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Old
01-24-2012, 08:54 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
right. literally nobody is saying that the situation should be ignored, but maybe you could at least wait until he's in the ground and people have grieved a little bit before you constantly harp on this child ******* (by the way, there are less appalling terms to use than this).
As if that is something that shouldn't be harped on??? As far as the less appalling terms, why would we sugar coat what happened. Kids were *****, that's what I'm going to call it. It should sound as bad as it was.

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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
i've read the grand jury report. as i mentioned, i've also been close to someone who was systematically sexually abused. get off your moral high horse and stop acting like you are more opposed to something that everyone is horrified by, just because you're louder about it.
If that is true I'm sorry to hear that, but I would think you would be a little more sympathetic toward the victims, rather than the coach that admitted he could have done more to help the kids...

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01-24-2012, 09:00 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
As if that is something that shouldn't be harped on??? As far as the less appalling terms, why would we sugar coat what happened. Kids were *****, that's what I'm going to call it. It should sound as bad as it was.
no, it really shouldn't. it's just tasteless and vulgar. calling it what you're calling it isn't going to change anyone's opinion or make anybody more vigilant against child molestation; all it's going to do is offend some people.



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If that is true I'm sorry to hear that, but I would think you would be a little more sympathetic toward the victims, rather than the coach that admitted he could have done more to help the kids...
these are not mutually exclusive options. one can be sympathetic toward the children that were abused, outraged that it happened, disappointed in the people who could have done more to stop it, and saddened that a man i consider fundamentally good has passed away.

tell me, since you are so sympathetic toward the victims, what have you done for them besides be vocally critical toward a college football coach on an internet message board?

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01-24-2012, 09:10 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
no, it really shouldn't. it's just tasteless and vulgar. calling it what you're calling it isn't going to change anyone's opinion or make anybody more vigilant against child molestation; all it's going to do is offend some people.
I think you might think I am saying something different. I'm saying r-ape, not f-uck.


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these are not mutually exclusive options. one can be sympathetic toward the children that were abused, outraged that it happened, disappointed in the people who could have done more to stop it, and saddened that a man i consider fundamentally good has passed away.

tell me, since you are so sympathetic toward the victims, what have you done for them besides be vocally critical toward a college football coach on an internet message board?
You can be sad all you want. I was never saying not to be upset. I have said over and over again it is sad that he died and the football world lost a legend. I've only been saying he doesn't get a free pass because of that or because he died.

As far as what I have done for the victims, probably the same as everyone else (i.e. nothing). That doesn't mean I can't be upset about it, complain about it, etc.

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01-24-2012, 09:12 AM
  #54
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He did not see it for himself, but it was obvious that the person that told him was telling the truth.

You are blinded by a sport. It's a sport. Who gives a ****. WOW. Legend BS.

If i found out Jagr was involved in covering up the ****** of young, targeted boys, i would stop respecting him.

It was so obvious what Sandusky was doing for 9+ years. Come on. Insanity!

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01-24-2012, 09:25 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by jagrgodr View Post
It was so obvious what Sandusky was doing for 9+ years. Come on. Insanity!
if it was so obvious you really should have contacted the authorities and turned him in, sherlock.

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01-24-2012, 09:45 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think you might think I am saying something different. I'm saying r-ape, not f-uck.
apologies. i was not aware that the r-word is censored.



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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I've only been saying he doesn't get a free pass because of that or because he died.
and nobody is saying he should get a free pass. how has any of this been a free pass? he got fired from pretty much the only professional job he ever had, via a phone call. lots of people around the country hate him now. he's called a child **** enabler, and people say his blind eye toward a serial rapist erases every good thing he did for the school. i hardly think this is a "free pass" and i really don't think you need to bring up something that came to light two months ago. pretty much every news article about his passing mentions the firing and the reason behind it within the first two paragraphs. don't worry, nobody has forgotten.

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01-24-2012, 09:59 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
and nobody is saying he should get a free pass. how has any of this been a free pass? he got fired from pretty much the only professional job he ever had, via a phone call. lots of people around the country hate him now. he's called a child **** enabler, and people say his blind eye toward a serial rapist erases every good thing he did for the school. i hardly think this is a "free pass" and i really don't think you need to bring up something that came to light two months ago. pretty much every news article about his passing mentions the firing and the reason behind it within the first two paragraphs. don't worry, nobody has forgotten.
It seems you are arguing that people shouldn't be talking about it as much (i.e. a free pass). I assume you would also argue he shouldn't have been fired (i.e. a free pass). If I'm wrong about that then ok, but that is what I am gleaning from your posts. As far as people mentioning this in all the articles about his death, that's how it should be. This is a huge deal. He was a huge deal. Something like this happens involving a person of his stature, people are going to talk. He wasn't just some guy. This wasn't just some blip on the radar screen.

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01-24-2012, 10:17 AM
  #58
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yes a free pass is dying a pathetic death after being fired and having your reputation largely spoiled, and having every newspaper article about your death mention that you may not have done enough to stop the **** of children. we apparently have quite a different opinion of what a free pass is.

my opinion about his firing has changed. originally i thought he should have been able to serve out the season. but after some of the emotion wore off, i realize that as the head of the football program, he has to be responsible for the bad things that happen, as well as the good. and i think he should have followed up with curley and/or schultz. allowing him to continue as coach would have been an untenable situation. that said, i think it's pathetic that they gave him a phone number to call and then tersely told him that he was fired.

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01-24-2012, 10:25 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ChumpyG View Post
RIP JoePa.

Hate to say it, but I called this when he was fired. I knew he would die with 6 months.
My wife said the exact same thing.

Such an unfortunate thing to happen at such an unfortunate and uncertain time. I completely admire his career and the impact he had on PS football and the players, staff, etc but I still don't know how I feel about him as a person.

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01-24-2012, 10:44 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
yes a free pass is dying a pathetic death after being fired and having your reputation largely spoiled, and having every newspaper article about your death mention that you may not have done enough to stop the **** of children. we apparently have quite a different opinion of what a free pass is.
I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying he is getting a free pass. I am in disagreement with those who want to downplay the incident and give him a free pass.

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my opinion about his firing has changed. originally i thought he should have been able to serve out the season. but after some of the emotion wore off, i realize that as the head of the football program, he has to be responsible for the bad things that happen, as well as the good. and i think he should have followed up with curley and/or schultz. allowing him to continue as coach would have been an untenable situation. that said, i think it's pathetic that they gave him a phone number to call and then tersely told him that he was fired.
I agree the way he was fired was lame. It was just weird. But in the end he had to go one way or another. They probably did it that way to avoid having a big meeting or something with him that would have likely brought out tons of people protesting/chanting/etc so they figured this would be the easiest way to avoid more attention (though it didn't work out that way).

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01-24-2012, 03:23 PM
  #61
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Pushing it further would have resulted in a tarnishing of his and his program's image.
This is actually pretty much the exact opposite of what would have happened.

If he had pushed it further, off campus, to real police and the like, he would have been the hero. He would have immidiately reinforced the fact that no one is above the moral high bar, not himself, not anyone in his organization.

Yeah it would have looked bad that it happened on campus, but it would have stopped. And he would have been the one to put a stop to it.

And there would have been no risk to him. He was Joe Paterno. The King of Penn State. The man on top of his own little camelot. No one would have brought about the slightest bit of repercussions on his part.

Now its just a sad exclamation on the end of a long career of good things that throws into question all the morals of a person. If they can ignore something this massive, what little things can they ignore?

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01-24-2012, 03:33 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Subject Orange View Post
This is actually pretty much the exact opposite of what would have happened.

If he had pushed it further, off campus, to real police and the like, he would have been the hero. He would have immidiately reinforced the fact that no one is above the moral high bar, not himself, not anyone in his organization.

Yeah it would have looked bad that it happened on campus, but it would have stopped. And he would have been the one to put a stop to it.

And there would have been no risk to him. He was Joe Paterno. The King of Penn State. The man on top of his own little camelot. No one would have brought about the slightest bit of repercussions on his part.

Now its just a sad exclamation on the end of a long career of good things that throws into question all the morals of a person. If they can ignore something this massive, what little things can they ignore?
Clearly he and the university disagreed. The whole thing smells of "brush it under the carpet; pray nobody lifts the carpet."

As for the morals of the person, they were questionable well before this.

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01-24-2012, 03:33 PM
  #63
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this whole thing is just disgusting

The scariest part is what we don't know about. I'm sure many others knew far more. I'm sure everybody knew McQueary told on him and everybody knew that Joe knew and nothing was done so everybody just did what was best for the program. I wonder if there were other abusers. I wonder if sandusky had buddies. I wonder how many boys were assaulted. For every 1 that comes forward there are usually dozens more who don't and at least 10 have come forward.

I wonder how the prosecutor wound up missing and presumed dead - and his laptop with no hard drive ended up at the bottom of a lake.

I wonder how many people will wind up dead or living a ruined life after this is all over.

And all anybody talks about is a miserable old ***** who didn't do enough to stop it. Oh yeah - he was a great coach. Let's fly the State flag at half mast.

That University should dedicate itself to the treatment of abused kids. They should form an organization to help abused kids and a HUGE amount of football revenue should go into it.

Oh yeah - and don't put a pedophile in charge of it...

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01-24-2012, 03:39 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Subject Orange View Post
This is actually pretty much the exact opposite of what would have happened.

If he had pushed it further, off campus, to real police and the like, he would have been the hero. He would have immidiately reinforced the fact that no one is above the moral high bar, not himself, not anyone in his organization.

Yeah it would have looked bad that it happened on campus, but it would have stopped. And he would have been the one to put a stop to it.

And there would have been no risk to him. He was Joe Paterno. The King of Penn State. The man on top of his own little camelot. No one would have brought about the slightest bit of repercussions on his part.

Now its just a sad exclamation on the end of a long career of good things that throws into question all the morals of a person. If they can ignore something this massive, what little things can they ignore?
EXACTLY. If that guy could have looked the other way while a child r-apist walked around campus - god only knows what else went on. I mean - if you're ok with that??? what the hell is wrong with you if your ok with that???? Oh yeah - there goes Jerry - and he's got some boys with him today! Yay they're going to the men's locker room!!! no big deal right????!?!?!?

Seriously JoePa fans - do yourself a favor and pretend you always thought he was a *****. Save some face - it's embarassing I get it - the guy you thought stood for all the good things DIDN'T. He flat out didn't.

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01-24-2012, 03:41 PM
  #65
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He worked for years to cultivate an image and legacy. It was a front. He did an excellent job building a personality cult; I certainly give him credit for that.

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01-24-2012, 08:03 PM
  #66
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If he had pushed it further, off campus, to real police and the like,
penn state has real police. it has its own zip code and its own real police force, who carry guns and perform arrests. these are the usual campus rent-a-cops.

and you're looking at this with 20/20 hindsight. if joe paterno - the best-known man in the community - keeps pushing this (Lord knows how he'd do it, since all he had was a vague secondhand account), word would leak out that sandusky was being investigated for child molestation. and the guy's reputation would be ruined forever, regardless of whether he did anything wrong.

i think paterno could have followed up with the administrators he told originally, pushed harder with them, but anything that involved badgering police into an investigation is not a realistic or good expectation.

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01-24-2012, 08:11 PM
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same excuse being used to exonerate joe paterno as people use to justify catholic priests who fail to report other priests doing similar things to children

if you enable you are just as guilty

i don't care if you become the most hated man on the planet, you tell someone about that s h i t even if it ruins your reputation (which is stupid because if joe paterno didn't do anything why would his reputation be in question?)

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01-24-2012, 09:24 PM
  #68
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i don't care if you become the most hated man on the planet, you tell someone about that s h i t even if it ruins your reputation (which is stupid because if joe paterno didn't do anything why would his reputation be in question?)
i said nothing whatsoever about joe paterno's reputation. of course he wasn't concerned about his own reputation. the reputation that must be protected is sandusky's. you just cannot - CANNOT - take second-hand information to continually badger the police until the press gets wind of it and labels sandusky a child molester. one reason that child abuse cases take so long to come to light - besides the obvious fact that the victims are children and are often reluctant or embarrassed to come forward - is that these cases must be investigated quite delicately. child molesters are the lowest of the low and once you get that label, true or untrue, you are done.

i know you don't want to hear that, but if it were a family member or friend of yours who was accused of something this serious, you'd want to case investigated with the proper diligence and sensitivity, lest they possibly be unjustly labeled a paedophile.

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01-25-2012, 08:28 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
penn state has real police. it has its own zip code and its own real police force, who carry guns and perform arrests. these are the usual campus rent-a-cops.

and you're looking at this with 20/20 hindsight. if joe paterno - the best-known man in the community - keeps pushing this (Lord knows how he'd do it, since all he had was a vague secondhand account), word would leak out that sandusky was being investigated for child molestation. and the guy's reputation would be ruined forever, regardless of whether he did anything wrong.

i think paterno could have followed up with the administrators he told originally, pushed harder with them, but anything that involved badgering police into an investigation is not a realistic or good expectation.
This Isn't hind sight. Its common descency. You don't tell your boss that a kid was molested. Nothing happens. Then ignore it. You just don't. Theres no excuse. Nothing. It doesn't matter that he filled his legal obligations. The molestation continued.

And campus cops aren't real cops. And theres no badering police involved.

You go to the cops. Hi. I'm Joe Paterno (OMG its Joe Paterno!). I've been told by one of my students that he walked in on someone molesting a child in the locker rooms of my sports complex.

You really think they're going say...yeah Joe, sure. whatever.

There goes Crazy Joe. Always making **** up.


And I guess we'll never know what it would have done to his reputation to blow the whistle when he first heard about it. Lord knows his repuation is shining now because it was covered up...

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01-25-2012, 11:44 AM
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sigh... given the mouth-breathing nature of your response, riddled with misspellings and poor grammar, this is probably a complete waste of time, but here goes nothing.

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This Isn't hind sight. Its common descency. You don't tell your boss that a kid was molested.
read this. repeat it. read it and repeat it a few times until you understand. joe paterno did not know that a kid was molested. he knew that a graduate assistant coach saw what he reported to be fondling or inappropriate contact between a former coach and a young boy. joe paterno did not witness this firsthand. he did not know if the graduate assistant had simply misunderstood what he saw, had an ulterior motive for making a false report, etc. he did not report that a kid was molested. he reported what mcqueary had told him so that the athletic director could conduct a more in depth interview with the proper authorities present.

you want to blame him for not following up, fine. but don't get on the guy for not reporting something that he didn't know.

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And campus cops aren't real cops.
if you don't know what you're talking about, it's probably best to keep your mouth shut (or i suppose in this case, your fingers off the keyboard). penn state university police are not like the campus rent-a-cops at whatever community college you attended. they carry guns and pepper spray and handcuffs, issue tickets for speeding and parking, etc. they are police officers as much as the state college borough police are police officers.

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You go to the cops. Hi. I'm Joe Paterno (OMG its Joe Paterno!). I've been told by one of my students that he walked in on someone molesting a child in the locker rooms of my sports complex.
aside from it not being one of joe paterno's students, not being explicitly told that the child was being molested, and joe paterno not actually owning or overseeing the sports complex, you're spot on here.

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And I guess we'll never know what it would have done to his reputation to blow the whistle when he first heard about it. Lord knows his repuation is shining now because it was covered up...
don't you think if he cared only about his reputation that he would have just gone to the police to cover his ass? if you want to argue that he did it to protect the football program, fine, but at least try to make some sort of sense here.

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01-25-2012, 12:01 PM
  #71
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wow you really love joe pa huh?

Or do you just love the school, or the program? You are part of the problem, people like you. You think this man is higher than most and he couldn't have done wrong, so you are just grasping at things to justify your love for him.

I still can't believe there is a thread here about this. So out of place it's not even funny.

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01-25-2012, 12:10 PM
  #72
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lol. hey you forgot to accuse me of being in favor of child ****, that's what the geniuses like you usually do.

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01-25-2012, 12:55 PM
  #73
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I still can't believe there is a thread here about this. So out of place it's not even funny.
It's a big deal for the Philly region.

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01-25-2012, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
read this. repeat it. read it and repeat it a few times until you understand. joe paterno did not know that a kid was molested. he knew that a graduate assistant coach saw what he reported to be fondling or inappropriate contact between a former coach and a young boy. joe paterno did not witness this firsthand. he did not know if the graduate assistant had simply misunderstood what he saw, had an ulterior motive for making a false report, etc. he did not report that a kid was molested. he reported what mcqueary had told him so that the athletic director could conduct a more in depth interview with the proper authorities present.

you want to blame him for not following up, fine. but don't get on the guy for not reporting something that he didn't know.
He said he knew what happened. He said he wish he could have done more. It doesn't matter how little, or how much he knew. It doesn't matter if he knew it to be 100% true. He was told by someone in his organization that they saw something WRONG. You tell someone with authority. If nothing happens, you tell someone with more authority. This isn't someone taking candy from a store shelf. Read and Repeat. Its child molestation.

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if you don't know what you're talking about, it's probably best to keep your mouth shut (or i suppose in this case, your fingers off the keyboard). penn state university police are not like the campus rent-a-cops at whatever community college you attended. they carry guns and pepper spray and handcuffs, issue tickets for speeding and parking, etc. they are police officers as much as the state college borough police are police officers.
Officers who are paid by the university. To protect the university. Not real cops. There are plenty of private security forces who carry weapons. Not real cops. The officers where I went to school carried pepper spray and hand cuffs as well. Had their own cars. wrote tickets on campus. What did they do when a real emergency happened? Called the local police station. Insulting me is not the best way to get your point across. I attended several schools far above the community college level, both graduate and post graduate. So lets move on.

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aside from it not being one of joe paterno's students, not being explicitly told that the child was being molested, and joe paterno not actually owning or overseeing the sports complex, you're spot on here.
Semantics that don't mean anything. He was told something WRONG was observed by someone in his organization. Student or not. A child was involved. Naked in the shower with a grown man. And no Paterno doesn't own anything on the campus. but he's Joe Paterno. He had more power at that university than the vast majority of the institution. If you can't see that, something is wrong.

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don't you think if he cared only about his reputation that he would have just gone to the police to cover his ass? if you want to argue that he did it to protect the football program, fine, but at least try to make some sort of sense here.
So what did he care about by not telling anyone above his boss? You are the one not making sense. How does covering it up and letting it continue help anything? TELLING someone who is objective and has the LAW in their best interest, protects the program, protects the school, protects his image, and most importantly, the children.


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Old
01-25-2012, 01:01 PM
  #75
Beef Invictus
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 44,877
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Yeah, let's be realistic...Joe Paterno had more influence and power at that university than anyone else, except the combined BoT. Hell...the Athletic Director owed his position to Joe Pa, he came up under him.

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