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Trading outside the division

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Old
01-22-2012, 06:51 PM
  #1
palindrom
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Trading outside the division

Let say you got two offers for a X player

The best offer is a 1st round 20th overall from a team inside your division.

Second best offer is a 2nd round 31th overall, this offer come from a team of the other conference.

Would you settle up with the second offer just to avoid trading inside the division?

and by the way how can i edit this thread to make it a pool?

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01-22-2012, 07:04 PM
  #2
Ho Borvat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post

and by the way how can i edit this thread to make it a pool?
Just add water

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01-22-2012, 07:06 PM
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palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerousdan85 View Post
Just add water
Only water? is it not safer to use Chlorine too?

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01-22-2012, 07:06 PM
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Ho Borvat
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But in all honesty it depends on the player goingthe other way and if its a rental.

Ie if Vancouver offered 120th pick for Tim Jackman instead of 150th I could see it. Not an impact player and a rental.

If it were someone like Iginla it would be a whole nother story

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01-22-2012, 07:09 PM
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palindrom
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Originally Posted by dangerousdan85 View Post
But in all honesty it depends on the player goingthe other way and if its a rental.

Ie if Vancouver offered 120th pick for Tim Jackman instead of 150th I could see it. Not an impact player and a rental.

If it were someone like Iginla it would be a whole nother story
then let say its a player like Schneider next summer.

Edmonton offer 20th overall

Tampa bay offer 31th overall


Or we could use Iginla too, Should Calgary accept a weaker offer from a team like Toronto than a team like Vancouver?

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01-22-2012, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
then let say its a player like Schneider next summer.

Edmonton offer 20th overall

Tampa bay offer 31th overall


Or we could use Iginla too, Should Calgary accept a weaker offer from
a team like Toronto than a team like Vancouver?
Vancouver hangs up on both Edmonton and TB. Reallistically, If they HAD to trade Schneider, they'd probably take the 31st pick. You don't want a player of Schneider's capability playing against you 6 times a year.

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01-22-2012, 07:29 PM
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palindrom
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Vancouver hangs up on both Edmonton and TB. Reallistically, If they HAD to trade Schneider, they'd probably take the 31st pick. You don't want a player of Schneider's capability playing against you 6 times a year.
1. its not assured that schneider would start the 6 game.
2. All division could be modified.
3. it could be only for a year then Schneider coudl walk away as UFA. alternatively Schneider coul be deal outside the division then sign as UFA summer 2013 with a division team. (even Kaberle is now playing with Montreal! and Toronto could not do anything about it!).

4. In this example, Edmonton also dont want their future 1st round choice to play against them 6 time per year. But they would settle for it for the reason #5

5. IMO it have a greater positive impact to trade for the best player, who could play with your team 82 games per year than accepting the weaker offer just to avoid to face a player 6 time a year.


Last edited by palindrom: 01-22-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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Old
01-22-2012, 07:40 PM
  #8
Ho Borvat
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I would take the 20th from Edm and not the 31st. The 11 spots in the draft would likely have a bigger impact on this team than facing Schneider 6 times.

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01-22-2012, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
1. its not assured that schneider would start the 6 game.
2. All division could be modified.
3. it could be only for a year then Schneider coudl walk away as UFA. alternatively Schneider coul be deal outside the division then sign as UFA summer 2013 with a division team. (even Kaberle is now playing with Montreal! and Toronto could not do anything about it!).

4. In this example, Edmonton also dont want their future 1st round choice to play against them 6 time per year.
1. Schneider should be starting every game against threats if he got traded to Edmonton. He would be their best goaltender, and being able to read the players (former teammates) gives him a little bit of an edge. Management should play him.

2. Vancouver and Edmonton are pretty much stuck together. That really won't be changed.

3. Stuff happens, you get the best possible deal. Oh and Kaberle got traded to Boston (withing the division) then signed as an FA to Carolina before being traded back into the division. So really, Toronto didn't care, Kaberle is not a big enough threat to worry about.

4. 20th draft pick is nobody, it can be anyone, and at 20, it typically will not be a game breaker.

Anyway it seems like you have an answer and want it to be seen by coming up with really obscure counter points to what is being said. Basically if they have game breaking talent, get them out of the division or conference. If they don't have game breaking talent, then get the best offer.

Examples, Ottawa trading Heatley to San Jose (after trying Edmonton) compared to Ottawa trading Kelly to Boston. That is of course unless the deal is absolutly crazy value (see Kessel to Toronto, where Boston gets probably more value than they could have gotten elsewhere.)

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01-22-2012, 07:41 PM
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palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerousdan85 View Post
I would take the 20th from Edm and not the 31st. The 11 spots in the draft would likely have a bigger impact on this team than facing Schneider 6 times.
then lets make it more difficult:

What if it become the difference between the 25th overall or the 30th ?

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01-22-2012, 07:48 PM
  #11
palindrom
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Originally Posted by xking23 View Post
1. Schneider should be starting every game against threats if he got traded to Edmonton. He would be their best goaltender, and being able to read the players (former teammates) gives him a little bit of an edge. Management should play him.

2. Vancouver and Edmonton are pretty much stuck together. That really won't be changed.

3. Stuff happens, you get the best possible deal. Oh and Kaberle got traded to Boston (withing the division) then signed as an FA to Carolina before being traded back into the division. So really, Toronto didn't care, Kaberle is not a big enough threat to worry about.

4. 20th draft pick is nobody, it can be anyone, and at 20, it typically will not be a game breaker.

Anyway it seems like you have an answer and want it to be seen by coming up with really obscure counter points to what is being said. Basically if they have game breaking talent, get them out of the division or conference. If they don't have game breaking talent, then get the best offer.

Examples, Ottawa trading Heatley to San Jose (after trying Edmonton) compared to Ottawa trading Kelly to Boston. That is of course unless the deal is absolutly crazy value (see Kessel to Toronto, where Boston gets probably more value than they could have gotten elsewhere.)
I just wonder, what if Ottawa had a better deal for Heatley inside the division? what if Boston had a better one for Thorthon?

Did that make them right to accept a lower offer to send them outside the division?

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01-22-2012, 07:56 PM
  #12
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Take the best offer. There is no telling the player you traded is going to stay with the team he is traded to.

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01-22-2012, 07:56 PM
  #13
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Most teams only care about the "inside the division" thing if its a gamebreaker. Something crazy like the Phaneuf, Thornton or Kovalchuk trades. Looking at prospects or guys who aren't superstars in this situation, I don't think most teams give a rats behind, they want the best deal they can get.

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01-23-2012, 12:52 AM
  #14
palindrom
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just for fun the difference between a 20th and 31th overall

I bolted the one who add a NHL career

Year 20th - 31th
1986 - Kerry Huffman - Mike Posma (Bust)
1987 - Dareen Rumble (193gp) - Daniel Lacroix (188gp)
1988 - Eric Charron (130gp) - Russ Romaniuk (102gp)
1989 - Steven Rice - Rick Corriveau (Bust)
1990 - Martin Brodeur - Felix Potvin
1991 - Martin Rucinsky - Martin Hamrlik (Bust)
1992 - David Wilkie (167gp) - Denis Metlyuk (Bust)
1993 - Mike Wilson - Scott Langkow (Bust)
1994 - Jason Botterill (Bust 88gp) - Jason Podollan (Bust)
1995 - Denis Gauthier - George Laraque
1996 - Marcus Nilson - Remi royer (Bust)
1997 - Mike Brown (Bust) - Jeff Zehr (Bust)
1998 - Scott parker (308gp) - Artem Chubarov (228gp)
1999 - Barrett Heisten (Bust) - Charlie Stephens (Bust)
2000 - Alexander Frolov Ilya Nikulin (Bust)
2001 - Marcel Goc (389gp) - Matthew Spiller (68gp)
2002 - Daniel Paille Jeff Deslauriers (53gp)
2003 - Brent Burns - Danny Ricjmond (49gp)
2004 - Travis Zajac - Johannes Salmonsson (Bust)
2005 - Kenndal Mcardle (33gp) - Brendan Mikkelson (86gp)
2006 - David Fisher (Bust) - Tomas Kana (6gp)
2007 - Angelo Esposto (prospect Bust?) - T.J. Brennan (prospect)
2008 - Michael del Zotto - Jacob Markstrom (Elite Prospect)

According to this short sample, a 20th overall have a bit more than 55% (13/23) to have a NHL carreer
a 31th overall ? maybe around 8-20% (2/23) (depending of the future of Markstrom, kanna, Brennan and Mikkelson)


Last edited by palindrom: 01-23-2012 at 01:02 AM.
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02-11-2012, 09:39 PM
  #15
palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Vancouver hangs up on both Edmonton and TB. Reallistically, If they HAD to trade Schneider, they'd probably take the 31st pick. You don't want a player of Schneider's capability playing against you 6 times a year.
As André Savard said publicly after trading Hackett from Montréal to SJ (Hackett was traded flipped the same day by SJ to Boston.)

" That belonged into the diagram. The only way that we could prevent Hackett from going to Boston, was to keep him in Montreal, answered Savard "

The only way Vancouver can be sure Schneider wont play for a division rival is to keep him. Based on that, i think getting the best offer for a player is the right choice, even if it come from a division rival.

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02-11-2012, 09:41 PM
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Rental: Best offer

non-rental: Out of division

/thread

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Old
02-11-2012, 09:48 PM
  #17
palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennrocks View Post
Rental: Best offer

non-rental: Out of division

/thread
Was Boston Wrong to send Kessel to Toronto and right to send Thorthon to the other conference?

Going back to the past, should Boston accept a lower offer for Kessel to send him outside the division, so Boston doesnt have to face Kessel 6 times per year.

Going back into the past, would Boston mind to get a better offer for Thorthon but sending him to Ottawa or Montreal instead of San Jose?

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02-11-2012, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Was Boston Wrong to send Kessel to Toronto and right to send Thorthon to the other conference?

Going back to the past, should Boston accept a lower offer for Kessel to send him outside the division, so Boston doesnt have to face Kessel 6 times per year.

Going back into the past, would Boston mind to get a better offer for Thorthon but sending him to Ottawa or Montreal instead of San Jose?
Considering the way Kessel's played against Boston so far in his career (off the top of my head, a goal, a shootout goal, and a few assists), I don't think they're losing sleep over that trade.

Is the team you're trading the player to a contender? Boston probably doesn't trade Thornton to Montreal, considering the Habs were a strong team a few years ago... Ottawa didn't really have a need for Thornton considering they had Spezza. Buffalo wouldn't have had the budget, and Toronto wouldn't have had the assets.

Age of the player matters too. The Ducks don't trade Bobby Ryan to the Sharks because he's only 24, signed to a long-term deal, and hurts them for years to come. They theoretically think about trading Selanne to the Sharks because he's 41, a pending UFA, and possibly about to retire.


Last edited by Briecheeze: 02-11-2012 at 10:19 PM.
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Old
02-11-2012, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Was Boston Wrong to send Kessel to Toronto and right to send Thorthon to the other conference?

Going back to the past, should Boston accept a lower offer for Kessel to send him outside the division, so Boston doesnt have to face Kessel 6 times per year.

Going back into the past, would Boston mind to get a better offer for Thorthon but sending him to Ottawa or Montreal instead of San Jose?
Boston was a top tier team. If Toronto was a constant 4th place team in conference that was neck and neck with Boston in division, do you honestly think that trade would have happened? Of course not.

Good example is all these really good divisional offers for Jeff Carter. As tempting as they are, trading a star player in division for 10 years is lunacy. Rental is fine, because you aren't competing that year, but I'm sure you wouldn't mind competing in the next 10 years.

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02-12-2012, 04:07 AM
  #20
palindrom
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Boston was a top tier team. If Toronto was a constant 4th place team in conference that was neck and neck with Boston in division, do you honestly think that trade would have happened? Of course not.

Good example is all these really good divisional offers for Jeff Carter. As tempting as they are, trading a star player in division for 10 years is lunacy. Rental is fine, because you aren't competing that year, but I'm sure you wouldn't mind competing in the next 10 years.
Gretzky was traded to a division Rival. I can honestly think think that Boston didn't care about Toronto ranking.

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02-12-2012, 05:35 AM
  #21
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Devils could of had a 2013 2nd from Philly for Langenbrunner.

They took a conditional 3rd from Dallas.

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Old
02-12-2012, 05:46 AM
  #22
palindrom
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Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
Devils could of had a 2013 2nd from Philly for Langenbrunner.

They took a conditional 3rd from Dallas.
you pick my curiosity, do you have a link? What was the condition?

I just dont see the reason, NJ was out of the playoffs, Langenbrunner was an upcoming UFA. So why not take the best offer?

Edit: as i see it the conditional 3th had the possibility to become a 2nd if Dallas resigned Langenbrunner, or if they make it to the second round.
NJ didnt really took the lowest offer, they gambled Dallas offer was better because of the condition, but lost their gamble.


Last edited by palindrom: 02-12-2012 at 05:56 AM.
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02-12-2012, 10:43 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Gretzky was traded to a division Rival. I can honestly think think that Boston didn't care about Toronto ranking.
Completely different situation. The Gretzky trade wasn't because of hockey considerations - Peter Pocklington needed money, and LA was the only team willing to pay that kind of cash straight up.

It's not a great comparison for any other trade since - that was a one-of-a-kind deal.

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02-12-2012, 11:57 AM
  #24
palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briecheeze View Post
Completely different situation. The Gretzky trade wasn't because of hockey considerations - Peter Pocklington needed money, and LA was the only team willing to pay that kind of cash straight up.

It's not a great comparison for any other trade since - that was a one-of-a-kind deal.
Let me rewind this, Teams wont never ever make a division trade.

Unless

1 - Team need money
2 - The players involved is not an impact player.
3 - If its an impact player, its ok, if he is old.
4 - Its ok too if he is a upcoming UFA
5 - Its ok to trade to division rival, if the rival is not a competitive team
6 - its ok is one of a kind deal.


Would not it be simpler to just admit teams doesn't mind to make division trade, or i need to keep coming with examples, and people will keep coming with the ''but this is an exceptional circumstance'' explanation?

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02-12-2012, 12:09 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Gretzky was traded to a division Rival. I can honestly think think that Boston didn't care about Toronto ranking.
Well, basing an argument on the best player ever who was traded for millions of dollars, isn't the most credible of arguments. If Carter gets traded for 20 million, we can revisit this discussion. Give me a deal where that kind of money isn't involved.

You think Boston didn't care? So Boston would have no problem trading Phil Kessel for two late first round picks on a divisional contender as opposed to two more realistically top 10 picks? Surely you can't be serious... REALLY?

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