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Who's the better defenseman? Jovonovski or McCabe?

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Old
12-29-2005, 04:56 PM
  #126
Yes Im Peter Ing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
Is he still a minus or near even?

If so, that backs up my opinion that hes hot ****loads of points on the PP (which I said I take him over Jovo) but other areas leave a lot to be desired.
Yes, this year McCabe is bordering on a minus rating. But in every year prior with the Leafs, McCabe has been a plus-player, and by quite a wide margin too.

It should also be noted that McCabe's defensive efforts in the early portion of this season were hindered by an offense that, by Quinn's own admission, was dreadful when it came to tracking back and helping out in their own zone.

My point is not that McCabe is some defensive wizard. But rather that the +/- stat you use to back up your opinion is murky at best. At that's without achnowledging that +/- is sketchy even at the best of times.

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Old
12-29-2005, 05:07 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by In_Todd_we_trust
Jovanoski.

He has experience, has won at the international level, and has been consistent over the past few years.

Leaf homers can cry all they want, pointing to Mc Cabe's stats this season, but until he puts up another few seasons of this calibur of play, Jovo-cop takes it.
What if I pointed to two other seasons: 2003/04 and 2001/02?

I think the consistency argument is all but moot by now. Early in his career McCabe struggled without the benefit of stability. He's stated that the process of being bounced around (not to mention being handed the Isles' captaincy at a young age - that's my assumption though) from team to team hurt him, and the long-term stability he's found in Toronto has helped him establish himself. I think it's also worth mentioning that defensemen generally develop at a slower pace than offensive players.

With three strong years out of four under his belt, I think it's safe to say that McCabe is no fluke. He's hardly a Hall of Fame candidate, but as far as the current crop of defensemen goes, he's pretty much entrenched near the top of the heap.

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Old
12-29-2005, 07:27 PM
  #128
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hey guys, McCabe is now up to +3.

October: -4
November: +4
December: +3

looks like anyone who 's depending on his +/- rating to "prove" that McCabe is bad defensively is barking up the wrong tree.


Quote:
So far this season I would take McCabe over Jovanovski. Looking at the past 5 seasons I would go with Jovanovski.
Last 5 Seasons:

McCabe: 351gms, 57gls, 193pts, +66
Jovanovski: 321gms, 48gls, 192pts, +9

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Old
12-30-2005, 01:51 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke
hey guys, McCabe is now up to +3.

October: -4
November: +4
December: +3

looks like anyone who 's depending on his +/- rating to "prove" that McCabe is bad defensively is barking up the wrong tree.
I dont need stats to prove hes bad defensively, Ive seen him make so much more mistakes and be responsible for more goals than any other 1st pairing D men.

He just has way too many brainfarts (like leaving a man in front alone to go and help Kaberle out in the corner, he wasnt withing 40 feet of his man when he scored) to be considered a good defensive player.

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Old
12-30-2005, 03:26 AM
  #130
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I am a Calgary fan so I must hate Jovo more than McCabe. Never the less Jovo can join the Flames anytime he wants too. He gets booed in Calgary alot for a reason. He is good, much better than McCabe. Do you think we boo him cause he sucks? Were trying to get him off his game.

I feel dirty for supporting a Canuck player. Yuck!

Yet Team Canada roster? There were a few games when Jovo looked great in the olympics. 7 games vs Calgary in the playoffs he was a thorn. Do I respect Jovo? Yes, McCabe? Not at all.

Edit: As a Calgary fan please ignore this post, Jovo sucks and always will LOL!

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Old
12-30-2005, 03:57 AM
  #131
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McCabe is better IMHO.Has a lot more points,and plays in my team!))

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Old
12-30-2005, 04:00 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke
Last 5 Seasons:

McCabe: 351gms, 57gls, 193pts, +66
Jovanovski: 321gms, 48gls, 192pts, +9
Thats a superior points per game stat in favor of Jovanoski.

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Old
12-30-2005, 05:44 AM
  #133
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I'm no fan of either player, but I would pick McCabe as the better d-man. He has a slightly better offensive game and they are both just as bad on defense.

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12-30-2005, 06:02 AM
  #134
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I don't want to get into this becaust I haven't watched McCabe play enough, but this post is hilarious:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleemans
I'd take Jovo.

McCabe is great on the PP, but otherwise I think he's overrated.

I just hope if he ends up playing in Olympics, he stops taking stupid penalties.
Only because the bolded sentence is a perfect succinct description ... of Ed Jovanovski.

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Old
12-30-2005, 06:07 AM
  #135
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Jovo is one of my favorite players so many of you guys will think I am extremely biased. Perhaps I am but I really don't think this is a debate. The hockey world through and through thinks Jovo is better than McCabe. Every Team Canada event, Jovo gets picked before McCabe and this trend is still carried on today.

It is funny to see all the Leafs fans hail McCabe right now. My gut feeling is that Jovanovski will sign with Toronto this off-season when he becomes an UFA. I bet a year from now, every Toronto fan will rank Jovo above McCabe.

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Old
12-30-2005, 08:19 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Ryan
I don't want to get into this becaust I haven't watched McCabe play enough, but this post is hilarious:

Only because the bolded sentence is a perfect succinct description ... of Ed Jovanovski.
Precisely.

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Old
12-30-2005, 05:49 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yes Im Peter Ing
With three strong years out of four under his belt, I think it's safe to say that McCabe is no fluke. He's hardly a Hall of Fame candidate, but as far as the current crop of defensemen goes, he's pretty much entrenched near the top of the heap.
Near the top of the heap. Hmmmm......that is an interesting comment

Take a quick look at the Olympic rosters. Assume for a moment that the nice fellas that put together Team Canada actually can assess hockey talent. Well, that'd be 7 guys right there better than McCabe.

Without getting into a pi$$ing match about it, you have the

Czechs - Frantisek Kaberle, Hurricanes; Tomas Kaberle, Maple Leafs; Filip Kuba, Wild; Pavel Kubina, Lightning; Marek Malik, Rangers; Jaroslav Spacek, Blackhawks; Marek Zidlicky, Predators.
Slovaks - Zdeno Chara, Senators; Milan Jurcina, Bruins; Ivan Majesky, Capitals; Andrej Meszaros, Senators; Martin Strbak, CSKA Moscow; Radoslav Suchy, Blue Jackets; Lubomir Visnovsky, Kings.
Swedes - Christian Backman, Blues; Kim Johnsson, Flyers; Kenny Jonsson, Rogle; Niklas Kronwall, Red Wings; Nicklas Lidstrom, Red Wings; Mattias Norstrom, Kings, Mattias Ohlund, Canucks.
Finns - Aki Berg, Maple Leafs; Toni Lydman, Flames; Teppo Numminen, Sabres; Joni Pitkanen, Flyers; Sami Salo, Canucks; Kimmo Timonen, Predators; Ossi Vaananen, Avalanche.
Russians - Andrei Markov, Canadiens; Alexei Zhitnik, Islanders; Darius Kasparaitis, Rangers; Fedor Tyutin, Rangers; Danny Markov, Predators; Anton Volchenkov, Senators; Sergei Gonchar, Penguins; Dmitri Bykov, Dynamo Moscow.
Americans - Chris Chelios, Red Wings; Derian Hatcher, Stars; Jordan Leopold, Flames; John-Michael Liles, Avalanche; Aaron Miller, Kings; Brian Rafalski, Devils; Mathieu Schneider, Red Wings.

If you would consider McCabe, ON AVERAGE, to be good enough to be the # 3 D man on each of these teams, well, that would be another 12 guys better than McCabe.

If you do not consider McCabe, ON AVERAGE, to be good enough to be the # 3 D man on these teams, well, then, pretty soon he becomes more of a top 25 D Man.

I bolded a few names that I think are certainly worthy of being discussed in the same sentence as McCabe. And frankly I did that without being too critical because there are still alot of names that I didn't bold that are pretty darn good playrs. Personally, I'd say that McCabe as a "near top of the heap" defencemen is crediting him with a bit much.

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12-31-2005, 03:40 PM
  #138
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I am a leafs fan yet I still think JOVO is better. McCabe is only good for the powerplay. He still allows more goals when he's on the ice then he can possibly score. If it wasn't for the obstruction rules and like 99% increase in penalties and power plays (I madethat up obviously) then he wouldn't be scoring much.Therefore there is a reason why he wasn't chosen for the olympic squad. The real one that is. Good decision.

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Old
12-31-2005, 04:23 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
All you have to do is watch tonights Vancouver/Nashville game to realize how good Jovovski is/can be...
which is about once every three or four games.

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Old
12-31-2005, 04:27 PM
  #140
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Kubina > McCabe

McCabe > Gonchar


I prefer McCabe to Jovo. They are similar players, 2 dimensional (hitting, offense), prone to bumbles and giveaways.

But McCabe is better in my opinion.

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12-31-2005, 07:12 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scugs
And 99% of the other teams fans pick the player in question, so what is your point?

Or are Leaf fans not allowed to be biased?

When Leaf fans are biased, it is because they are stupid Leaf fans. And it is an unwritten law on HFBoards that all Toronto fans are stupid homers with no knowledge or concern about anything outside of Lake Ontario's north shore.

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Old
12-31-2005, 07:16 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assasin05
I am a leafs fan yet I still think JOVO is better. McCabe is only good for the powerplay. He still allows more goals when he's on the ice then he can possibly score. If it wasn't for the obstruction rules and like 99% increase in penalties and power plays (I madethat up obviously) then he wouldn't be scoring much.Therefore there is a reason why he wasn't chosen for the olympic squad. The real one that is. Good decision.

I agree. On the PP, there are few I'd rather have than McCabe. But he can be a liability in his own zone, and has given me MASSIVE indigestion in the past.

And I'm not going to even bring up the dreaded '04 playoffs...

I'm not saying Jovo is reminding me of Doug Harvey, but he is IMO better defensively than McCabe. (However, Jovo is certainly not the best defensive D-man on his own team.)

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Old
12-31-2005, 07:47 PM
  #143
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Well Jovo is finally starting to play to his potential in the month of December. He physically dominated so many people in December, and his defensive lapses have been under control.

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Old
01-01-2006, 11:48 AM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
I dont need stats to prove hes bad defensively, Ive seen him make so much more mistakes and be responsible for more goals than any other 1st pairing D men.

He just has way too many brainfarts (like leaving a man in front alone to go and help Kaberle out in the corner, he wasnt withing 40 feet of his man when he scored) to be considered a good defensive player.
Jovo is just as prone to said brainfarts. Neither player will ever be confused with Serge Savard. Considering Jovo has been on better teams the last 5 years, the difference in plus minus is telling as to who is better defensively.

As I stated earlier, the only area where Jovo has an edge right now is physical play.

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01-01-2006, 04:03 PM
  #145
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Quote:
If you would consider McCabe, ON AVERAGE, to be good enough to be the # 3 D man on each of these teams, well, that would be another 12 guys better than McCabe.

If you do not consider McCabe, ON AVERAGE, to be good enough to be the # 3 D man on these teams, well, then, pretty soon he becomes more of a top 25 D Man.

I bolded a few names that I think are certainly worthy of being discussed in the same sentence as McCabe. And frankly I did that without being too critical because there are still alot of names that I didn't bold that are pretty darn good playrs. Personally, I'd say that McCabe as a "near top of the heap" defencemen is crediting him with a bit much.
from your list there, McCabe would be, ON AVERAGE, the #1 D man on these teams.


to claim that McCabe is NOT "near the top of the heap" is a much harder claim to defend.

considering that McCabe finished 4th in Norris trophy voting last season, and if the voting was held right now, would probably finish higher than that.

I'd say that's pretty good support for the fact that McCabe is "near the top of the heap".

As would be the fact that he's dominating defenseman scoring stats.

As would be the fact that he's a top-10 +/- defenseman in the NHL since he became a leaf.

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Old
01-01-2006, 04:20 PM
  #146
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[QUOTE=zeke]I'd say that's pretty good support for the fact that McCabe is "near the top of the heap".
QUOTE]

First off, McCabe being "near the top of the heap" is not a fact. It is your opinion. Secondly, this entire debate comes down to one's opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

What I have said is that in the collective opinions of those people that put together Team Canada, McCabe is not one of our top 7 D man. That doesn't make it a fact, it is just the opinion of a group of people put together to assemble Canadian talent.

On that list of bolded names, I would not trade McCabe straight up for any of Tomas Kaberle, Chara, Lidstrom, Pitkanen, or Timonen. And that is without thinking twice about it. There are several others on that list that I would have to think long and hard about whether I would trade them straight up for McCabe.

So, this debate we are having, re top of the heap really comes down to your definition of the phrase. I personally do not consider McCabe better than any of the 7 that made Team Canada. I also personally do not consider him to be a better player than any of the 5 I just mentioned.

You can go on all you like about facts. This is about opinions. There is no fact that proves McCabe is a "top of the heap" D man.

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Old
01-01-2006, 10:45 PM
  #147
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Quote:
First off, McCabe being "near the top of the heap" is not a fact. It is your opinion
not exactly true.

there's three different supports to the claim that McCabe is "near the top of the heap":

1) The opinion of those who vote for NHL trophies.
2) All the objective stats and numbers.
3) my opinion.

There's only one support to the claim that McCabe is NOT "near the top of the heap":

1) your opinion

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01-02-2006, 07:11 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke
not exactly true.

there's three different supports to the claim that McCabe is "near the top of the heap":

1) The opinion of those who vote for NHL trophies.
2) All the objective stats and numbers.
3) my opinion.

There's only one support to the claim that McCabe is NOT "near the top of the heap":

1) your opinion
How bout the opinion of McCabe's coach? Not too much lobbying from Quinn for McCabe's inclusion on Team Canada.

This is an unresolvable debate. You are a fan of McCabe - good for you. I'm not. Good for me. Lets just leave it at that.

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01-02-2006, 12:42 PM
  #149
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That's a copout. One of our opinions clearly has more support.

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Old
01-02-2006, 04:31 PM
  #150
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no - it isn't a copout. I just want to leave it alone but you don't get it.

McCabe didn't make the Olympic Team in 06 or in 02. He didn't make the World Cup team in 04 either. Those my poor man are facts. Those teams are assembled by some of our finest hockey minds. They don't think McCabe belongs in the mix. McCabe's coach obviously doesn't put up much of a fight about it either.

There are a number of international defencement that are better than McCabe, and sorry but that's the truth. Lidstrom and Chara for starters. Most of your own Nation doesn't consider McCabe as important as Kaberle. Right there you have 10 D Man better than McCabe.

I'd give you top 10 as being near the top of the heap but when a guy isn't in the top 10 in the league, well, what more need be said.

And one of our opinions clearly does have more support. This entire thread is about Jovo vs McCabe. Without counting, I'd suspect Jovo is ahead. Factor out the Leaf bias and he is likely way ahead.

McCabe not being one of Canada's top D Man? Well, that is my opinion. It also happens to be the opinion of the guys who put together Team Canada. And it would seem it is an opinion that they have held for a number of years. But, next time I'm talking to Wayne I'll be sure to tell him that there is a guy on HF Boards that knows more about hockey than anyone I have ever heard of and that this guy thinks McCabe is the man.

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