HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Kaberle playing time

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-22-2012, 12:18 AM
  #276
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,856
vCash: 500
Are you guys seriously arguing over 3-4 points when trying to figure out whether or not Kaberle is a 50-point defenseman???

One Man Rock Band is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 12:36 AM
  #277
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Are you guys seriously arguing over 3-4 points when trying to figure out whether or not Kaberle is a 50-point defenseman???
I think it's pretty obvious at this point that the "investigation" into his "worth", and the "50 point" label by extension, has gone well beyond the simplicity of those 3-4 points.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 05:10 AM
  #278
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lxzred View Post
But not Kaberle's current pace of 0.55 ppg since joining the Habs cause that doesn't support your argument.

He's "obviously" on the decline, oh wait, maybe not.
48 1 19 20 -12

Here are Kaberle's numbers. Now welcome to reality, he's not even on a 40 point pace, so my friend, it is you who is arbitrarily selecting his brief stint with the habs to trot out this 50 point dman crap. For nearly every point he records he also records a minus.

Those numbers don't represent a 50 point player. MAB has more points in fewer games and is +8 on a team where basically everybody is a negative. Spin as you wish, but 20 points in 48 games doesn't represent a 50 point pace by any definition, Kaberle is past his prime already, he's out of shape, soft as butter and putrid defensively.

I'd take MAB easily over him at this point in their careers.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 07:38 AM
  #279
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,646
vCash: 500
After a horrible stretch Kaberle has gotten better, on both ends.

The thing with his contract...a lot depends on Markov. I just can't seriously expect Markov to be the same defender he was when and if he comes back. If we lose Markov, Kaberle is necessity going forward and suddenly the trade looks great.

Et le But is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 07:59 AM
  #280
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
After a horrible stretch Kaberle has gotten better, on both ends.

The thing with his contract...a lot depends on Markov. I just can't seriously expect Markov to be the same defender he was when and if he comes back. If we lose Markov, Kaberle is necessity going forward and suddenly the trade looks great.
Disagree, at best if Markov doesn't return it's not as bad, but if he does it's terrible. We need dman who can defend too, right now we're short on them. When Kabs goes 10 games without a point like he will inevitably do, the bandwagon will be full. Hopefully Ohashi and myself save you all a seat.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 09:20 AM
  #281
Kjell Dahlin
Registered User
 
Kjell Dahlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Québec, Québec
Posts: 1,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Barely even noticed he was out there (until the "last minute" tripping penalty)... which isn't always bad when talking about Kaberle.
True that!

Next game, you should take a few seconds to observe him: he really is more involved, he communicates a lot more (especially with our young D) and... he no longer wears a double chin!

Kjell Dahlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 10:39 AM
  #282
Frank Doby
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 146
vCash: 500
Kaberle is a good fit for the CH. We will have one of the best power play in the league when Markov will return. Imagine: Markov, Kaberle, Rene Bourque, David Desharnais and Eric Cole. Wow*.

This guy will finish with 40-45 pts this year, after a very bad start this season... and some on this board do not like him. What else more do you need?

Frank Doby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 11:13 AM
  #283
lxzred
Registered User
 
lxzred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 312
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Disagree, at best if Markov doesn't return it's not as bad, but if he does it's terrible. We need dman who can defend too, right now we're short on them. When Kabs goes 10 games without a point like he will inevitably do, the bandwagon will be full. Hopefully Ohashi and myself save you all a seat.
So if I read between the lines you think Markov is a defensive liability...is that right?

lxzred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 11:27 AM
  #284
donghabs98
Moderator
 
donghabs98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,780
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Doby View Post
Kaberle is a good fit for the CH. We will have one of the best power play in the league when Markov will return. Imagine: Markov, Kaberle, Rene Bourque, David Desharnais and Eric Cole. Wow*.

This guy will finish with 40-45 pts this year, after a very bad start this season... and some on this board do not like him. What else more do you need?
they need him to get 70points lead the team to the playoffs and win a playoff round

donghabs98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 12:03 PM
  #285
donghabs98
Moderator
 
donghabs98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,780
vCash: 50
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...739&highlight=

i found this looking back at my old threads

donghabs98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 12:06 PM
  #286
Kjell Dahlin
Registered User
 
Kjell Dahlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Québec, Québec
Posts: 1,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by donghabs98 View Post
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...739&highlight=

i found this looking back at my old threads
That is an old thread from 5-10 years ago! Oh... wait...

Spacek eh?


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 01-22-2012 at 12:15 PM.
Kjell Dahlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 12:47 PM
  #287
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lxzred View Post
So if I read between the lines you think Markov is a defensive liability...is that right?
No, not at all. Markov is what kaberle is offensively, even better imo, and being miles ahead defensively. With Markov in the lineup we have no use for Kaberle, Markov does everything better. Without Markov, I can see an argument for Kabs offense being an asset, even if I don't agree with it.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 12:54 PM
  #288
lxzred
Registered User
 
lxzred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 312
vCash: 500
Good, that would have seamed even more ridiculous than the "Kaberle is inept in the offensive zone" post

lxzred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 02:50 PM
  #289
PricePkPatch
Registered User
 
PricePkPatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,886
vCash: 500
Why's really killing me is the contract length argument. If he was going to finish his contract this season, people would have grumbled we spent asset to get one more rental.

PricePkPatch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 03:02 PM
  #290
lxzred
Registered User
 
lxzred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 312
vCash: 500
I also love how all of a sudden Spachek is an asset instead of an unmovable ridiculous contract.

lxzred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 03:09 PM
  #291
PricePkPatch
Registered User
 
PricePkPatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lxzred View Post
I also love how all of a sudden Spachek is an asset instead of an unmovable ridiculous contract.
That too

We got one of the best puck-moving defenseman of the league against a bag of pucks and a player we moaned about for 3 years.

PricePkPatch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 03:55 PM
  #292
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
That too

We got one of the best puck-moving defenseman of the league against a bag of pucks and a player we moaned about for 3 years.
Welcome to 2012, it's not 2009 anymore. When you catch up, let us all know.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 06:26 PM
  #293
PricePkPatch
Registered User
 
PricePkPatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Welcome to 2012, it's not 2009 anymore. When you catch up, let us all know.
If you actually want to say something, say it. Don't play coward behind innuendos and half-arguments.

Otherwise, just shut up and let actual posters argue.

PricePkPatch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 06:35 PM
  #294
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
If you actually want to say something, say it. Don't play coward behind innuendos and half-arguments.

Otherwise, just shut up and let actual posters argue.
Well, you referred to Kaberle as one of the best "puck-moving defensemen" in the league. I don't know who your ranking list includes, or what the criteria for selection is, but I'd be curious to hear how Kaberle is close enough to the top to be considered "one of the best". And I don't think habsjunkie is necessarily wrong for pointing out to you that such an opinion wouldn't have been as disputed in, say, 2009 as it is in more recent times.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 10:29 PM
  #295
PricePkPatch
Registered User
 
PricePkPatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, you referred to Kaberle as one of the best "puck-moving defensemen" in the league. I don't know who your ranking list includes, or what the criteria for selection is, but I'd be curious to hear how Kaberle is close enough to the top to be considered "one of the best". And I don't think habsjunkie is necessarily wrong for pointing out to you that such an opinion wouldn't have been as disputed in, say, 2009 as it is in more recent times.
Last time I checked, he was paid a hefty price less than a year ago for his puck-moving skills. He's had problems with the Bruins and the Canes, which seriously damaged his reputation, but he seems to be showing more of his traditional flair with the Habs than with either teams.

I don't think his skills have evaporated overnight after the trade to Boston. He just had a hard time changing and adapting his play.

He sure is a much better passer and playmaker defensemen than anybody else on our team playing at the moment. He doesn't shoot *that* well (although color me surprised at the result of the skill competition), but it's about the only offensive fault you can find him.

He's been one of the best not long ago. Bar incredible psychological damage due to the trades, I think the talent is still there.

PricePkPatch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 11:31 PM
  #296
Habit11
Registered User
 
Habit11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, you referred to Kaberle as one of the best "puck-moving defensemen" in the league. I don't know who your ranking list includes, or what the criteria for selection is, but I'd be curious to hear how Kaberle is close enough to the top to be considered "one of the best". And I don't think habsjunkie is necessarily wrong for pointing out to you that such an opinion wouldn't have been as disputed in, say, 2009 as it is in more recent times.
I wasn't a big fan of the deal, and think there is some truth to him being on the decline, but also some slight exaggeration as to the extent of that decline, but if you'd consider assist totals ranked by dmen since the lockout a decent indicator of puck moving ability he's done well. Just assists, not points.

2011 - 5th
2010 - 7th
2009 - injury shortened season, assists per game would have him 10 - 15th over a full season
2008 - 5th
2007 - 4th
2006 - 3rd

His prime was certainly 06 - 08, and his game has dropped off a bit since then imo because he stalls the game more than he should, and slows down plays too often. You could however, extrapolate a 43 assist season based on his assists per game with the Habs, but that's probably too small of a sample.

Habit11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2012, 12:40 AM
  #297
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habit11 View Post
I wasn't a big fan of the deal, and think there is some truth to him being on the decline, but also some slight exaggeration as to the extent of that decline, but if you'd consider assist totals ranked by dmen since the lockout a decent indicator of puck moving ability he's done well. Just assists, not points.

2011 - 5th 26th (25, 58%)
2010 - 7th 24th (22, 52%)
2009 - injury shortened season, assists per game would have him 10 - 15th over a full season
2008 - 5th 6th (23, 53%)
2007 - 4th 14th (28, 60%)
2006 - 3rd 4th (45, 78%)
See, I have the same stats as the rest of you. But what I've done above is add Even Strength Assists ranking + (PP assists/% of assists) in bold next to your list. Like I've been saying from the beginning, there's no doubt that the guy can pass the puck - well enough, in fact, that even as his ES ice time has gone down over recent years, he continues to rank top 5 perennially in PP Time On the Ice, and consequently still fairly high in overall TOI.

The guy is obviously still useful on the PP, where time and space afford him better passing situations. But realize that 50-60% of his assists in any given year stem from the fact that he played more PP minutes than everyone in the league (not just his team) except between 1 and 4 players every one of those years. Plenty of time for a puck moving defenseman to pick up 2nd assists, and not necessarily indicative of how "good" he is for a team, unless you're on a team with ample cap space that lives and dies by the powerplay and/or has 4 other solid guys holding down the fort at ES.

Since '08/09, he has gone from being a top 10 assists contributor at ES to almost dropping out of the top 30. I've never gone as far as to say that Kaberle is "horrible". But I stand by my opinion that if the Habs wanted to get better, a $4+ million powerplay guy probably wasn't the way to go; especially not one on the decline who exhibits a lot of reluctance to shoot the puck, and has become quite uncommitted and ineffectual in the defensive zone at ES.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habit11 View Post
His prime was certainly 06 - 08, and his game has dropped off a bit since then imo because he stalls the game more than he should, and slows down plays too often. You could however, extrapolate a 43 assist season based on his assists per game with the Habs, but that's probably too small of a sample.
Totally agree with what you say about stalling/slowing down the play. On top of that, he's getting to be as easy to read/predict as Gomez, which is obviously a bad thing. If Markov ends up retiring, I guess it won't hurt to have a guy like him around - he does have a good first pass (when he's making the simple plays, and not trying to thread it through traffic). I just don't see it as a good move in a year where there seemed to be opportunity and money available to move forward without taking risks on aging and still relatively expensive reclamation projects. And, since the majority of the game is played at ES, I'd rather give $4+ million (+ term) to someone that doesn't make me cross my fingers for good luck at ES (slight exaggeration).

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2012, 01:04 AM
  #298
Habit11
Registered User
 
Habit11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
See, I have the same stats as the rest of you. But what I've done above is add Even Strength Assists ranking + (PP assists/% of assists) in bold next to your list. Like I've been saying from the beginning, there's no doubt that the guy can pass the puck - well enough, in fact, that even as his ES ice time has gone down over recent years, he continues to rank top 5 perennially in PP Time On the Ice, and consequently still fairly high in overall TOI.

The guy is obviously still useful on the PP, where time and space afford him better passing situations. But realize that 50-60% of his assists in any given year stem from the fact that he played more PP minutes than everyone in the league (not just his team) except between 1 and 4 players every one of those years. Plenty of time for a puck moving defenseman to pick up 2nd assists, and not necessarily indicative of how "good" he is for a team, unless you're on a team with ample cap space that lives and dies by the powerplay and/or has 4 other solid guys holding down the fort at ES.

Since '08/09, he has gone from being a top 10 assists contributor at ES to almost dropping out of the top 30. I've never gone as far as to say that Kaberle is "horrible". But I stand by my opinion that if the Habs wanted to get better, a $4+ million powerplay guy probably wasn't the way to go; especially not one on the decline who exhibits a lot of reluctance to shoot the puck, and has become quite uncommitted and ineffectual in the defensive zone at ES.

Totally agree with what you say about stalling/slowing down the play. On top of that, he's getting to be as easy to read/predict as Gomez, which is obviously a bad thing. If Markov ends up retiring, I guess it won't hurt to have a guy like him around - he does have a good first pass (when he's making the simple plays, and not trying to thread it through traffic). I just don't see it as a good move in a year where there seemed to be opportunity and money available to move forward without taking risks on aging and still relatively expensive reclamation projects. And, since the majority of the game is played at ES, I'd rather give $4+ million (+ term) to someone that doesn't make me cross my fingers for good luck at ES (slight exaggeration).
Pretty much agree with everything you've said. It definitely makes sense to include the even strength assist rankings, especially when you look at his rankings from 06 - 08, and thereafter. Although, I also wasn't really making a strong case for Kaberle as an excellent puck mover, but merely chiming in on the conversation with a mild defence.

I wasn't a fan of acquiring his salary, and you are correct that that cap space could have been used differently.

Habit11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2012, 01:47 AM
  #299
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habit11 View Post
Pretty much agree with everything you've said. It definitely makes sense to include the even strength assist rankings, especially when you look at his rankings from 06 - 08, and thereafter. Although, I also wasn't really making a strong case for Kaberle as an excellent puck mover, but merely chiming in on the conversation with a mild defence.

I wasn't a fan of acquiring his salary, and you are correct that that cap space could have been used differently.
But see, that case can actually be made, and that's not even what I have argued at length about. People can be amazed at his point/assist totals all they want, but they don't want me to show how reliant he has become on powerplay opportunities (and LOTS of them) to get them, and how his impact at ES is fairly far from the Kaberle we thought we saw in Toronto all these years. And I'm really surprised at the resistance to my observation that his play is declining.

Didn't need any stats to notice, personally (his past coaches, via the media, should have been a pretty big hint for ANYone; whether they've seen him or not), but I totally understand how his overall ranking in points/assists has lots of people (who haven't seen the ES/special teams breakdown) confused as to where I'm coming from here. All of that severely affects my perception of his worth anyway, let alone considering where the team is right now. Struggling to put together a top 4 that can hold down all 3 zones for 20+ mins each every night and keep pucks out of the net, and $4+ million/year gets invested in the next few years of Kaberle?? Give me a break.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 01-23-2012 at 06:06 AM. Reason: poor grammar at such hours
Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2012, 02:38 AM
  #300
Habit11
Registered User
 
Habit11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
But see, that case can actually be made, and that's not even what I have argued at length about. People can be amazed at his point/assist totals all they want, but they don't want me to show how reliant he has become on powerplay opportunities (and LOTS of them) to get them, and how his impact at ES is fairly far from the Kaberle was thought we saw in Toronto all these years. And I'm really surprised at the resistance to my observation that his play is declining.

Didn't need any stats to notice, personally (his past coaches, via the media, should have been a pretty big hint for ANYone; whether they've seen him or not), but I totally understand how his overall ranking in points/assists has lots of people (who haven't seen the ES/special teams breakdown) confused as to where I'm coming from here. All that severely affects my perception of his worth anyway, let alone considering where the team is right now. Struggling to put together a top 4 that can hold down all 3 zones for 20+ mins each every night and keep pucks out of the net, and $4+ million/year gets invested in the next few years of Kaberle?? Give me a break.
I can't speak for others, but I rarely think to look at a defencemen's EV numbers because there's a number of things I'll look at first as they pertain to defence even if the player is an offensive dman. TOI, Sh/TOI, blocks, hits, PIMs, quality of opposition, if they carry their partner or get carried, things like that...

If they are an offensive guy like Kaberle, I really don't care where the offence comes from as long as it's there, and hope that the coach exploits his strengths, and protects his weaknesses while not hurting the club at the same time. Having said that, it's important to be cautious that you aren't paying a one dimensional defenceman more than what they are worth, like you've correctly pointed out. Then you have an immovable object if that one dimension of their game no longer exists, hence the reason Rutherford was offering a 2nd along with Kaberle to move him.

I think PG concerned himself with the immediate short term, and figures he can deal with salary/cap implications in the off-season. In his mind, he probably saw who was available, saw his job on the line, and acquired the cheapest player available to fill that role. At least a draft pick or prospect wasn't lost in the acquisition.

Habit11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:23 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.