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Dreger: Canadiens interested in Roy

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Old
01-23-2012, 01:58 PM
  #201
Zip15
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
correction:
My position on Derek Roy has been vindicated
So can I take the position right now that Thomas Vanek is the primary problem on the team and then declare that I've always been correct about him if in two years he becomes a 55-point player and the board and fanbase want him traded? Because I'd love to buy low on that position right now and then declare myself as the only person who was correct for all that time.

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01-23-2012, 02:20 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
So, as GM of a contending team, you look at Derek Roy's body of work over the last 5 years (including the playoffs and lack of playoffs)... and you trade a 1st round pick for him? Especially coming off the dismal performance so far this year?

I've disliked Derek Roy for too many years to be unbiased.
1st round picks from contending teams get traded for less than Roy almost every single year. Don't act like it doesn't happen. Roy should easily return a 1st +.

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01-23-2012, 02:50 PM
  #203
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I've said all along that Ovechkin was a scrub. Now I'm vindicated.

/checkmate

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01-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
So can I take the position right now that Thomas Vanek is the primary problem on the team and then declare that I've always been correct about him if in two years he becomes a 55-point player and the board and fanbase want him traded? Because I'd love to buy low on that position right now and then declare myself as the only person who was correct for all that time.
you can do whatever you please.

Roy and Ruff did not become the problem this year, they've been the problem all along.

You can remain in denial about that, or you can simply continue to react to the present.

matters not to me.

PLENTY of people saw the same thing I saw. You've spent a lot of the last few years calling them idiots.

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01-23-2012, 03:12 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
you can do whatever you please.

Roy and Ruff did not become the problem this year, they've been the problem all along.

You can remain in denial about that, or you can simply continue to react to the present.

matters not to me.

PLENTY of people saw the same thing I saw. You've spent a lot of the last few years calling them idiots.
I think you fail to make a simple distinction: that one can be correct about something in the present, but having been wrong about it in the past, or vice versa.

Thus, I will now take the position that Vanek's sporadic laziness is the primary problem with this organization. And at some point in the next 2.5 years, I will declare myself correct and "vindicated," and state that I've been right all along.

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01-23-2012, 03:54 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Why would Montreal deal Plekanec?

They are in a similar spot to the Sabres with a severe lack of depth at center with Gomez playing worse than any high priced Sabre.

Montreal wants to add Roy to Plekanec and Eller.
There was speculation that the deal would be a swap of the 2 so thats what I was going with...

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Old
01-23-2012, 04:43 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I think you fail to make a simple distinction: that one can be correct about something in the present, but having been wrong about it in the past, or vice versa.

Thus, I will now take the position that Vanek's sporadic laziness is the primary problem with this organization. And at some point in the next 2.5 years, I will declare myself correct and "vindicated," and state that I've been right all along.
I will hold you to that position then... of course I know you are being feces-ish. You would never take a position that wasn't crystal clear, never looking at more then what's right in front of you.

I do find it rather fulfilling to see you arguing the "it's easier to change the coach, then change the whole core/roster/players" POV now. A case I made relentlessly over the last few years, only to be beaten back by your opinion (shared by the majority) that Ruff needed better players to work with.

The complete meltdown of this team does not happen overnight. The seeds have been their for many years. You think Ruff needs to go NOW, I thought he had to go years ago so we didn't end up here. You think Roy needs to go now, I thought he was a problem on and off the ice years ago.

Just like I thought letting Tallinder go was as big a mistake a Briere/Drury, as his impact on Myers development was critical. Myers development has since stalled.

I've been wrong about a lot of ****. But on these big issues that were always about MORE THEN THE PRESENT. I was right. You were wrong.

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01-23-2012, 04:46 PM
  #208
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You were wrong then, and are right now. For the sake of argument, can you accept that this could be a valid premise?

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01-23-2012, 04:51 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
You were wrong then, and are right now. For the sake of argument, can you accept that this could be a valid premise?
it's a valid premise to those who couldn't see it years ago. i get that some people see 70 pt seasons and barely missing/making the playoffs, and see success in that. Then there are those of us who look a little further.

i guess it's a valid premise to those who need to actually stick their nose in the poo, to know that the poo stinks.

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01-23-2012, 04:57 PM
  #210
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Just say no next time. It's not that hard.

Anyway, if you can't accept that there's really no point in arguing different things.

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01-23-2012, 05:04 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Just say no next time. It's not that hard.

Anyway, if you can't accept that there's really no point in arguing different things.
The team that did nothing after the Boston/Miller incident... they didn't get here this year, they've been here all along. The team that won a presidents trophy only to wilt in the first round. the team that choked away another series. the team that got of to dismal starts to season after season... the team that relied on a core that couldn't even rely on itself... the Culture, Character, and Identity of this team comes from the Core and the Coach that have been here all along.

My viewpoint came from facts and perspective, as well as opinions and learned biases. It grew from inclination to vindication.

If you think the problem sprang up out of nowhere THIS year, you are still in denial.

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01-23-2012, 05:07 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I will hold you to that position then... of course I know you are being feces-ish. You would never take a position that wasn't crystal clear, never looking at more then what's right in front of you.

I do find it rather fulfilling to see you arguing the "it's easier to change the coach, then change the whole core/roster/players" POV now. A case I made relentlessly over the last few years, only to be beaten back by your opinion (shared by the majority) that Ruff needed better players to work with.
That's so ****ing false it's despicable. It's an outright lie. I've never taken that position, and you know it. I always stayed out of the Ruff debates until this season, primarily because I didn't have a position one way or the other. I can deal with varying levels of strawman arguments, but that's garbage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
The complete meltdown of this team does not happen overnight. The seeds have been their for many years. You think Ruff needs to go NOW, I thought he had to go years ago so we didn't end up here. You think Roy needs to go now, I thought he was a problem on and off the ice years ago.

Just like I thought letting Tallinder go was as big a mistake a Briere/Drury, as his impact on Myers development was critical. Myers development has since stalled.

I've been wrong about a lot of ****. But on these big issues that were always about MORE THEN THE PRESENT. I was right. You were wrong.
Too bad I never thought it was a good idea to get rid of Tallinder, nor did I ever chime in on Ruff debates.

As FSE noted, if you can't understand that one can be wrong about something at one time and be right on the same topic at a later point, there's no point in arguing with you.

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01-23-2012, 05:15 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I've been wrong about a lot of ****. But on these big issues that were always about MORE THEN THE PRESENT. I was right. You were wrong.
I really can't wait to see what kind of award you win

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01-23-2012, 05:19 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
That's so ****ing false it's despicable. It's an outright lie. I've never taken that position, and you know it. I always stayed out of the Ruff debates until this season, primarily because I didn't have a position one way or the other. I can deal with varying levels of strawman arguments, but that's garbage.
In fairness, my brain lumps you, joshjull, and sabretip into the same person a lot.

apologies


Quote:
As FSE noted, if you can't understand that one can be wrong about something at one time and be right on the same topic at a later point, there's no point in arguing with you.
right, the core, coach, culture, identity, character, etc of this team... were perfectly fine in December 2010? May 2010? What about November 2009? April 2009? Shall I go on?

Me: These problems have been here for years building up to the present

You: These problems are new and relative to THIS year

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01-23-2012, 05:30 PM
  #215
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Enough of the personal crap.

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01-23-2012, 05:38 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
The team that did nothing after the Boston/Miller incident... they didn't get here this year, they've been here all along. The team that won a presidents trophy only to wilt in the first round. the team that choked away another series. the team that got of to dismal starts to season after season... the team that relied on a core that couldn't even rely on itself... the Culture, Character, and Identity of this team comes from the Core and the Coach that have been here all along.

My viewpoint came from facts and perspective, as well as opinions and learned biases. It grew from inclination to vindication.

If you think the problem sprang up out of nowhere THIS year, you are still in denial.
The Presidents trophy team went to the Conference Finals. It didn't lose in the first round.

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01-23-2012, 06:06 PM
  #217
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The Presidents trophy team went to the Conference Finals. It didn't lose in the first round.
my mistake, i was referring to the vezina year

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01-23-2012, 06:08 PM
  #218
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my mistake, i was referring to the vezina year
I figured it was a oversight. You were definately on a roll so I could see that happening

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01-23-2012, 06:09 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I figured it was a oversight. You were definately on a roll so I could see that happening
i was hoping to wait til the end of the year to enter into "i told you so" mode... held out as long as i could.

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01-23-2012, 06:14 PM
  #220
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At this point I would take a 1st for Roy. I hear this years draft is quite deep, and would love to get away with 2 center prospects. Put them along with Armia and our offense instantly becomes a competitive one. I still like the Miller/Enroth combo as long as our defense does not give up so many odd man breaks. This team gives up more odd man breaks then any team I have seen in years...Is there a statistic that keeps track of this? I believe the reason for this is more of a system issue then a player issue. Ruff wants his defenseman to chip in way to much...

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