at the core of development. Seeing what tools a kid has, looking at the modern game, and making him adapt, do things he needs to do, to pan out. Help him and the team, a double win. It's like Sarge wasn't developed at all, or was in charge of his own development. The +fiddy prez run was the perfect time and perhaps last chance we had room to let him adapt to one fast ass league.

Sarge barely to never tried to be physical and I think because of it, is relegated to an 8 if not a 9 now. Maybe McNeill or Collins has passed him too.

George needs to see when his prospects are not developing, and move them before the other GM's realize it.


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01-20-2012, 10:10 AM
  #927
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Originally Posted by Stewie G View Post
I don't know how someone can criticize a move (or non-move) predicated on something that noone saw coming. I'd say that most sane people wouldn't have expected his play to continue at Hart levels for 13 years, but to expect it to go past age 26 wouldn't have been outlandish.

....
My post history searched should yield a consistent result. Ovi expedited our rebuild.

But I don't criticize George much at all about doing a hardcore win now move in the Ovi Hart era largely because I know his prime directive is to build america's team spanning a decade.

It's not in George's nature to go in a bold win now move, I understand there is balance needed. A GM may get canned in a single failed mortgage the future for one cup move. So its a constant tight rope act he walks finding a balance. That just was never enough to land us a Cup with Ovi leading the charge. I have also said a few times, George envisioned Sarge hoisting the cup in 2015 and passing it to Ovi. Sarge is George's big development project, his guy. We gave Sarge every chance. That one is going to hurt for a while.

I also don't criticize him much in an all in Pronger type move in the Hart runs because I was in the middle of expecting Ovi to be a force forever. We saw shades of him coming to earth early in the Montreal series when he couldn't land a single shot on goal. And the Malkin targeting, culminating in the league panicking and overreacting to stars attacking each other, with the ridiculous all star game antics. He was asked to tone it down. Then he got suspended, demoralized with playoff failures, cleanly shaved, and here we are. Ovi isn't broken, he is just a product of his environment.

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01-20-2012, 10:34 AM
  #928
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
My post history searched should yield a consistent result. Ovi expedited our rebuild.

But I don't criticize George much at all about doing a hardcore win now move in the Ovi Hart era largely because I know his prime directive is to build america's team spanning a decade.

It's not in George's nature to go in a bold win now move, I understand there is balance needed. A GM may get canned in a single failed mortgage the future for one cup move. So its a constant tight rope act he walks finding a balance. That just was never enough to land us a Cup with Ovi leading the charge. I have also said a few times, George envisioned Sarge hoisting the cup in 2015 and passing it to Ovi. Sarge is George's big development project, his guy. We gave Sarge every chance. That one is going to hurt for a while.

I also don't criticize him much in an all in Pronger type move in the Hart runs because I was in the middle of expecting Ovi to be a force forever. We saw shades of him coming to earth early in the Montreal series when he couldn't land a single shot on goal. And the Malkin targeting, culminating in the league panicking and overreacting to stars attacking each other, with the ridiculous all star game antics. He was asked to tone it down. Then he got suspended, demoralized with playoff failures, cleanly shaved, and here we are. Ovi isn't broken, he is just a product of his environment.
I know you say it all the time, but I don't think it is wholly accurate. Ovi accelerated one piece of the rebuild, but I don't think management thought there were enough other "now" pieces at the time to make a big push without severely damaging the long-term prospects. Nylander, Kozlov, Poti, an aging Fedorov, the still developing young guns, and a pupu platter of other pieces weren't enough to warrant making a big move. They could have moved the Carlsons, Alzners, Varlys, and 1st rounders, but think about where the team would be now without those pieces. At the time, I thought building long-term was the best course of action and still do, even with the recent playoff failures.

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01-20-2012, 11:03 AM
  #929
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I think the question must be asked of the revisionists is whether they put it all in one of the years and don't get it, and now the team is basically Ovechkin, a knocked out Backstrom and even more trash than is here now, is that ok?

If they win it all, I can stomach it. But if they didn't, it's hard to feel like the team would have as bright of a future. I guess it's just me, but I kind of rather have 8 or 9 pretty good cracks at the Cup than one great one, that might or might not work out.

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01-20-2012, 11:12 AM
  #930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie G View Post
I know you say it all the time, but I don't think it is wholly accurate. Ovi accelerated one piece of the rebuild, but I don't think management thought there were enough other "now" pieces at the time to make a big push without severely damaging the long-term prospects. Nylander, Kozlov, Poti, an aging Fedorov, the still developing young guns, and a pupu platter of other pieces weren't enough to warrant making a big move. They could have moved the Carlsons, Alzners, Varlys, and 1st rounders, but think about where the team would be now without those pieces. At the time, I thought building long-term was the best course of action and still do, even with the recent playoff failures.
And planning to create a dynasty over the long term is idiotic because it looks like Semin's on his way out, Green is on his way to turning into Poti, Backstrom has a concussion and it looks like Ovechkin is not going to return to being a 55+ goal player. This current group is a bunch of middling also rans.

This is the fruit of a patient plan to build a winner?

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01-20-2012, 11:26 AM
  #931
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And planning to create a dynasty over the long term is idiotic because it looks like Semin's on his way out, Green is on his way to turning into Poti, Backstrom has a concussion and it looks like Ovechkin is not going to return to being a 55+ goal player. This current group is a bunch of middling also rans.

This is the fruit of a patient plan to build a winner?

you didnt have your morning coffee yet.

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Old
01-20-2012, 11:42 AM
  #932
Stewie G
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And planning to create a dynasty over the long term is idiotic because it looks like Semin's on his way out, Green is on his way to turning into Poti, Backstrom has a concussion and it looks like Ovechkin is not going to return to being a 55+ goal player. This current group is a bunch of middling also rans.

This is the fruit of a patient plan to build a winner?
If someone could have told us this back then, I would have asked for the lottery numbers too.

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Old
01-20-2012, 11:46 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by Stewie G View Post
I know you say it all the time, but I don't think it is wholly accurate. Ovi accelerated one piece of the rebuild, but I don't think management thought there were enough other "now" pieces at the time to make a big push without severely damaging the long-term prospects. Nylander, Kozlov, Poti, an aging Fedorov, the still developing young guns, and a pupu platter of other pieces weren't enough to warrant making a big move. They could have moved the Carlsons, Alzners, Varlys, and 1st rounders, but think about where the team would be now without those pieces. At the time, I thought building long-term was the best course of action and still do, even with the recent playoff failures.

Rev 4000.1

Playoffs versus Pitt. We were damn close to being in the conference finals! Bruce going back to Theo may have done it, alone. We all saw Varly slowly falling apart and crossed our fingers. Sher-wood imprinted on the side of his helmut from Kunitz. As it was, we made it to game 7 on a rookie G. Playing in front of a broken down defense. 3 broken feet IIRC and Green... just broken.

A bold coaching move away, going back to his number 1 all year long, Theo. Or we may have been just one sturdy LD pickup away that year. Or callup

We were right there, and Ovi was leading the charge. And McPhee deserves full credit. There are no revisions required.

We regressed the next year and he did little.

BCF is right, the fruit seems to have spoiled somewhat. Creating a dynasty is probably a lot harder than George and Ted realize.

There is no crime in just winning one first.


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Old
01-20-2012, 11:49 AM
  #934
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If someone could have told us this back then, I would have asked for the lottery numbers too.
Lots of people said this back then on these boards. The reasoning was generic injury so you won't get specifics, but it's stupid to waste a player's healthy prime years in a contact sport. They only have a finite number of them.

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Old
01-20-2012, 12:39 PM
  #935
Stewie G
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Lots of people said this back then on these boards. The reasoning was generic injury so you won't get specifics, but it's stupid to waste a player's healthy prime years in a contact sport. They only have a finite number of them.
Generic injury isn't quite the same thing as the potential long-term loss of two of their most important players. Green being out for a playoff series or two? Sure. Ovi with a bum wrist one year? Not a crazy notion. Semin getting slashed and ending up with a broken wrist? Against Pittsburgh, bad things are a given. Green with a concussion and possibly busted groin and Backstrom out indefinitely? Hmmm. I'm not sure a lot of teams would be able to plan for the loss of their #1C and #1D. If that were the case, teams would just be going in every year that they have a super star and a handful of good players.

I realize players in contact sports have a finite number of productive years and those that play physical are probably on the shorter end of that spectrum, but I can't picture anyone imagining that that number would be <5 for a quartet of promising 20 somethings.

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01-20-2012, 01:05 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Rev 4000.1

Playoffs versus Pitt. We were damn close to being in the conference finals! Bruce going back to Theo may have done it, alone. We all saw Varly slowly falling apart and crossed our fingers. Sher-wood imprinted on the side of his helmut from Kunitz. As it was, we made it to game 7 on a rookie G. Playing in front of a broken down defense. 3 broken feet IIRC and Green... just broken.

A bold coaching move away, going back to his number 1 all year long, Theo. Or we may have been just one sturdy LD pickup away that year. Or callup

We were right there, and Ovi was leading the charge. And McPhee deserves full credit. There are no revisions required.

We regressed the next year and he did little.

BCF is right, the fruit seems to have spoiled somewhat. Creating a dynasty is probably a lot harder than George and Ted realize.

There is no crime in just winning one first.
You actually are helping my point. That team was also one bold move and one Fedorov wrister away from getting knocked out in the first round. I actually think the previous year's team had a better chance of making a deep run, but they got screwed by the goalie interference call against the Flyers. The team from 2 years ago ran into the worst possible matchup and a blazing goalie but were still a Knuble goalie interference call away from possibly advancing. That's why it makes the most sense to me to try to get as bites at the apples as you can.

Dynasties are hard to build. Very few organizations have been successful at it, but it sometimes takes a while to start seeing the fruits of your labor. It took Detroit a number of years and playoff setbacks before hitting all of the right notes. I'm sure I'll get hammered for comparing the Caps' vision of success to the Wings', but that is the approach they have set out upon for better or worse. I still think this team has a shot at winning a Cup in the near future. If the Young Guns turn out to be pea-shooters after a mere 4 years, then so be it. There are risks associated with making bold moves and risks associated with biding your time. We're seeing the risks associated with the latter, but tend to romanticize the circumstances if we had gone with the former.

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01-20-2012, 01:35 PM
  #937
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I wasn't really trying to dispute your post.

Pea shooters

I have long thought we are trying to copy the Red Wings blue print for success. Ted and George have set a high expectation bar upon themselves. The bar doesnt get much higher than the one the Wings set.

If the skate fits, wear...errr stick Knuble's near the goal crease and wipe out an Ovi goal vs Montreal in game 7. I think that call hurt us as much as the Flyers trucking flyweight SMo into Huet.

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01-20-2012, 01:48 PM
  #938
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From John Jaeckel: Chicago Writer

"Late breaking, Hawks have (Iím hearing this morning) discussed a deal for big Cap defenseman John Erskine. There also has been a discussion of a larger deal involving Jeff Halpern (as I predicted on the message board thread this AM) and a number of Hawk prospects. As reported by Al Cimaglia yesterday, a contingent of Cap scouts has been/will be at the UC (and possibly Rockford) to evaluate the goods. And donít be surprised to see Bryan Bickell dressed tonight."


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01-20-2012, 02:00 PM
  #939
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If true(which I doubt):
-This team still sees something in Schultz, maybe to the point they'll trade defensemen to get him into the lineup a la Moneyball
-Can't see Halpern being moved with him being our most effective faceoff guy and being a good pker
-Bryan Bickell f*ing sucks, big body and doesn't use it

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01-20-2012, 02:05 PM
  #940
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Now that we know that Kundratek seems to be serviceable, I wouldn't be surprised to see us part with one of Erskine or Schultz. But Halpern? Our C Depth is horrid as it is.

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01-20-2012, 02:21 PM
  #941
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From John Jaeckel: Chicago Writer

"Late breaking, Hawks have (Iím hearing this morning) discussed a deal for big Cap defenseman John Erskine. There also has been a discussion of a larger deal involving Jeff Halpern (as I predicted on the message board thread this AM) and a number of Hawk prospects. As reported by Al Cimaglia yesterday, a contingent of Cap scouts has been/will be at the UC (and possibly Rockford) to evaluate the goods. And donít be surprised to see Bryan Bickell dressed tonight."

Hockey Buzz "writer" 600 followers on twitter.

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01-20-2012, 02:29 PM
  #942
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-Bryan Bickell f*ing sucks, big body and doesn't use it
Sounds pretty good to me. This team has been dying for a replacement for Steckel for almost a year.

Quote:
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Now that we know that Kundratek seems to be serviceable, I wouldn't be surprised to see us part with one of Erskine or Schultz. But Halpern? Our C Depth is horrid as it is.
We know just about nothing of Kundratek at the NHL level. He plays like seven minutes per game, as a defenseman. Arguably equivalent to less ice time than DJ King saw when dressed.

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01-20-2012, 02:44 PM
  #943
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the caps trade halpern and erskine? i could see trading erskine only to work the salary cap. even with that his role opens up and an incoming player would have to take it. i am not sure how the team improves. i see no valid reason to trade halpern.

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01-20-2012, 02:52 PM
  #944
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George thinking about moving Erskine to move Sarge up the totem pole? Promotion by subtractions... I don't like that.

Erskine has done great for us in the higher speed playoffs from the Flyers series on. Pitt, broken foot crippled killed him but also a few others. Versus Tampa he didn't do very well, but I don't think anyone on our D did. He has not disappointed me at all on the big stage.

Conversely, Sarge always looked nervous to me in the playoffs.

Erskine and Halpern are close to the least of our problems.

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01-20-2012, 02:58 PM
  #945
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Sarge not taking the morning skate. To me, that means if there's any smoke to the Chicago rumor, that's who's going.

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01-20-2012, 03:07 PM
  #946
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Sarge not taking the morning skate. To me, that means if there's any smoke to the Chicago rumor, that's who's going.
His value has to be at an all time low, though. Feels more like he's being Eminger'd.

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01-20-2012, 03:10 PM
  #947
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Erskine had a hard time becoming a regular when we had guys like Morrisonn, Eminger, Jurcina, and Sloan on defense. Now he's seemingly been edged out be Kundratek. He looked good last season, but hasn't been able to build on it this season. I realize he's our only big, "nasty" defenseman, and the closest thing this roster has to an enforcer.

There is definitely a role for an Erskine-type player on this team, but if Hunter and Johnson aren't going to use him and he's not going to play well enough to force them to, he's expendable in my mind. Outside of a good contract year last year, he hasn't been all that great here.

Would I trade him for Bickell? No. But I wouldn't mind Bickell as a 4th liner if the price was right. Would be better than Beagle.

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01-20-2012, 03:12 PM
  #948
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If Erskine and Halpern are getting moved then we better be getting some good pieces back. Plus it tells us that GMGM doesn't believe this team will go deep into the playoffs. The Blackhawks would be a pretty solid team if they added Erskine and Halpern

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01-20-2012, 03:18 PM
  #949
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I think Erskine a great #7. He can play well in the 40-50 games he'll need to dress, and brings physicality and heavy hands when needed. That's all too rare on this team.

Regarding Halpern, that just makes absolutely no sense to move him, considering his role as go-to faceoff guy and PKer on this team. I'd expect to hear a Halpern extension announced before a Halpern trade.

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01-20-2012, 03:31 PM
  #950
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Regarding Halpern, that just makes absolutely no sense to move him, considering his role as go-to faceoff guy and PKer on this team. I'd expect to hear a Halpern extension announced before a Halpern trade.
this is all true. add that he is the only washington native in the nhl who has a history with the team who just returned to the team as a ufa. this is the last player that you trade.

adding more. as a 4th line player under a million in salary, this player is not going to bring in a difference maker in a trade. he is worth far more to the capitals than any other team in the nhl.

adding yet more. the caps have a hole at center with 19 out as it is. halpern can skate 2nd thru 4th line center and be respectable. it makes no sense what so ever to trade him.

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