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Old
01-23-2012, 08:45 PM
  #151
Franchise13
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Sarcasm aside, it's not, at that point, about winning the Cup. It's about learning how to be a professional...and in Thornton's case, how to be a professional troll. lol
Couture and Pavs would be in a good spot to be these leaders by that time.

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01-23-2012, 08:52 PM
  #152
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Couture and Pavs would be in a good spot to be these leaders by that time.
By this time being when? If it's when the big guns' contracts are up, I would say maybe for Pavs and no for Couture. Pavs will be 30 so you can make a good argument there but Couture will only be 25. He will be a leader, no doubt, but veteran presence won't be something he'll have by then.

I look at Marleau and Thornton to be what Damphousse and Ricci were when it was Marleau, Sturm, and Cheechoo as the young guys.

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01-23-2012, 09:01 PM
  #153
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By this time being when? If it's when the big guns' contracts are up, I would say maybe for Pavs and no for Couture. Pavs will be 30 so you can make a good argument there but Couture will only be 25. He will be a leader, no doubt, but veteran presence won't be something he'll have by then.

I look at Marleau and Thornton to be what Damphousse and Ricci were when it was Marleau, Sturm, and Cheechoo as the young guys.
Age is not a tell all of someone's leadership abilities. There are great leaders at a young age, it doesn't take 4yrs+ to show someone the ropes. Not saying get rid of the old timers, but you don't keep them just because.

Also, unless one is in the locker rooms, no one can really comment on who the leaders are. Who can say that Couture/Pavs isn't the de facto guy in the locker room other than the ones in the locker room?

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01-23-2012, 09:13 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Franchise13 View Post
Age is not a tell all of someone's leadership abilities. There are great leaders at a young age, it doesn't take 4yrs+ to show someone the ropes. Not saying get rid of the old timers, but you don't keep them just because.

Also, unless one is in the locker rooms, no one can really comment on who the leaders are. Who can say that Couture/Pavs isn't the de facto guy in the locker room other than the ones in the locker room?
I'm not equating veteran presence to leadership as a whole. It is simply one type of it. Even if you have great leaders at a young age, they can't lead the whole group by themselves. And the older guys generally know how to keep things calm and help teach.

As for the who the leaders are, I think it's pretty telling when the coach gives out the A's over the course of time and in certain situations that involve injury. I would say that they have the pulse of the team enough to lend credibility to a statement about leadership.

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01-23-2012, 09:32 PM
  #155
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I'd realize that guys like John Mcarthy and Benn Ferierro arent the solution.

We need legit top six depth and more grit in the bottom six.

We have the cap space.

Get er done.

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01-23-2012, 11:38 PM
  #156
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First of all I just want to say this post isn't really serious and I know it won't ever happen but never the less it's fun to play around with. Please don't go crazy on me and force me back into lurking.

If Griess was given the opportunity to play more games and was able to show he was consistently able to play 40-50 games at the level he has been playing this season, what would you guys say to trading Niemi? Something like a combination(s) of Niemi, Mitchell, Handzus, picks, Demers/Braun to tbay and carolina for Ruutu Purcell and Downie.

Lines would look like

Marleau Thornton Downie
Clowe Couture Purcell
Ruutu Pavelski Havlat
Mcginn Desjardins Winchester

Greiss
Nitty

Would still have I think 6 million in cap space when Couture and Burns contract extensions kick in next year. 3 scoring lines, a stud d core, and a competent goalie.

Again just playing around with this, not really serious and I know it would never happen. Fun to play with none the less.

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01-23-2012, 11:55 PM
  #157
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Trade for an assload of veterans for the playoffs like the cup winning Carolina team (Reference)

Rebuild after that ...

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01-24-2012, 12:16 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Cleaning house will still require veteran presence to help out the younger players in the lineup. Guys like Marleau and Thornton, even past their prime, would be invaluable towards helping future players in teal.
Sure they will, but why is that necessary? Age does not equal veteran presence. We would have Pavelski aged about 29. Couture about 25 but wise beyond his years. Clowe could be retained, aged about 32, he's a great leader. Also Burns and Demers seem to have leadership qualities. And if you look at my original roster, I also suggested signing a couple veteran free agents. The Blackhawks for example are led by Towes, Keith, Kane, all young guys. Look at Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. You don't have to have been in the league for a decade and a half to be a mentor.

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As for Niemi, look around the league. Who needs a goalie right now and who is going to give up a high pick for that goalie? Most teams are on the path of paying very little for goaltending or going young if they do. Niemi is neither at this point. I don't think a 2nd rounder is out of the question but a 1st, I just don't see someone willing to pay that price.
Keep in mind that this scenario is 2-3 years in the future.

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01-24-2012, 12:20 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
Sure they will, but why is that necessary? Age does not equal veteran presence. We would have Pavelski aged about 29. Couture about 25 but wise beyond his years. Clowe could be retained, aged about 32, he's a great leader. Also Burns and Demers seem to have leadership qualities. And if you look at my original roster, I also suggested signing a couple veteran free agents. The Blackhawks for example are led by Towes, Keith, Kane, all young guys. Look at Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. You don't have to have been in the league for a decade and a half to be a mentor.
Kane and Malkin are leaders? Sorry? And you think that Demers will be a good leader? And you think that the Sharks will still employ Clowe after Marleau and Thornton? You are completely out to lunch.

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01-24-2012, 12:31 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
Sure they will, but why is that necessary? Age does not equal veteran presence. We would have Pavelski aged about 29. Couture about 25 but wise beyond his years. Clowe could be retained, aged about 32, he's a great leader. Also Burns and Demers seem to have leadership qualities. And if you look at my original roster, I also suggested signing a couple veteran free agents. The Blackhawks for example are led by Towes, Keith, Kane, all young guys. Look at Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. You don't have to have been in the league for a decade and a half to be a mentor.



Keep in mind that this scenario is 2-3 years in the future.
Why is it necessary to move them? I never stated age equaled veteran presence but guys that have leadership qualities in them like Marleau and Thornton will certainly provide veteran presence to young players.

The Hawks still had plenty of veteran players on their championship roster like Hossa, Madden, Sopel, and Campbell. The Pens had Gonchar, Gill, and eventually Guerin and Boucher. The Pens don't win the Cup without those guys and especially the guys they added during the year.

You seem to think that I'm only for that type of leadership when I'm not. However, it absolutely is required as part of the leadership whole.

As for Niemi, keep in mind that goaltending is becoming less and less valuable as time goes on.

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01-24-2012, 12:33 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehJuxtaposer View Post
Kane and Malkin are leaders? Sorry?
Mentors by their play is more what I meant.

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And you think that Demers will be a good leader?
Possibly. Do you have evidence he connot become one?

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And you think that the Sharks will still employ Clowe after Marleau and Thornton?
I said they "could" as in if they wanted to, there is nothing stopping them.
EDIT: Very curious as to why you say that?

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You are completely out to lunch.
Yikes someone had a bad day. Umm right back at you I guess?

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01-24-2012, 12:37 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Why is it necessary to move them? I never stated age equaled veteran presence but guys that have leadership qualities in them like Marleau and Thornton will certainly provide veteran presence to young players.

The Hawks still had plenty of veteran players on their championship roster like Hossa, Madden, Sopel, and Campbell. The Pens had Gonchar, Gill, and eventually Guerin and Boucher. The Pens don't win the Cup without those guys and especially the guys they added during the year.

You seem to think that I'm only for that type of leadership when I'm not. However, it absolutely is required as part of the leadership whole.

As for Niemi, keep in mind that goaltending is becoming less and less valuable as time goes on.
It's not necessary to move them, but if management wanted to go in a different direction, that means they would be moved. Joe and Patty moving =/= no veteran leadership for this team.

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01-24-2012, 12:38 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
Mentors by their play is more what I meant.



Possibly. Do you have evidence he connot become one?



I said they "could" as in if they wanted to, there is nothing stopping them.



Yikes someone had a bad day. Umm right back at you I guess?
If all you want out of your leaders is mentoring by their play, you won't go very far. There is more to being a professional than that and generally, guys in their early to mid 20's do not provide it. It isn't the only thing, like I've said, but it is needed.

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01-24-2012, 12:38 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
Mentors by their play is more what I meant.
And the Sharks don't have "mentors by their play" in Marleau and Thornton? Kane and Malkin are not the hardest workers...

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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
Possibly. Do you have evidence he connote become one?
He is extremely immature. When you're comparing him to someone the same age in Toews... More importantly, what evidence do you have that he will become one? Vlasic is far more likely.

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I said they "could" as in if they wanted to, there is nothing stopping them.
Clowe at 32 will be a worse player than Marleau or Thornton at 35, you can take that to the bank.

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Yikes someone had a bad day. Umm right back at you I guess?
Did you watch that game?

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01-24-2012, 12:39 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
It's not necessary to move them, but if management wanted to go in a different direction, that means they would be moved. Joe and Patty moving =/= no veteran leadership for this team.
I sincerely doubt that management is going to come to the conclusion that they need to be moved just to go a different direction...especially in Marleau's case.

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01-24-2012, 12:43 AM
  #166
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First order of business would be:

Torrey Michell "C"
Colin White "A"
SJ Sharkie "A"


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01-24-2012, 12:55 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If all you want out of your leaders is mentoring by their play, you won't go very far. There is more to being a professional than that and generally, guys in their early to mid 20's do not provide it. It isn't the only thing, like I've said, but it is needed.
Ok ok hang on. I'm pretty sure we're on the same side here but not entirely understanding each other. The situation of which I am speaking is completely hypothetical and I acknowledge it will likely never happen. IF the org comes to believe that the current core won't get the job done and decide to change the core, Joe and Patty will probably be moved out. Assuming they are, there will be a new leadership core obviously, perhaps even better than the one we have now. To answer the above, I would want our team to have all types of leaders - ones that lead vocally, ones that lead by their play, excited kids, veterans, quiet leaders, etc. You have come off to me as saying that without Joe or Patty, our leadership would go to ****, without acknowledging the other leadership we already have and the people we would be bringing in to replace Joe and Patty.

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01-24-2012, 01:00 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
Ok ok hang on. I'm pretty sure we're on the same side here but not entirely understanding each other. The situation of which I am speaking is completely hypothetical and I acknowledge it will likely never happen. IF the org comes to believe that the current core won't get the job done and change the core, Joe and Patty may be moved out. Assuming they are, there will be a new leadership core obviously, perhaps even better than the one we have now. To answer the above, I would want our team to have all types of leaders - ones that lead vocally, ones that lead by their play, excited kids, veterans, quiet leaders, etc.. You have come off to me as saying that without Joe or Patty, out leadership would go to **** without acknowledging the other leadership we already have and the people we would be bringing in to replace Joe and Patty.
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that it's entirely possible to replace the core leaders without moving guys like Thornton and Marleau and have them take on a role less vital as players and leaders yet still provide certain things that would be helpful. Patrick Marleau has proven the ability to transition from one position to another in this regard.

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01-24-2012, 01:03 AM
  #169
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01-24-2012, 01:05 AM
  #170
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I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that it's entirely possible to replace the core leaders without moving guys like Thornton and Marleau and have them take on a role less vital as players and leaders yet still provide certain things that would be helpful. Patrick Marleau has proven the ability to transition from one position to another in this regard.
That is where we disagree then. I think as long as Thornton and Marleau are here, they will be the leaders by default. At no fault of their own, it has just been this way for so long I don't see it ever changing.

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01-24-2012, 01:10 AM
  #171
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Trade for an assload of veterans for the playoffs like the cup winning Carolina team (Reference)

Rebuild after that ...
Assload meaning Weight and Recchi?

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01-24-2012, 01:23 AM
  #172
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01-24-2012, 01:27 AM
  #173
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I don't think this team can contend in the future if you're banking on Pavelski and Couture being the two best forwards on the team in a few years. I mean, they're really good, but Couture is the only guy who maybe I see being able to put up 70-90 points a season like Marleau, and neither player will come close to JT in his prime.

I'm not sure how to make this team not mediocre/decent for the next several years. Even if we blow everything up we won't be *that* bad either. Someone shed some positive light on me here, what am I so oblivious of?

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01-24-2012, 01:46 AM
  #174
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I don't think this team can contend in the future if you're banking on Pavelski and Couture being the two best forwards on the team in a few years. I mean, they're really good, but Couture is the only guy who maybe I see being able to put up 70-90 points a season like Marleau, and neither player will come close to JT in his prime.

I'm not sure how to make this team not mediocre/decent for the next several years. Even if we blow everything up we won't be *that* bad either. Someone shed some positive light on me here, what am I so oblivious of?
I'm not going to nitpick too much but I think Boston's proven (ironically enough) you don't need a JT type player to win it all. You need scoring depth through the 3 lines, plus a 4th line (like we have now) that can chip in every now and then.

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01-24-2012, 01:55 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by TheDanceOfMaternity View Post
I don't think this team can contend in the future if you're banking on Pavelski and Couture being the two best forwards on the team in a few years. I mean, they're really good, but Couture is the only guy who maybe I see being able to put up 70-90 points a season like Marleau, and neither player will come close to JT in his prime.
Well JT in his prime is 125 pts. No team NEEDS that to be a contender. I see Couture being a 70-90 pt player in a few years and Pavelski a 65-75 pt player. If those are your top 2 centers, you're in pretty good shape. Obviously it depends on who else is on the team though. Wins can and should happen by committee. You don't need a 100+ pt player to be a cup winner.

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