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Old
01-22-2012, 11:12 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
I think we're going to have to define what's negative and what's realistic. The plan we were sold on here is that this team would continue to improve, year after year. Big moves have been made to improve the team and development has gone stagnant. The players as a collective group are not progressing year by year. That's just an unfortunate fact.

A negative nancy is one who believes the worst is going to happen, every season, every game. We don't have many of those here.
Curious,

What makes you think the development has gone stagnant?

I have seen great strides in Voynov, Martinez, and Lotkionov alone.

As PuckU just pointed out, there is improvement, albeit slight or minimal, improvement, in points gained through the same games,

Where is this stagnation?

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01-22-2012, 11:31 PM
  #77
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I am just as frustrated as everyone else about the kings lack of scoring. there have been quite a few times this season that i told myself to take a break from this team, but i just cant do it. I bleed Kings too much. if they were to average 2.5 gpg this year, theyd be one of the top teams in the league. It seems like everyone on the roster has forgotten how to finish.

But something that I noticed about the kings the last 2 years, bad offense (not this bad) in the regular season, but then once the playoffs start they start scoring. The last two years in the playoffs the kings have averaged more than 3 gpg. last year they were tied for 1st in playoff gpg despite missing Kopitar.

Make the playoffs, thats all that matters. loser points, shootouts, shutouts, 2-1 games, it doesnt matter. Just make the playoffs. Cause who knows: the kings offense may just wake up in the playoffs just like the last two years. Crazy things happen in the playoffs. You never know who might get hot at the right time

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01-22-2012, 11:58 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Curious,

What makes you think the development has gone stagnant?

I have seen great strides in Voynov, Martinez, and Lotkionov alone.

As PuckU just pointed out, there is improvement, albeit slight or minimal, improvement, in points gained through the same games,

Where is this stagnation?
Voynov and Martinez have fortunately taken big strides. Loktionov, people seem to be getting frustrated with because his point production is lacking, but he's learning to play the game at this level and I think he's doing his job. I'm not really a stats guy though, I go with what I see, and I see good things. The only place for him to be right now is LA at this point in time because it's the only place he'll learn how to grind out success.

Stagnation lies with Drew, Jack, and Kopitar. Drew and Kopi do not appear to be becoming better hockey players, while Jack is still making the same defensive mistakes. To become a better hockey club we need these three to take big strides forward and they are not. They are all capable of doing it, but are not doing it. Everyone knows I love Drew, but the facts are that the games we are calling some games, good games from him are just as a result of lowered standards, because 2 years ago his current play would have been a problem. The same can be said for a "good" or "decent" game from Penner. The development of this team as a goal scoring unit has taken a major blow. 39 more goals last season at the 49 game mark can't be ignored. Being able to score those goals could be the difference between the Kings being one of the top teams in the NHL and what they are right now.

With regard to point totals, yes, the team has three more points in the bank right now. The Kings were also last in the Pacific, and now are not. Where the Kings will be at the end of the season if things continue on this path is unknown.

What I think we have here, with most of the people who post frustrated thoughts anyway, is that they (and me) are not, were not, and won't accept that the Kings are appearing to be steering straight towards a 6th-8th spot for a third straight season after a full rebuild. Barely making the playoffs is something we as fans were told was unacceptable as a long-term outcome at the start of said rebuild. There are also holes still left unfilled after said rebuild, with no youth emerging to fill said holes, or instead youth who have been put into those holes who just aren't capable of getting it done. So yes, the fans have problems, and rightfully so.

The world doesn't end after this season, so all this stuff is correctable, and there's time to do it.

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01-23-2012, 12:33 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
With regard to point totals, yes, the team has three more points in the bank right now. The Kings were also last in the Pacific, and now are not. Where the Kings will be at the end of the season if things continue on this path is unknown.
Well ... if things continue on this path ...

The Kings have still earned points in 15 of their last 17 games (9-2-6) 24 of 34 possible points (.706 points percentage)

The Kings have still earned points in six of their last seven games (3-1-3) nine of a possible 14 points (.643 points percentage)

Like it OR NOT ... IF we continue on the path of gaining points at a .643 to .706 clip ... ummm WE MAKE THE PLAYOFFS and with a better record than the previous Season if I'm not mistaken. But hey what do I know.

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01-23-2012, 12:39 AM
  #80
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I'd like it. It isn't about that, I think all of us would rather see the team in the playoffs than in the dumps. Just to me, such a thing seems untenable with the team scoring at such a low rate, headed for long road trips. I hope it is tenable. Just getting there doesn't cut it for me either, because the Kings should be a hell of a lot better. But that's my opinion.

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01-23-2012, 03:57 AM
  #81
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How are all of these stats skewed since DS took over the team?

I mean we are arguing apples and oranges if we don't consider that DS has EASILY made this team a much better hockey team since he took over so I wonder how our offencive prowess and defencive play has done since DS has taken over.

Looks like we are doing allot better then we were to start the season.


Difficult to get a truly effective sample but we are a different team under DS and that is a fact.

Still need to improve our O but we are playing a much better brand of hockey since then and I believe that some people are going to be hyper critical no matter which side of the stat sheet we are on.


Last edited by etherialone: 01-23-2012 at 04:10 AM.
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01-23-2012, 05:05 AM
  #82
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We are a piss poor team, watch us get man handled today. Man I haven't seen such a boneheaded team for a long time. We are so lost. The players have no chemistry. Dean failed. Time to band wagon

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01-23-2012, 05:15 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Doesn't matter, we are only looking at one stat, goals against, remember? If you let in less than your opponent, you win, so goals against absolutely is the be all and end all of this.
you want to ride quick into the ground and the D too? How long can they bail us out. They too will give out if this persists. It's a sinking ship.

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01-23-2012, 05:43 AM
  #84
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The D isn't "bailing out" the team any more than the O. Defense does not equal 2 dmen, it takes all 5 skaters to keep the GAA down.

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01-23-2012, 06:19 AM
  #85
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Well, the best stat is how rare a team finishing outside the top 4 in the conference even makes the SCF.

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01-23-2012, 09:10 AM
  #86
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I don't want to down play your work on stats but you really only needed to go back to the lock out. No team has won the Cup without a top 10 offense since the lock out. I didn't think Darryl Sutter would fix the offense on this team and I'm not surprised he hasn't. This is by far the biggest let down of a season for me ever. I either had the wool pulled over my eyes that this team is good or the players are massively underachieving. I remember when I used to pause the game on TV or would wait for a TV time out at a game to take a leak or grab a snack.

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01-23-2012, 09:28 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I don't want to down play your work on stats but you really only needed to go back to the lock out. No team has won the Cup without a top 10 offense since the lock out. I didn't think Darryl Sutter would fix the offense on this team and I'm not surprised he hasn't. This is by far the biggest let down of a season for me ever. I either had the wool pulled over my eyes that this team is good or the players are massively underachieving. I remember when I used to pause the game on TV or would wait for a TV time out at a game to take a leak or grab a snack.
thanks Buddy, but it was also about simply qualifying for the playoffs too.. and 7 years wasn't a great sample size, and it turned out to more or less hold true throughout the last 19 or so seasons so I used those too.

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01-23-2012, 09:48 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
We are a piss poor team, watch us get man handled today. Man I haven't seen such a boneheaded team for a long time. We are so lost. The players have no chemistry. Dean failed. Time to band wagon
I hope you forget the

If you really are already predicting we are going to get manhandled in agame that does start for another 10 hours or so, then why cheer for the team? They may be underacheiving, but posting all this about a team which is currently playoffs bound, in effect making it a top half of the league team by default, is just boneheaded in itself.

Go cheer for the Blue Jackets if you want a team the way you described this one.


Last edited by kingsfan: 01-23-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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01-23-2012, 11:09 AM
  #89
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thanks Buddy, but it was also about simply qualifying for the playoffs too.. and 7 years wasn't a great sample size, and it turned out to more or less hold true throughout the last 19 or so seasons so I used those too.
Yeah it definitely further emphasizes the point if offense was just as crucial during the "dead puck" era.

A month or so ago I was looking at the Rangers cap chart and noticed that their entire defense costs about as much as Jack Johnson and Drew Doughty alone. I came to the conclusion that with the amount of money the Kings spend on defense, they should have one of the best in the league (as they do). Organizationally, they need to focus more on offense and that goes with player personnel and coaching.

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01-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Yeah it definitely further emphasizes the point if offense was just as crucial during the "dead puck" era.

A month or so ago I was looking at the Rangers cap chart and noticed that their entire defense costs about as much as Jack Johnson and Drew Doughty alone. I came to the conclusion that with the amount of money the Kings spend on defense, they should have one of the best in the league (as they do). Organizationally, they need to focus more on offense and that goes with player personnel and coaching.

Let's see how that Rangers' D holds up in the playoffs.

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01-23-2012, 12:37 PM
  #91
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I see some stagnation as well. I am very pleased with the progress of Voynov, Loktionov, and Quick this season. All of them have shown noticeable improvement.

Still waiting for Kopitar, Doughty, and Johnson to be all that they can be. The rest will fall into place if those three take their games to the next level on a consistent basis, which is why they were all signed to long term contracts.

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01-23-2012, 12:41 PM
  #92
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Let's see how that Rangers' D holds up in the playoffs.
And lets see how well the Kings does (if they make it). That all went out the window the last two seasons with the Kings. The Kings didn't lose a game all year after leading going into the third period until they played the Canucks in the playoffs.

I'm not saying the Rangers are the benchmark for the league but when they are statistically a better defensive team than the Kings and their entire defense gets paid about what two of our guys get paid, you got to wonder if that is the best use of cap space.

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01-23-2012, 01:52 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Yeah it definitely further emphasizes the point if offense was just as crucial during the "dead puck" era.

A month or so ago I was looking at the Rangers cap chart and noticed that their entire defense costs about as much as Jack Johnson and Drew Doughty alone. I came to the conclusion that with the amount of money the Kings spend on defense, they should have one of the best in the league (as they do). Organizationally, they need to focus more on offense and that goes with player personnel and coaching.
I think if you looked at the Kings defense 12 months ago, our D has a cost of something like $15.7 million, prior to the DD and JMFJ extensions (not counting Drewiske). The Rangers will have to pay more when Del Zotto gets resigned this off-season as well, so it's really not that much different overall.

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01-23-2012, 02:19 PM
  #94
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I think if you looked at the Kings defense 12 months ago, our D has a cost of something like $15.7 million, prior to the DD and JMFJ extensions (not counting Drewiske). The Rangers will have to pay more when Del Zotto gets resigned this off-season as well, so it's really not that much different overall.
I was merely making an observation. Maybe there is zero correlation between the Kings payroll and defense and lack of offense. But maybe there is? And I doubt Del Zotto is going to get paid much more than Staal. There is still going to be a big disparity between the Kings and Rangers. The Kings are overpaying for their defense and that starts with Doughty and right down to Greene. The only "deals" the Kings are getting on their D are Drewiske, Martinez and Voynov. Everyone else is overpaid. Some more than others.

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01-23-2012, 03:12 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I was merely making an observation. Maybe there is zero correlation between the Kings payroll and defense and lack of offense. But maybe there is? And I doubt Del Zotto is going to get paid much more than Staal. There is still going to be a big disparity between the Kings and Rangers. The Kings are overpaying for their defense and that starts with Doughty and right down to Greene. The only "deals" the Kings are getting on their D are Drewiske, Martinez and Voynov. Everyone else is overpaid. Some more than others.
Perhaps. I don't think JMFJ is overpaid, but that's one that can be viewed either way. Same with Mitchell.

Frankly I'd rather have our defense than the Rangers D though, so I guess we should be paying more.

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01-23-2012, 03:49 PM
  #96
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Perhaps. I don't think JMFJ is overpaid, but that's one that can be viewed either way. Same with Mitchell.

Frankly I'd rather have our defense than the Rangers D though, so I guess we should be paying more.
And as a CAP team, if we want better offensive playes, we are probably going to have to make a concession somewhere. You also have to keep in mind that Quick/Bernier are going to be getting paid more in another year. If we want to upgrade the offense, the money is going to have to be freed up somewhere.

Just looking at James Neal's numbers this year, I wonder if the Kings could have traded Jack Johnson for him. I wonder if there is a similar trade out there available? The Kings have a plethora of defensive prospects and desperately need high end offensive talent.

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01-23-2012, 04:03 PM
  #97
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And as a CAP team, if we want better offensive playes, we are probably going to have to make a concession somewhere. You also have to keep in mind that Quick/Bernier are going to be getting paid more in another year. If we want to upgrade the offense, the money is going to have to be freed up somewhere.

Just looking at James Neal's numbers this year, I wonder if the Kings could have traded Jack Johnson for him. I wonder if there is a similar trade out there available? The Kings have a plethora of defensive prospects and desperately need high end offensive talent.
Maybe they could have, but that's 20/20 now. Neal didn't look any better than Penner last season after the trade to Pittsburgh.

I think you'll see the consession not next year but the year after. Next year we ahve penner and Stoll coming off the books and I'd imagine DL will use that money to go after a legit goalscorer. If Mitchell can be resigned for a year, he might be as well.

The next year, when we have to work in the Quick extension, is when you'll see the Kings allow the D to suffer some. I'd imagine Mitchell and Scuds will be allowed to walk for sure then, being replaced by the likes of Hickey, Deslauriers, Forbort, Muzzin, etc.

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