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01-23-2012, 11:32 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by RIPRichardsCarter View Post
It's actually a perfect analogy. He went to the person he felt would handle the situation correctly.
And if thats all you need to do to clear your conscience then theres something wrong in this world.

I can't believe the notion that exists among people that if it isnt their problem, why deal with it?

Because its another helpless human being being **** on. In that analogy, if your boss does nothing, sure you're not legally obliged to do anything, but as I said in my other post, I would certainly hope the vast majority wouldn't accept that as having "Properly handled" the situation.

Boss does nothing, you go to the next guy, and the next until something is done. Its even worse with kids who are manipulated by sicko's like Sandusky to believe that what is happening to them is wrong, and you as an adult, who knows better are just leaving them hanging, essentially empowering the molestation of a helpless kid.

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01-23-2012, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
And if thats all you need to do to clear your conscience then theres something wrong in this world.

I can't believe the notion that exists among people that if it isnt their problem, why deal with it?

Because its another helpless human being being **** on. In that analogy, if your boss does nothing, sure you're not legally obliged to do anything, but as I said in my other post, I would certainly hope the vast majority wouldn't accept that as having "Properly handled" the situation.

Boss does nothing, you go to the next guy, and the next until something is done. Its even worse with kids who are manipulated by sicko's like Sandusky to believe that what is happening to them is wrong, and you as an adult, who knows better are just leaving them hanging, essentially empowering the molestation of a helpless kid.
People acting like Paterno is somehow being unfairly questioned about this are just proving people's point about Paterno and PSU, that football came first, everything else came second. I can't imagine another situation where a guy does little to nothing, admits he knew and wishes he did more, but people will defend him and act like people are somehow "hating" on the guy for it. JoePa had to go when all this came out and he doesn't get a free pass. It doesn't take away from his reputation as a football coach, but he also isn't absolved of his wrong doing because of his reputation as a FOOTBALL COACH.

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01-23-2012, 12:07 PM
  #28
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Okay, you're right (that's what you want to hear, right?) Not going to argue. In my humble opinion Joe Paterno was still a great and very positively influential man.

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01-23-2012, 12:14 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by RIPRichardsCarter View Post
Okay, you're right (that's what you want to hear, right?) Not going to argue. In my humble opinion Joe Paterno was still a great and very positively influential man.
I don't think anyone is saying he isn't. He just made a pretty big mistake. Good people make bad decisions all the time. That doesn't excuse the bad, nor does it erase the good.

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01-23-2012, 12:21 PM
  #30
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I don't think anyone is saying he isn't. He just made a pretty big mistake. Good people make bad decisions all the time. That doesn't excuse the bad, nor does it erase the good.
I never said it wasn't a mistake. He just did what he felt was right at the time. It just hurts that his name is so tarnished by the scandal. It almost seems like people blame Paterno more than Sandusky himself.

(Reacted on emotion yesterday, sorry).

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01-23-2012, 12:29 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by RIPRichardsCarter View Post
I never said it wasn't a mistake. He just did what he felt was right at the time. It just hurts that his name is so tarnished by the scandal. It almost seems like people blame Paterno more than Sandusky himself.

(Reacted on emotion yesterday, sorry).
When the allegations are this serious, regardless of the person, their name will forever be linked to it. A lot of people suffered because a lot of people messed up. Obviously Sandusky is the real root of the problem, but from the top down at Penn State, it appears they all blew it. From McQueary, to Paterno, to Spanier, to anyone else involved. Each of them messed up, allowing Sandusky to continue to do what he was doing.

It does suck because Paterno's image up to this point was essentially perfect. And he has done so much good for that university and people connected to it. But it also seems like, not just in this case, that the university and Paterno himself put football before the university. This just being the biggest and most publicized incident (I know people connected to the football team and even before this whole ordeal they told me stories about players getting away with pretty much everything. That probably happens at all big schools, but that doesn't make it ok). He'll always be a coaching legend, but his image has taken a big hit, and rightfully so. Everyone else who was involved took a hit too, they just didn't have as far to fall.

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01-23-2012, 12:51 PM
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This sums it up pretty well...

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When asked years ago what his epitaph should be, Paterno said, “I hope they write I made Penn State a better place, not just that I was a good football coach.” We will write that because it’s true. But we cannot leave it at that.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/footbal...licated_012212

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01-23-2012, 05:53 PM
  #33
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ok, lets say you are a boss of a company, or a manager, and you see something like that happen, and you go tell the McDonalds Security what happened. If they ignore it, don't you start to question everything? He just shrugged his shoulders and said oh well, i reported what i had to and thats it. If he was a real man, he would have noticed nothing was done and quit his job or said something more, that simple. He shrugged his shoulders.

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01-23-2012, 05:56 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by jagrgodr View Post
ok, lets say you are a boss of a company, or a manager, and you see something like that happen, and you go tell the McDonalds Security what happened. If they ignore it, don't you start to question everything? He just shrugged his shoulders and said oh well, i reported what i had to and thats it. If he was a real man, he would have noticed nothing was done and quit his job or said something more, that simple. He shrugged his shoulders.
Pushing it further would have resulted in a tarnishing of his and his program's image.

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01-23-2012, 06:02 PM
  #35
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Pushing it further would have resulted in a tarnishing of his and his program's image.
LOL and? He could have retired without saying anything.

I respect him for manning up and telling the campus police. I do not respect him for letting it go. I don't know how long ago he reported it, but if he stayed for more than a year with no action by the campus police, i do not think that is right. This isn't catching someone smoking pot in the locker room. This is ****** young children. How many people committed suicide, or had their lives ruined because of what the rapist did? And how many lives could have been saved if he went to the media about this after the campus police didn't do anything?

It's crazy. CRAZY. ABSOLUTELY INSANITY.

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01-23-2012, 06:07 PM
  #36
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Yeah. That's my point. We saw what his priorities were.

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01-23-2012, 06:09 PM
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ok Gotcha, didn't mean to sound like i was attacking you. Glad you agree with me.

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01-23-2012, 09:38 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Remember him and mourn all you want, but don't act like the man never did anything wrong. The football world lost a legend today, but just because he was a legend doesn't mean he gets a pass.
like it's really necessary to remind everyone about something that just came to light 2 months ago. if you lose someone close to you, do you want people bringing up the most negative thing about them within 24 hours of their death? that's what you're doing here.

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01-23-2012, 09:44 PM
  #39
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He was a man devoted to his family, his university, his players and his community.
To his family, players and coaching staff, no one doubts. He was a legend in the SPORT of football. He wasn't perfect, but he indeed had his loyalties.

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01-23-2012, 09:46 PM
  #40
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LOL and? He could have retired without saying anything.

I respect him for manning up and telling the campus police. I do not respect him for letting it go. I don't know how long ago he reported it, but if he stayed for more than a year with no action by the campus police, i do not think that is right. This isn't catching someone smoking pot in the locker room. This is ****** young children. How many people committed suicide, or had their lives ruined because of what the rapist did? And how many lives could have been saved if he went to the media about this after the campus police didn't do anything?

It's crazy. CRAZY. ABSOLUTELY INSANITY.
first thing - your suggestion that joe paterno should have gone to the media is absolute insanity. what's he going to do, hold a press conference that he received a report from a graduate assistant that there was probably inappropriate conduct between a former coach and a young boy? sounds like a great plan. what if mcqueary was wrong about what he saw? what does paterno say when the media asks him more questions? "sorry, that's all the information i got, go talk to mcqueary or sandusky?" you want to say he should have followed up multiple times with campus police, fine, but to say he should have gone to the media is mindbogglingly stupid.


second, do you know anyone who has suffered significant child abuse? i'm guessing no. i do. the way that you (and the media) speak about them is ignorant and moronic. yes, the abuse does affect people long after it happens. but yes, a huge number of child abuse victims go on to live normal, well-adjusted lives, holding down stable jobs, marrying, having children, etc. stop telling child abuse victims that their lives have been ruined. the answers to your questions are "probably none" ("How many people committed suicide") and "fewer than you think" ("or had their lives ruined because of what the rapist did?")

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01-23-2012, 09:50 PM
  #41
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Those boys are ruined forever. They will NEVER recover.
WRONG WRONG WRONG, please stop. if you care so much, volunteer at a hotline for suicidal people or to counsel abuse victims. you might learn something about abuse and how people recover from it.

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01-23-2012, 10:27 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by jagrgodr View Post
ok, lets say you are a boss of a company, or a manager, and you see something like that happen, and you go tell the McDonalds Security what happened. If they ignore it, don't you start to question everything? He just shrugged his shoulders and said oh well, i reported what i had to and thats it. If he was a real man, he would have noticed nothing was done and quit his job or said something more, that simple. He shrugged his shoulders.
well this is just a God-awful analogy. the boss or manager of mcdonalds is a superior to mcdonalds security (whatever the hell that is); the athletic director is superior to all coaches within the athletic program. paterno didn't witness the incident firsthand, which is just an enormous difference. he had a somewhat vague (by mcqueary's own admission, he watered it down out of respect for the coach/old man) account of a possible crime.

i argue that it's difficult to know what to do. i think he should have followed up with curley and this was where he failed. i don't think that he could follow up with random detectives. he didn't have a firsthand account and one has to be delicate in a situation involving alleged child abuse, because child abusers are (rightfully) regarded as the lowest of the low in our society. it's joe paterno, he's a pretty big deal in state college, and if someone like that keeps asking questions, word is going to get out. you just can't allow that to happen, ruining the life and reputation of someone, holding just a second-hand account.

you want to argue that he should have done more, fine. but let's keep some perspective. sandusky is (allegedly) the real monster here. curley and schultz also failed miserably in their responsibilities as athletic director and overseer of campus police, respectively. mcqueary witnessed the incident firsthand and told a head coach rather than the police. it's silly to treat everyone with the same degree of culpability.

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01-24-2012, 06:53 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
like it's really necessary to remind everyone about something that just came to light 2 months ago. if you lose someone close to you, do you want people bringing up the most negative thing about them within 24 hours of their death? that's what you're doing here.
Yeah, you're right. Because he died no one should mention anything he ever did wrong. Let's just pretend like he was perfect and forget about all those kids.

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01-24-2012, 07:03 AM
  #44
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Yeah, you're right. Because he died no one should mention anything he ever did wrong. Let's just pretend like he was perfect and forget about all those kids.
he died TWO DAYS AGO. say a close family member of yours died two days ago; he lived a generally good life, but one time while drunk he knocked a girlfriend. do you think it would be decent of people to say "hey sorry about such-and-such, he did beat up that girl though."

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01-24-2012, 07:12 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
he died TWO DAYS AGO. say a close family member of yours died two days ago; he lived a generally good life, but one time while drunk he knocked a girlfriend. do you think it would be decent of people to say "hey sorry about such-and-such, he did beat up that girl though."
If someone I loved did something that has garnered this much attention in the national news media, there really wouldn't be much I could do about it. I think someone that isn't in the national spotlight who hits a girl is slightly different than a public figure who many feel looked the other way when he was told of child ******. Not to mention the fact that it happened so recently. It's not like people are digging up something that happened in the 70s. This is an ongoing ordeal. People are going to talk about it. It's sad that he died because he was a coaching legend, but you can't just ignore this situation because he died and it makes you sad.

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01-24-2012, 07:17 AM
  #46
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also, let's try to remember that this wasn't osama bin laden. it's not jerry sandusky, where you can't talk about his death without discussing that he was the coach of a national championship defense and accused of sexually assaulting numerous young boys. joe paterno had a second-hand account of a possible sexual assault, researched what he was legally expected to do upon receiving notification of such an incident, and followed this legal obligation (including notifying an administrator who was in charge of campus police). if he erred, it was in not following up with police or administrators. but make no mistake, numerous other people were were more responsible, both legally and morally. so give it a rest about "forget about all those kids," like joe paterno was somehow singularly responsible for the terrible things that went on.

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01-24-2012, 07:28 AM
  #47
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If someone I loved did something that has garnered this much attention in the national news media, there really wouldn't be much I could do about it. I think someone that isn't in the national spotlight who hits a girl is slightly different than a public figure who many feel looked the other way when he was told of child ******. Not to mention the fact that it happened so recently. It's not like people are digging up something that happened in the 70s. This is an ongoing ordeal. People are going to talk about it. It's sad that he died because he was a coaching legend, but you can't just ignore this situation because he died and it makes you sad.
right. literally nobody is saying that the situation should be ignored, but maybe you could at least wait until he's in the ground and people have grieved a little bit before you constantly harp on this child ******* (by the way, there are less appalling terms to use than this).

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01-24-2012, 07:30 AM
  #48
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Pushing it further would have resulted in a tarnishing of his and his program's image.
Because that's all that matters there - the image of the football program - because of the money it brings in.

All of the things Paterno lovers say he stood for - integrity, values, etc. - garbage. When Paterno's integrity and values and love for kids were put to the hardest test imaginable - when children's lives were at risk on HIS campus - in HIS buildings under HIS watch - he folded. He folded and did NOTHING. I don't want to hear this "uh I told my boss"

Good job Joe - you did what your lawyers said was all you had to do to avoid prosecution.

I don't give a **** about football wins. He left a legacy of shame.

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01-24-2012, 07:36 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
he died TWO DAYS AGO. say a close family member of yours died two days ago; he lived a generally good life, but one time while drunk he knocked a girlfriend. do you think it would be decent of people to say "hey sorry about such-and-such, he did beat up that girl though."
I wonder if you would post that if it was your little brother that had been repeatedly ***** for 9 years after the head of the program was first informed of what was happening.

9 years. But you probably come from a decent family and have a father/people around you that would believe your little brother. These boys were targeted just like the priests do - poor troubled kids without stable families.

You should read the grand jury report - on an empty stomach - and see how similar that is to hitting your girlfriend.

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01-24-2012, 07:45 AM
  #50
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I wonder if you would post that if it was your little brother that had been repeatedly ***** for 9 years after the head of the program was first informed of what was happening.

9 years. But you probably come from a decent family and have a father/people around you that would believe your little brother. These boys were targeted just like the priests do - poor troubled kids without stable families.

You should read the grand jury report - on an empty stomach - and see how similar that is to hitting your girlfriend.
i've read the grand jury report. as i mentioned, i've also been close to someone who was systematically sexually abused. get off your moral high horse and stop acting like you are more opposed to something that everyone is horrified by, just because you're louder about it.

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