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HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time

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Old
12-28-2011, 12:46 AM
  #126
Dasachtach
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Wow, I thought Harvey was around 6'01".

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01-13-2012, 04:13 PM
  #127
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I really have to thank everyone involved in this project, new posts in the discussion topics are pretty much the best things on HFboards right now. It saddens me that I lack the knowledge to take part in the actual discussions, but reading through all the related topics and making my personal top 60 list on the side based on the arguments presented has been both fun and extremely educational.

So keep up the good work guys, at least this lurker greatly appreciates all the effort that goes into making these lists and hopes to see more projects of this nature in the future.

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01-13-2012, 06:54 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andros View Post
I really have to thank everyone involved in this project, new posts in the discussion topics are pretty much the best things on HFboards right now. It saddens me that I lack the knowledge to take part in the actual discussions, but reading through all the related topics and making my personal top 60 list on the side based on the arguments presented has been both fun and extremely educational.

So keep up the good work guys, at least this lurker greatly appreciates all the effort that goes into making these lists and hopes to see more projects of this nature in the future.
I got started on the history board by lurking the 2008 Top 100 project. Now look at me...

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Old
01-13-2012, 10:36 PM
  #129
Hardyvan123
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I got started on the history board by lurking the 2008 Top 100 project. Now look at me...
I got started when I Googled Eric Kuhnhackl kid Tom Kuhnhackl for a scoutign report on him and found a thread.

The funny part is that I had HF on my favorites list for a couple of years and used it quite a bit without realizing the thread section

Now I have no life lol

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Old
01-14-2012, 12:35 AM
  #130
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I got started with... Doctor No goalie trivia

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Old
01-14-2012, 04:24 AM
  #131
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Does anyone know the jersey numbers of Lionel Conacher and Hod Stuart?

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01-14-2012, 11:25 AM
  #132
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I'm pretty sure I saw a photo of Stuart without a number. Of course that doesn't mean he never had one.

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01-14-2012, 11:40 PM
  #133
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Haven't checked in here for a bit.

This is a great list. Love to see where Chelios, MacInnis and Leetch are. I might have to print this off to show my buddy where Pronger stands amonst his peers.

Good work everybody.

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Old
01-18-2012, 11:55 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Distribution of defensemen by year



- I used the seasons in the first post in this thread (i.e Bobby Orr's career spans 1966-1979, so he got credit for playing from the 1966-67 season to the 1978-79 season). I haven't taken into accounts "gaps" in players' careers (i.e. Orr did not actually play during 1977-78 season).

- Starting from 1910-1911 (Cleghorn's roookie season), only one year, 1946-47, fails to include a top twenty defenseman.

- Two consecutive seasons (1983-84 and 1984-85) feature nine of the top twenty defensemen (Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Fetisov, MacInnis, Park, Potvin, Robinson and Stevens).

- Fifteen of the top twenty defenseman (all except Clancy, Cleghorn, Kelly, Seibert and Shore) played at least part of their career after expansion.

More comments/observations welcome.
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I have no idea what program you used to create those graphs. Can anyone make a graph of our top 40 now? Could be useful to see if we are neglecting any eras.

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Old
01-20-2012, 05:35 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Does anyone know the jersey numbers of Lionel Conacher and Hod Stuart?
I'm not sure but I think Conacher wore #12.

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Old
01-22-2012, 09:33 AM
  #137
Dennis Bonvie
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You're 100 percent correct. Unless someone is old enough to have seen two players play from now and the 1930s, the assessments are based on speculation and best guesses. But I think everyone here is aware of that, and due credit should be given that they make amazingly deep efforts to make highly-educated best guesses.

If I have any real disagreement with the approach here, it's two things. One, I think there is generally a severe over-value of longevity and, two, a somewhat head in the sand lack of acknowledgement that said longevity of modern players may be very connected to performance enhancing substances. The idea that they are rampant in every pro league, college, and even at the high school level these days, but somehow don't exist in the NHL seems highly naive. So I personally stick a lot more to peak than many here. Even still, this is my own personal valuation and, as a person who's been playing and watching the game for almost 4 decades, the HOH neck of the woods is as deep in knowledge as any place I've ever seen and the folks here work diligently to be as honest, accurate, and non-biased as humanly possible. Their efforts are impressive to the extent that I barely even post any more but still love coming in here to read the thoughts from these folks. It's great stuff.
Excellent post!

I fully agree on your point about over-value of longevity, but I think modern players' connection to modern medical practices and better drugs that are not necessarily performance enhancing also contribute greatly to prolonged careers. No one seems to want to speculate on what players that played for the Soviet Union may have been using in light of the Soviets inventing steroids for the purpose of athletic enhancement in the 1950s.

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Old
01-22-2012, 02:36 PM
  #138
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The mean height is a bit below 6'1", and the median is 6'0". 89% of the players are between 5'10" and 6'3". King Clancy (5'7") and Zdeno Chara (6'9") are outliers.



I know this graph is tough to read, but it should give everyone a decent overview. The mean weight is 197 lbs, and the median is 194 lbs. 87% of the players are between 180 lbs and 220 lbs. Again, King Clancy (155 lbs) and Zdeno Chara (255 lbs) are outliers.



Thirty-five of the defensemen are Canadian. There are four Americans (Chelios, Leetch, Howe, Langway), three Russians (Fetisov, Vasiliev, Kasatonov), two Swedes (Lidstrom, Salming) and one Slovak (Chara).



This is based on NHL seasons (even though I realize that not every defenseman listed played in the NHL). For example, Harvey's "1947-1969" career span translates into "1947-48" to "1968-69" when I summed the data. There may be some minor errors, but nothing significant.

1983 featured fifteen active players: Savard, Vasiliev, Lapointe, Park, Salming, Robinson, Potvin, Howe, Fetisov, Kasatonov, Langway, Bourque, Coffey, MacInnis and Stevens. Obviously, they weren't all in their primes that particular year. Also note that 1984 featured fifteen active players - Savard retired, but Chelios played his first dozen NHL games.

Twenty-nine of the defensemen (64%) played at least one year after expansion. Only six (13%) player at least one year before the consolidation of all of the professional North American leagues into the NHL in 1925-26 (Shore, Clancy, Cleghorn, Gerard, Stuart, Johnson).

Do any eras look over- or under- represented?


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 01-22-2012 at 02:53 PM.
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Old
01-22-2012, 05:38 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post


This is based on NHL seasons (even though I realize that not every defenseman listed played in the NHL). For example, Harvey's "1947-1969" career span translates into "1947-48" to "1968-69" when I summed the data. There may be some minor errors, but nothing significant.

1983 featured fifteen active players: Savard, Vasiliev, Lapointe, Park, Salming, Robinson, Potvin, Howe, Fetisov, Kasatonov, Langway, Bourque, Coffey, MacInnis and Stevens. Obviously, they weren't all in their primes that particular year. Also note that 1984 featured fifteen active players - Savard retired, but Chelios played his first dozen NHL games.

Twenty-nine of the defensemen (64%) played at least one year after expansion. Only six (13%) player at least one year before the consolidation of all of the professional North American leagues into the NHL in 1925-26 (Shore, Clancy, Cleghorn, Gerard, Stuart, Johnson).

Do any eras look over- or under- represented?
Thanks, interesting graphs. It's interesting that 2011 is the first year since 1921 with only three all-time greats playing. Unless we think that the quality of today's defencemen is really the worst in ninety years, it seems we are underrating some of the players of today. Is the case for Harry Howell really that much stronger than the case for Duncan Keith?

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01-22-2012, 06:07 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
Thanks, interesting graphs. It's interesting that 2011 is the first year since 1921 with only three all-time greats playing. Unless we think that the quality of today's defencemen is really the worst in ninety years, it seems we are underrating some of the players of today. Is the case for Harry Howell really that much stronger than the case for Duncan Keith?
It's very unlikely that Howell has much of a case over Keith but to be fair most of the current guys are still either climbing or in the middle of their peak or prime years.

That being said some of the guys up in round 10, like Howell, Ragulin or Patrick have a very weak case over guys like Keith, Raflaski, Zubov or even Phil Housley for that matter.

The way things are going I'd be very surprised if even 2 of the 4 guys i mentioned even came up with some of the recent trends.

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Old
01-22-2012, 06:15 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I fully agree on your point about over-value of longevity, but I think modern players' connection to modern medical practices and better drugs that are not necessarily performance enhancing also contribute greatly to prolonged careers. No one seems to want to speculate on what players that played for the Soviet Union may have been using in light of the Soviets inventing steroids for the purpose of athletic enhancement in the 1950s.
Two points:

1. Considering that performance enhancing drugs have proved to be a big problem in almost any sport that has taken testing seriously, I see no reason to think that NHL players are more noble than representatives from other sports. Since the NHL has much less testing than most other leagues in most other professional sports, I say it's likely that it's actually more prevalent than in many other sports.

2. The view that the sudden success of the Soviet hockey players in the 70s and 80s can partly be explained by performance enhancing drugs is expressed quite often on this board. Given the wide-spread use of performance enhancing drugs among Soviet athletes in other sports this is a reasonable assumption. On the other hand, as more and more records have been made public we have seen that the star athletes in America in the 80s seem to have been using just as much juice as the athletes from the Eastern bloc countries. Again, what reason do we have to think that North American hockey players would be less likely to cheat than Soviet players? Are they somehow more noble?

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01-22-2012, 06:17 PM
  #142
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
Thanks, interesting graphs. It's interesting that 2011 is the first year since 1921 with only three all-time greats playing. Unless we think that the quality of today's defencemen is really the worst in ninety years, it seems we are underrating some of the players of today. Is the case for Harry Howell really that much stronger than the case for Duncan Keith?
Modern years will always be underrepresented by projects like this because current players haven't yet finished their legacies.

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Old
01-22-2012, 06:27 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Modern years will always be underrepresented by projects like this because current players haven't yet finished their legacies.
Agreed. For example - looking back on 1984, we see that 15 players are in the top 45. Had we actually done this project back in '84, it's almost certain that none of Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Stevens or MacInnis would be voted in (each had five or fewer years in the NHL). Several more players would be borderline to make the top 45 (Kasatonov, Howe, perhaps even Langway and Fetisov).

Any all-time ranking will appear to underrate modern players for the reason that TDMM indicated.

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02-18-2012, 01:47 PM
  #144
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Sorry about the picture sizes, not sure how to fix?



The mean height is marginally over 6'0"; the median is exactly 6'0". Forty-nine of the sixty defensemen (82%) are between 5'10" and 6'2".



The mean weight is 192 pounds; the median is 190 pounds. Chara is the only defenseman heavier than 220 pounds.



Forty-eight of the defenseman are Canadian (80%). There are four Americans (Chelios, Leetch, Howe, Langway), three Russians (Fetisov, Vasiliev, Kasatonov), two Swedes (Lidstrom, Salming), two Czechs (Suchy, Pospisil) and one Slovak (Chara).



Keeping in mind the point I made in the previous post (about why any all-time list will appear to underrate still-active players), I think this is a fairly reasonable reflection of the gradual increase in the talent pool over time.

The era featuring the most elite defenseman spanned from roughly 1978 to 1993. The largest single factor was, IMO, the fact that this coincided with the golden era of American defenseman (Langway and Howe played during that entire span; Chelios started in 1984; Leetch started in 1988).

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Old
02-19-2012, 06:32 PM
  #145
kmad
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Identify yourself, Lauro

http://www.sporcle.com/games/Lauro/h...key-defensemen

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02-19-2012, 11:39 PM
  #146
BenchBrawl
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I still regret not participating , can't wait for the other position's Top 60 to start.

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02-20-2012, 01:02 AM
  #147
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I havn't participate, but I've read most of the discussion. Obviously, we have personal favourite and we can still argue about some selection, but at the end it's an excellent list, and I believe it is a better lit than both Top-100 All-Time we made a few years back.

Kudos!

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02-21-2012, 08:40 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I havn't participate, but I've read most of the discussion. Obviously, we have personal favourite and we can still argue about some selection, but at the end it's an excellent list, and I believe it is a better lit than both Top-100 All-Time we made a few years back.

Kudos!
I have to give a lot of credit to everyone who voted to break this thing up by positions. Originally, I wanted to start by updating the Top 100 list, but doing a defenseman-only list where we could directly compare them to each other made a rigorous analysis possible in a way that we just couldn't do if we included other positions.

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02-21-2012, 08:57 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I have to give a lot of credit to everyone who voted to break this thing up by positions. Originally, I wanted to start by updating the Top 100 list, but doing a defenseman-only list where we could directly compare them to each other made a rigorous analysis possible in a way that we just couldn't do if we included other positions.
I do think you're right - comparing apples to apples makes for a much better process and result.

Great job by all who participated.

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Old
02-21-2012, 09:32 PM
  #150
BenchBrawl
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What is the next position?

I think Center would be great , or RW.

When are we starting this? I suggest after the ATD winner has been announced.

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