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Old
01-22-2012, 01:25 PM
  #26
Chazz Reinhold
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
The Charity point post, he said the Kings would be a bottom feeding team without it. Apparently he thought the Kings would be the only team giving it up.
The Kings are the only team in the Western Conference with double-digits in the "Charity Point" column.

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01-22-2012, 01:33 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Face Wash View Post
2 out of 304 playoff teams made the playoffs despite scoring in the bottom 5 of the league in almost 20 years of hockey. That's less than 1%. That's a large sample size and a pretty easy conclusion.

Hey if you guys wanna do the research and counter mine...that's fine. Easy for this guy to criticize my numbers when he's not willing to crack open a book or even Google something.
It is not about sample size at all, sample size is good. It's about sample. Suppose that you find a stat which says that teams in black/white jerseys don't do well in playoffs and conclude that Kings don't have a chance unless they change jerseys.

Now that was a silly example, because obviously scoring goals has much more to do with winning than color of a jersey. But still it's not everything. The problem of your analysis is, that 95%+ of the teams in that sample size had no chance of making the playoffs because their defense was not even close to what Kings have. You would have to change not the sample SIZE, but the TEAMS you include in that sample, so that the sample consists of teams that are more similar to Kings.

Look, I absolutely agree with you that scoring needs to get better or else Kings chances of making playoffs are not good. They are not as bad as your stat in original post shows, but still they are bad enough that we can't be happy about it. I am especially not happy with the trend I'm seeing in last couple of games, where some guys look like they have been taking vacation again.

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01-22-2012, 01:33 PM
  #28
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1992 - 1993 Kings, Bottom 5 defense, made playoffs
1996-1997 Penguins, Bottom 5 defense, made playoffs
2000-2001 Penguins, Bottom 5 Defense, made playoffs

Holy crap, only 3 teams out of 304 teams have made the playoffs with a bottom 5 defense,

DEFENSE is what makes you make the playoffs!!!

See what only looking at one stat does?

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01-22-2012, 01:34 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
The Kings are the only team in the Western Conference with double-digits in the "Charity Point" column.
In the league actually. EDIT sorry, missed Florida who is tied with 10.

Doesn't matter, he said they would be a bottom feeder without it, without taking points away from other teams is the only way that argument makes sense.

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01-22-2012, 01:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
In the league actually. EDIT sorry, missed Florida who is tied with 10.

Doesn't matter, he said they would be a bottom feeder without it, without taking points away from other teams is the only way that argument makes sense.
The Kings are relying on it too much, though. They don't hand out "Charity Points" in the playoffs for overtime losses, as the Kings learned last season.

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01-22-2012, 01:40 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
The Kings are relying on it too much, though. They don't hand out "Charity Points" in the playoffs for overtime losses, as the Kings learned last season.
No, they don't.

I think the Kings are built for playoff over time though, IF they show up with the effort.

Look at what happens when they show up, Van 4-1, WSH 4-2, etc, the inconsistency of showing up every night, that happens with all young teams as they grow, in all sports.

If they show up, they are built to win.

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01-22-2012, 01:44 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
1992 - 1993 Kings, Bottom 5 defense, made playoffs
1996-1997 Penguins, Bottom 5 defense, made playoffs
2000-2001 Penguins, Bottom 5 Defense, made playoffs

Holy crap, only 3 teams out of 304 teams have made the playoffs with a bottom 5 defense,

DEFENSE is what makes you make the playoffs!!!

See what only looking at one stat does?
how many goals did those teams score? I know for a fact the 92-93 Kings were one of the top offensive teams in the league...sans 99 for most of the season. You're always gunna come back to goals dude. You can't escape it.

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01-22-2012, 01:48 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
It is not about sample size at all, sample size is good. It's about sample. Suppose that you find a stat which says that teams in black/white jerseys don't do well in playoffs and conclude that Kings don't have a chance unless they change jerseys.

Now that was a silly example, because obviously scoring goals has much more to do with winning than color of a jersey. But still it's not everything. The problem of your analysis is, that 95%+ of the teams in that sample size had no chance of making the playoffs because their defense was not even close to what Kings have. You would have to change not the sample SIZE, but the TEAMS you include in that sample, so that the sample consists of teams that are more similar to Kings.

Look, I absolutely agree with you that scoring needs to get better or else Kings chances of making playoffs are not good. They are not as bad as your stat in original post shows, but still they are bad enough that we can't be happy about it. I am especially not happy with the trend I'm seeing in last couple of games, where some guys look like they have been taking vacation again.
I totally appreciate your thoughts, I respectfully disagree with you on that, my hypothesis was about scoring goals and the historical consequences of being a poor offensive team. I'm not comparing the kings to any group per se, I'm just saying historically teams that don't score don't make the playoffs. The relevant sample for that is all playoff teams in the years since a substantial amount of teams actually missed the playoffs.

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01-22-2012, 01:49 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Face Wash View Post
how many goals did those teams score? I know for a fact the 92-93 Kings were one of the top offensive teams in the league...sans 99 for most of the season. You're always gunna come back to goals dude. You can't escape it.
Doesn't matter, we are only looking at one stat, goals against, remember? If you let in less than your opponent, you win, so goals against absolutely is the be all and end all of this.

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01-22-2012, 01:49 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
1992 - 1993 Kings, Bottom 5 defense, made playoffs
1996-1997 Penguins, Bottom 5 defense, made playoffs
2000-2001 Penguins, Bottom 5 Defense, made playoffs

Holy crap, only 3 teams out of 304 teams have made the playoffs with a bottom 5 defense,

DEFENSE is what makes you make the playoffs!!!

See what only looking at one stat does?
So those teams had to have good offense to get into the playoffs i would think!
The bottom line is i think a fantastic goaltender and great defense could contribute to getting a team in the playoffs. I believe Quick is helping this team out significantly at this point. Stats can be challenged but the reality is we need to score more, and there is a decent stat that backs that up. It is just a reality that teams that are last in the league in scoring haven't made out so well over a long period of time in gettting to the playoffs. Most coaches will tell you special teams are imperative to being a contender. Not just pk, we need to improve pp.

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01-22-2012, 01:50 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face Wash View Post
This is for all you "Calm Downers" out there who wonder why people get so angry after a loss even if it was only the 2nd loss in regulation in a month:

Since the League expanded to 24 teams 19 seasons ago (ya know '92-'93, our favorite year), 38 different teams have played in the Stanley Cup Finals. Only 5 of those teams finished in the bottom half of the league offensively during that regular season. The lowest any of those teams ever finished offensively during the regular season was 18th (2010 Flyers of John Stevens ironically).

In that period of time only 2 teams in the bottom 5 of the league offensively EVEN MADE THE PLAYOFFS (1996 Blues & 1998 Senators). Neither of which was DEAD LAST in offense, but certainly in the bottom 5 in GF. That's 2 teams out of 304 playoffs teams that made the playoffs despite being bottom 5 in goals scored and neither was DEAD LAST like the Kings are!

The last team to make the playoffs while being dead last in offense was the 88-89 Canucks (23 years ago) when only 5 teams in the league missed the playoffs.

The chances the Kings even make the playoffs with this offense are atrocious. In fact it would be a league first considering 14 teams will miss the playoffs.

So when the Kings lose at home, scoring 1 goal or get shut out by the worst team in hockey at home or when they pile up the OTLs... have more perspective... look at the overall, it's not good at all and the clock is ticking.


So.... What your saying is that despite all that the Kings are still right in the playoff hunt. If it began today they would be the 7th seed in the tough western conference, and the Kings have the 3rd most points in the league since Sutter's arrival... So what your telling me is the Los Angeles Kings are deafening all odds and are on a miracle run?!?!?

YES!!

GO KINGS GO! GO KINGS GO! GO KINGS GO!!


Stats are funny aren't they?


Listen, I'm not denying this team NEEDS to do something about this offensive. IT SUCKS! really sucks! but.... you need to calm down.... It isn't as bad as this thread makes it seem!

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01-22-2012, 02:00 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by CTKingsFan View Post
So.... What your saying is that despite all that the Kings are still right in the playoff hunt. If it began today they would be the 7th seed in the tough western conference, and the Kings have the 3rd most points in the league since Sutter's arrival... So what your telling me is the Los Angeles Kings are deafening all odds and are on a miracle run?!?!?

YES!!

GO KINGS GO! GO KINGS GO! GO KINGS GO!!


Stats are funny aren't they?


Listen, I'm not denying this team NEEDS to do something about this offensive. IT SUCKS! really sucks! but.... you need to calm down.... It isn't as bad as this thread makes it seem!
The only thing I said about the kings is they're the worst offensive team in hockey. Which is a fact no one can dispute. And if they end the season 30th based on historical data, they would have less than a 1% chance to make the playoffs.

As an edit, I will say that the two teams that made it in from the Bottom 5, none of them played in the current standings/point system. No one in the current system has made the playoffs scoring in the bottom 5 of the league...smaller sample size, but 0%.

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01-22-2012, 02:08 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Face Wash View Post
The only thing I said about the kings is they're the worst offensive team in hockey. Which is a fact no one can dispute. And if they end the season 30th based on historical data, they would have less than a 1% chance to make the playoffs.

As an edit, I will say that the two teams that made it in from the Bottom 5, none of them played in the current standings/point system. No one in the current system has made the playoffs scoring in the bottom 5 of the league...smaller sample size, but 0%.
No one in the current system has made the playoffs with a bottom 5 defense of the league, smaller sample size, but 0%.

Guess the Kings are ok then, they have a top, 5 D, top 10D, somewhere right in there...

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01-22-2012, 02:24 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
No one in the current system has made the playoffs with a bottom 5 defense of the league, smaller sample size, but 0%.

Guess the Kings are ok then, they have a top, 5 D, top 10D, somewhere right in there...
Ya know, when you do your homework it's amazing what you find...

in 2011 New Jersey had the 8th best defense... missed the playoffs
in 2010 Calgary had the 6th best Defense...missed the playoffs
in 2010 New York Rangers had the 9th best defense...missed the playoffs
in 2009 Minnesota was the 2nd best defensive team in the league...missed the playoffs
in 2009 Florida was the 10th best defensive team in the league...missed the playoffs

That's 5 good or great defensive teams that MISSED THE PLAYOFFS in just the last 3 seasons... wow... I'm gunna keep going.

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01-22-2012, 02:30 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Face Wash View Post
Ya know, when you do your homework it's amazing what you find...

in 2011 New Jersey had the 8th best defense... missed the playoffs
in 2010 Calgary had the 6th best Defense...missed the playoffs
in 2010 New York Rangers had the 9th best defense...missed the playoffs
in 2009 Minnesota was the 2nd best defensive team in the league...missed the playoffs
in 2009 Florida was the 10th best defensive team in the league...missed the playoffs

That's 5 good or great defensive teams that MISSED THE PLAYOFFS in just the last 3 seasons... wow... I'm gunna keep going.
In 2009, Minnesota had the 21st ranked defense....you might want to check your stats there bud...

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01-22-2012, 02:31 PM
  #41
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in 2008 Vancouver was the 7th best defense...missed the playoffs
in 2008 Columbus was the 9th best defense...missed the playoffs
in 2006 Minnesota was the 5th best defense...missed the playoffs

wow that's 8 teams 5 post lockout years that played great D and missed the playoffs...I wonder why? lets keep going..

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01-22-2012, 02:31 PM
  #42
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BTW,

in 2008, Atlanta, Buffalo, and Toronto had the 8th, 10th, and 11th ranked offense, ALL missed the playoffs...

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01-22-2012, 02:32 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Face Wash View Post
in 2008 Vancouver was the 7th best defense...missed the playoffs
in 2008 Columbus was the 9th best defense...missed the playoffs
in 2006 Minnesota was the 5th best defense...missed the playoffs

wow that's 8 teams 5 post lockout years that played great D and missed the playoffs...I wonder why? lets keep going..
In 2008 Columbus made the playoffs....

Buddy, are you feeling ok?

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01-22-2012, 02:36 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
In 2009, Minnesota had the 21st ranked defense....you might want to check your stats there bud...
according to Hockeydb.com & NHL.com... in 2008-2009 Minnesota gave up 2.4 goals per game only Boston gave up fewer. No apology necessary.

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01-22-2012, 02:38 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Face Wash View Post
according to Hockeydb.com & NHL.com... in 2008-2009 Minnesota gave up 2.4 goals per game only Boston gave up fewer. No apology necessary.
That's 2008....but thanks for playing,

In 2008-2009, Like I said, ATL, BUF and TOR had the 8th, 10th, and 11th, ranked offenses, and missed the playoffs....

No apology necessary..

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01-22-2012, 02:39 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
In 2008 Columbus made the playoffs....

Buddy, are you feeling ok?
I am... they had 80 points & ranked 13th. 2007-2008

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01-22-2012, 02:40 PM
  #47
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I am... they had 80 points & ranked 13th. 2007-2008
That's 2007....

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01-22-2012, 02:41 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
That's 2008....but thanks for playing,

In 2008-2009, Like I said, ATL, BUF and TOR had the 8th, 10th, and 11th, ranked offenses, and missed the playoffs....

No apology necessary..
no. it's 2009... you note the year the championship was played and when the standings ended, not began.

That doesn't debunk anything I've asserted... but the fact that good defensive teams don't make the playoffs unless they score goals too debunks yours.

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01-22-2012, 02:42 PM
  #49
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That's 2007....
no, it's 2008

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01-22-2012, 02:44 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Face Wash View Post
no. it's 2009... you note the year the championship was played and when the standings ended, not began.

That doesn't debunk anything I've asserted... but the fact that good defensive teams don't make the playoffs unless they score goals too debunks yours.
LOL Wow, are you new to the sport?

wow...

And absolutely it does, you say having a top ranked offense means you make the playoffs, I just showed you three in the SAME YEAR that didn't,

How again didn't that debunk your claim?

Anyways, why the hell am I arguing with a fan who started watching hockey when Gretzky came around....

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