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Mathias Brunet Worries Gauthier Still Allowed to Make Trades

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Old
01-20-2012, 02:15 PM
  #76
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Gauthier only thinks about himself and his jobs, he doesn't gives a **** about the Habs future. That's what worries me. He is a self centered piece of ****

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01-20-2012, 02:19 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
What youth was moved? Are you referring to D'agostini, Sergei, Lapierre and O'byrne? Which of these guys would be the difference maker today. The Sergei trade sucked, but we're not even close to knowing whether or not the return in the D'agotini or O'byrne trade has been maximized. You said later in the post that you judge on a case by case basis, as of right now two of the "youth" trades under Gauthier can't even be fully evaluated.


Wisniewski and Moore performed their duties exceptionally well. They were two very sucessful rentals.



Aside from the two 2nds for rentals, which assets did we lose that would change the entire make up this team into a more positive image?



Isn't that what mortgaging the future is? Selling potential long-term gains for short-term ones? That is exactly what your post implied.


How has it been well established? This is pure speculation.



That's all I need to know about the situation, but we have no proof other than speculation that the ones is directly influencing the latter. If that is the case, then how can we blame Gauthier for these trades if he isn't the man behind them at all.

Also it is guilt by association. You are assuming that because one worked under the other that they must have agreed in regards to the moves made. You are assuming that the two cannot disagree and are lumping the moves made by one on the other. There are stories that Andre Savard under Gainey wanted Carter instead of AK and Kopitar instead of Price. Here are two instances where someone working under another can disagree with the moves made. So it's a fallacy to say that they "agreed on all moves", you don't know that, it's pure speculation.



You say you follow trades and transactions on a case by case basis yet you take things out of context. You just on the other page spoke negatively about the Moore trade, but failed to take into account that as a rental(which is a common occurence in the nhl) that the Moore trade was highly successful. As was the Wisniewski trade as a rental.


I don't think Gauthier has been excellent by any means, but negativity has been a gross exaggeration. He's been average and I don't think there is any one move or combination of moves that are enough to warrant a firing.
Sigh, you just don't get it, and proceeded to type way more than I care to respond to. But cliff's notes:

Who are the players/assets than have been brought in to replace the spots of Kostitsyn, Grabovski, Ribeiro, D'Agostini, Lapierre, O'Byrne, and how are they performing/valued compared to those players on their new teams?

You keep going on about the success of the Moore/Wisniewski deals, but I'm commenting on the lack of success keeping them in the organization when they obviously filled their roles well and contributed to making us a better team.

And if financial reasons prevented keeping them, it sure looks silly on a guy who was involved in tying up money in Cammy/Gio/Gomez, only to see him unloading two of them for whatever they can get halfway through the contracts he gave them so soon afterwards.

"Mortgaging the future", to me, implies a full scale and deliberate process of unloading youth for experience, whereas we've been talking about "minor" transactions involving both influx/effluent of veterans AND youth/picks, whose cumulative effect seems to be making us worse. I see huge difference in the two, but apparently you don't, and that's fine.

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01-20-2012, 02:24 PM
  #78
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""Not a lot of people, but this says nothing. Maybe Gauthier was against Gainey decision most of the time. Good managers hire people who can challenge them and have different point of views - maybe that's what Gainey did by hiring Gauthier. We don't know. That's the entire point.""

LOL- maybe everyone that was hired was against Gainey- No wonder some of those brutal trades and signings happened!!

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01-20-2012, 03:09 PM
  #79
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saying goat is responsible for gainey's moves is conjecture at best and blind hatred at worst. hate what you KNOW he's done, not what you THINK he's done...

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01-20-2012, 03:38 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
all THESE GOOD MOVES you claim, has got us where??
Is this like golf now, lower the score the better?

Gauthier sunk the team plain and simple .


I don't care about PROMISE....i seen enough PROMISE in my years to understand ,Higgins , Komo, Latendresse, Chipchura,FISHER,Hainsey,Perezhogin could very well be Beaulieu, Pribyl, Tinordi, Gallagher,Bournival

Promise don't mean nothing ...

The half decent one's we do get(SK,Grabs Ribs ,Halak ,McDounagh etc)get traded away for scraps anyways...

Great post. The Gauthier/management supporters ALWAYS talk about the future. Hell, every team can say the same thing about their prospects.

The last 18 years have been filled with promises that the next two or three years will be the year to win the Cup.......every single year.

Get ready for more Kaberle-esque trades and more signings of Campolis, Diaz's, Woywitkas (has everyone forgotten Woywitka? ) if Gauthier stays.

The Gauthier love affair by fans is strange. The man is a joke and has been a loser everywhere he has been.

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Old
01-20-2012, 03:40 PM
  #81
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I actually liked Woy! Too bad he wasn't on a 2-way.

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01-20-2012, 03:43 PM
  #82
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This article is so awkward, coming from a "professional". Not that I disagree, but the way it is written is just weird. Looks like a HFboards post

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Old
01-20-2012, 03:45 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Oh Cmon, which one the following trades was "mortgaging the future"?



Aside from the 2nd round picks, which is these trades will cause us to be in the bottom of the league for the next 5 years? Which of the players moved are the difference between a bubble team and a cup contender?

PG hasn't been the league's best GM, but we're not on the verge of pure exaggeration. He's been an average GM.
Once again reaffirming the belief that a huge portion of this fanbase is happy with mediocrity.........simply being average is good enough because the Canadiens sweaters look awesome and because Gauthier actually signed a player that I simply adore.

Remember, we are not worthy enough and are selfish for wanting another Cup in Montreal.

Gauthier is a foolish Captain piloting the ship of fools who are simply along for the ride........

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01-20-2012, 03:47 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
I actually liked Woy! Too bad he wasn't on a 2-way.
That wasnt a slam of Woywitka. It was more about the brilliance of Gauthier where he signs a player only to have him leave in a matter of days.

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Old
01-20-2012, 03:55 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Totally agree Andy but think about this

If Molson knows he will can Pierre Gauthier at the end of this season then why on earth does he still want him there making moves especially at this time of the year? The GM that is going to come in might not like his moves or players he picked up and then are going to have to start all over with the new GM's direction. what does that mean, another 3-4-5 years of being mediocre
this is exactly what is making me think that Gauthier is not going to be fired after all.

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01-20-2012, 03:57 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Chuck the Bean View Post
this is exactly what is making me think that Gauthier is not going to be fired after all.
Me too. I would be completely shocked if Molson fires Gauthier. As long as the scalpers continue to buy the tickets, everything is wonderful for Molson.

Molson is quickly becoming the Jerry Jones (NFL Dallas Cowboys owner) of the NHL.

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Old
01-20-2012, 04:08 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
So what do you guys want? Keep Gauthier for now and let him make trades, or make no trades but fire Gauthier at the end of the year and let his successor start fresh (but lose out on all the assets we could gain by selling now)?

You can't have it both ways.
Uh... is there a door number 3 that I can choose? Please?

Question is, what GMs are out there right now? Is there somebody GOOD available that we'll want? If not, making a hasty change could be even worse. But we do have to make trades now so it's kind of a weird spot to be in.

If I'm Molson and there's nobody around to step in right away then I go to Gauthier and tie his hands. Tell him he is a seller. Don't let him make any more stupid short term trades and get whatever he can for the vets we have and get the highest picks and prospects he can. No more lateral moves, no more short term fixes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Brunet is one of my favourite hockey writers but he is totally biased, negatively, regarding the work of Gauthier. If you agree with him when he mentioned that Gauthier should receive a large chunk of the blame for the Ribeiro/Niinimaa trade or the Gomez fiasco (brain dead moves by GAINEY), I guess you are also defending Réjean Houle regarding the Patrick Roy trade.

I mean... it is not like GMs have the final word eh?

Gauthier made some very solid moves during his 1 ½ year's tenure with Montreal:

The acquisition of Bournival, shipping out an overpriced, high octane pouting smurf for a 2nd round pick + Bourque + a prospect, offering a contract to White but not to Pyatt, sticking with Price instead of Halak, the acquisition of Eller and Schultz, convincing Emelin to cross the ocean, promising drafts (Beaulieu, Pribyl, Tinordi, Gallagher...), Cole's signature...

His downfall could be the Markov's signing though. GAWD our current NHL D squad is awful! Hamrlik Where Art Thou?
You can examine it on a trade by trade basis but that really only gives you a very narrow view of what's really going on here.

Look at them from a wholistic perspective. It is a series of short term fixes with no longterm plan. Moore, Wiz, Kaberle, Campoli, Bourque... just band-aids to stop the bleeding.

Where are the top picks and prospects that we should have been trading for? What is the direction of this team? We're no better off than we were three years ago and in fact are in even worse shape now because we've got a bunch of bad contracts that are going to hinder us in the future.

He's taken a bad situation and made it worse.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I'm equally worried with the notion that trading Plekanec is a good idea because the Habs have too many centers and he's got the most value.

I'm really curious, and more than a little worried, about what happens next, but the Habs' few seller moves have generally been good to awesome (Rivet for Gorges + 1st!)
Trading Pleks IS a good idea because he does have the most value. But if we do it for a guy like Rene Bourque and a 2nd rounder then you're right... you should be worried.

The point is to get something good for the future. If we're not doing that then there's absolutely no point in doing this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
It's crazy how much crap is said and repeated, and suddenly is becomes fact. Absolutely nobody knows the input Gauthier had when Gainey was the GM, and criticising the moves of the latter on the former is simply bad faith.

You guys are doing the exam same mistake with Gauthier that you did with JM: you are bashing the guy continuously, without an once of rationality, and it's only when he'll be gone that you'll suddenly realize the situation wasn't as black and white as you made yourself believe.
I never called for JM's head. I wasn't a fan of his from the day he got here but I never really believed he was the real problem. Firing him wasn't a solution and at best would've provided a short term spark to help us improve in the short term... and of course that never happened and we made things even worse with PG bumbling that whole mess.

As for Gauthier... totally different situation. He's actively hurting the team with his short term panic moves. Folks have been calling for his head for a while now but even after the coaching debacle I refrained from doing so. The Cammaleri trade though was the last straw. That was enough to convince me that this guy has no vision for the team. It's a series of short term moves and even in the face of us missing the playoffs he goes out and wastes one of our best assets on a sideways move.

He can gtfo now, he's done enough.

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01-20-2012, 04:11 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Uh... is there a door number 3 that I can choose? Please?

Question is, what GMs are out there right now? Is there somebody GOOD available that we'll want? If not, making a hasty change could be even worse. But we do have to make trades now so it's kind of a weird spot to be in.

If I'm Molson and there's nobody around to step in right away then I go to Gauthier and tie his hands. Tell him he is a seller. Don't let him make any more stupid short term trades and get whatever he can for the vets we have and get the highest picks and prospects he can. No more lateral moves, no more short term fixes...


You can examine it on a trade by trade basis but that really only gives you a very narrow view of what's really going on here.

Look at them from a wholistic perspective. It is a series of short term fixes with no longterm plan. Moore, Wiz, Kaberle, Campoli, Bourque... just band-aids to stop the bleeding.

Where are the top picks and prospects that we should have been trading for? What is the direction of this team? We're no better off than we were three years ago and in fact are in even worse shape now because we've got a bunch of bad contracts that are going to hinder us in the future.

He's taken a bad situation and made it worse.




Trading Pleks IS a good idea because he does have the most value. But if we do it for a guy like Rene Bourque and a 2nd rounder then you're right... you should be worried.

The point is to get something good for the future. If we're not doing that then there's absolutely no point in doing this.

I never called for JM's head. I wasn't a fan of his from the day he got here but I never really believed he was the real problem. Firing him wasn't a solution and at best would've provided a short term spark to help us improve in the short term... and of course that never happened and we made things even worse with PG bumbling that whole mess.

As for Gauthier... totally different situation. He's actively hurting the team with his short term panic moves. Folks have been calling for his head for a while now but even after the coaching debacle I refrained from doing so. The Cammaleri trade though was the last straw. That was enough to convince me that this guy has no vision for the team. It's a series of short term moves and even in the face of us missing the playoffs he goes out and wastes one of our best assets on a sideways move.

He can gtfo now, he's done enough.
I did not like Martin wanted him gone but not this way- with cunny being brought in
i was thinking more a whole regime change at the end of the season any other way especially the way it went was rather useless- although i will say if martin still would have been coach i dont think you would have heard Gauthier say this team needs to get bigger- if martin ever became the Gm - LOL this team would all be Tom Thumbs!!

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Old
01-20-2012, 04:18 PM
  #89
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How can anyone be comfortable KNOWING FULL WELL
Gauthier don't shop our players to the highest bidder!

He didn't with Halak or Cammy...

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01-20-2012, 04:20 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Great post. The Gauthier/management supporters ALWAYS talk about the future. Hell, every team can say the same thing about their prospects.

The last 18 years have been filled with promises that the next two or three years will be the year to win the Cup.......every single year.

Get ready for more Kaberle-esque trades and more signings of Campolis, Diaz's, Woywitkas (has everyone forgotten Woywitka? ) if Gauthier stays.

The Gauthier love affair by fans is strange. The man is a joke and has been a loser everywhere he has been.
I don't know if he was a loser but he didn't have any success at all.
Great post by the way.

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01-20-2012, 04:30 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You can examine it on a trade by trade basis but that really only gives you a very narrow view of what's really going on here.

Look at them from a wholistic perspective. It is a series of short term fixes with no longterm plan. Moore, Wiz, Kaberle, Campoli, Bourque... just band-aids to stop the bleeding.

Where are the top picks and prospects that we should have been trading for? What is the direction of this team?
We're no better off than we were three years ago and in fact are in even worse shape now because we've got a bunch of bad contracts that are going to hinder us in the future.


He's taken a bad situation and made it worse.




Trading Pleks IS a good idea because he does have the most value. But if we do it for a guy like Rene Bourque and a 2nd rounder then you're right... you should be worried.

The point is to get something good for the future. If we're not doing that then there's absolutely no point in doing this.

I never called for JM's head. I wasn't a fan of his from the day he got here but I never really believed he was the real problem. Firing him wasn't a solution and at best would've provided a short term spark to help us improve in the short term... and of course that never happened and we made things even worse with PG bumbling that whole mess.

As for Gauthier... totally different situation. He's actively hurting the team with his short term panic moves. Folks have been calling for his head for a while now but even after the coaching debacle I refrained from doing so. The Cammaleri trade though was the last straw. That was enough to convince me that this guy has no vision for the team. It's a series of short term moves and even in the face of us missing the playoffs he goes out and wastes one of our best assets on a sideways move.

He can gtfo now, he's done enough.

You and me have been saying this for a while.

Problem is we have a GM that is interested in saving his own ass, and an owner without a clue so expect terrible things.

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01-20-2012, 04:41 PM
  #92
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Except for Kaberle Ive been good with Pgs moves. In terms of us being shoppers , which terrifies me, that has to rest on Molsons shoulders. If Molson is saying I want play-offs then PG has no choice.

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01-20-2012, 05:03 PM
  #93
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When PG brought the trade for Kaberle to Molson, he should have fired him on the spot. The whole organization is delusional.
I think he was just giving in to Martin's whining about personnel again

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01-20-2012, 05:05 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Totally agree Andy but think about this

If Molson knows he will can Pierre Gauthier at the end of this season then why on earth does he still want him there making moves especially at this time of the year? The GM that is going to come in might not like his moves or players he picked up and then are going to have to start all over with the new GM's direction. what does that mean, another 3-4-5 years of being mediocre
Maybe it's because Molson is the one telling him to do whatever he can to try to get some playoff revenues.

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01-20-2012, 05:30 PM
  #95
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Maybe it's because Molson is the one telling him to do whatever he can to try to get some playoff revenues.
You know the Internet went on a blackout for 24 hours to protest SOPA & PIPA, maybe Habs fans should unite & go on strike for 1 game?


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01-20-2012, 07:57 PM
  #96
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Totally agree on all accouts as far as Brunet articles. I'm extremely nervous as well. Having said all of that, we have no choice. You just can't hire a guy now. Obviously makes no sense. So let's make the decisions we have to make (Gill, Moen, Kosty) and hope for the best. Lack of movement and to lose all those guys for nothing Gainey style...that's just not good enough either.

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01-20-2012, 09:01 PM
  #97
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Me too. I would be completely shocked if Molson fires Gauthier. As long as the scalpers continue to buy the tickets, everything is wonderful for Molson.

Molson is quickly becoming the Jerry Jones (NFL Dallas Cowboys owner) of the NHL.
That is a pathetic comment

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01-20-2012, 09:35 PM
  #98
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I think what everyone (myself included) is afraid of, is Gauthier trading for a player as if we were a contender.

This is basically my biggest fear right now, he's going to deal Pacioretty, Eller, Subban or high draft picks for another bad contract or over the hill player, setting us back in the long run.

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01-20-2012, 09:45 PM
  #99
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I'll be curious at the next press conference. The goose is cooked. The media can now bring clear numbers to prove the Habs have zero chance to make the playoffs (even if there's no statistical elimination):

a-Habs need to have more points than the other 29 teams for the rest of the way.and
b-For the same time period, Habs needs a better win/loss/OT ratio than the best team NHL was able to accomplish this season.

What's Gauthier gonna answer? We're still trying to make the playoffs?

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01-20-2012, 09:52 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
It's crazy how much crap is said and repeated, and suddenly is becomes fact. Absolutely nobody knows the input Gauthier had when Gainey was the GM, and criticising the moves of the latter on the former is simply bad faith.

You guys are doing the exam same mistake with Gauthier that you did with JM: you are bashing the guy continuously, without an once of rationality, and it's only when he'll be gone that you'll suddenly realize the situation wasn't as black and white as you made yourself believe.
Thing is, just like JM, it doesn't make JM that great of a coach. It either makes Cunneyworth not as incredible as some thought he would be. And keeping JM does not exactly make this team a contender either. It keeps us confortable in a position we are used to. Being able to fight for a playoff spot instead of being out of it. I guess it's better than nothing. But thankfully, it will make people realize what team we have and that relying solely on the PP is not enough anymore.

As far as Gauthier is concerned, well this will always be about speculation. And how can you blame people for doing it? It's not like this organization talks to people. Would have been neat to hear Gauthier once say that he totally approved of the deal, chances are he won't. But he was Gainey's right-hand man. And he was in charge of pro scouting. So at one point, it's not easier to think that Gauthier approved of the deal? You think that it could have totally be against it and Gainey would still have done it? Might not have been what Gauthier would have done as GM, but if you have a say in this org., and CLEARLY voice how it makes no sense, I fail to see how Gainey would have done it anyway. At worst, Gauthier could have said, it's your call. But even this, makes no sense as somebody should have been totally against it. This deal was TOO important so that you didn't have the OK from your best hockey men around. Possible that Gauthier hated Aaron Downey at some point and Gainey said that he would have done it anyway and maybe not even consult Gauthier at this point. But the Gomez deal? And even the smurfs shopping spree? Too important, as far as my liking, to not have a complete and full endorsement by most of the people around. See on the Gomez deal, the other rumor is that Timmins didn't like 'cause he still believed in McDonagh. So again, Gainey would have gone with this without Gauthier AND Timmins? But then, let say he did. If you are Gauthier and see how bad this trade you didn't want ended up and you actually hated the smurfs shoppiong and so on.....why the heck would you need a guy like Gainey around you? It's one thing to be challenged, but you actually want to be challenged by somebody who has some great points to bring. Not somebody you were already mostly not agreeing with for starters. I'm exagerating, of course, but I wouldn't have Mike Milbury as an assistant just because he has some ideas out of the ordinairy and would challenge me on every move I'd be making.

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