Well JT in his prime is 125 pts. No team NEEDS that to be a contender. I see Couture being a 70-90 pt player in a few years and Pavelski a 65-75 pt player. If those are your top 2 centers, you're in pretty good shape. Obviously it depends on who else is on the team though. Wins can and should happen by committee. You don't need a 100+ pt player to be a cup winner.
Notice he said top two forwards, not top two centers. Couture-Pavelski is a great 1-2 punch, but we need talented wingers to stay competitive, and we don't have a Marleau-caliber winger in the system.
I don't think this team can contend in the future if you're banking on Pavelski and Couture being the two best forwards on the team in a few years. I mean, they're really good, but Couture is the only guy who maybe I see being able to put up 70-90 points a season like Marleau, and neither player will come close to JT in his prime.
I'm not sure how to make this team not mediocre/decent for the next several years. Even if we blow everything up we won't be *that* bad either. Someone shed some positive light on me here, what am I so oblivious of?
JT is a much better player right now than he was in his "prime" when Ron Wilson was giving him the Sedin treatment by trotting him out almost solely for offensive zone starts against crappy opponents and then calling him back to the bench as soon as the puck left the zone.
JT is a much better player right now than he was in his "prime" when Ron Wilson was giving him the Sedin treatment by trotting him out almost solely for offensive zone starts against crappy opponents and then calling him back to the bench as soon as the puck left the zone.
I agreed last season, but for awhile now he's been really struggling. Terrible, constant, predictable turnovers, bad passes, and more recently he's even been losing board battles on a regular basis.
I dunno what's going on with him, either he's injured, or he's simply slowing down (reflexes) and it's ruining his game.
I agreed last season, but for awhile now he's been really struggling. Terrible, constant, predictable turnovers, bad passes, and more recently he's even been losing board battles on a regular basis.
I dunno what's going on with him, either he's injured, or he's simply slowing down (reflexes) and it's ruining his game.
Yes. I was on board with the "he's changed his game" stuff for a while, but I'd take 100+ point Joe over 70 pt 2 way player Joe any day.
EDIT: I probably should have quoted Les there instead.
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau – Joe Thornton – Joe Pavelski
Milan Michalek – Logan Couture – Martin Havlat
Jamie McGinn – Kyle Wellwood – Devin Setoguchi
Ryane Clowe – Scott Nichol – Jonathan Cheechoo
DEFENSEMEN
Kent Huskins – Dan Boyle
Marc-Edouard Vlasic – Brent Burns
Douglas Murray – Christian Ehrhoff
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau – Joe Thornton – Joe Pavelski
Milan Michalek – Logan Couture – Martin Havlat
Jamie McGinn – Kyle Wellwood – Devin Setoguchi
Ryane Clowe – Scott Nichol – Jonathan Cheechoo
DEFENSEMEN
Kent Huskins – Dan Boyle
Marc-Edouard Vlasic – Brent Burns
Douglas Murray – Christian Ehrhoff
GOALTENDERS
Evgeni Nabokov – Thomas Greiss
TOTALS
$63,597,500 (+$702,500)
I'm not sure of what you are getting at here... that roster is essentially impossible.
The two-way play is key to playoff wins. I would not make your choice.
I don't think it's a coincidence that Thornton's improvement as a playoff performer has coincided with his development as a two-way player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoShark
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau – Joe Thornton – Joe Pavelski
Milan Michalek – Logan Couture – Martin Havlat
Jamie McGinn – Kyle Wellwood – Devin Setoguchi
Ryane Clowe – Scott Nichol – Jonathan Cheechoo
DEFENSEMEN
Kent Huskins – Dan Boyle
Marc-Edouard Vlasic – Brent Burns
Douglas Murray – Christian Ehrhoff
GOALTENDERS
Evgeni Nabokov – Thomas Greiss
TOTALS
$63,597,500 (+$702,500)
How did we get Havlat if we never traded Milan and Cheech for Heatley? Who'd we trade for Burns if we kept the Gooch? How did the team look in previous years?
It's looks good but it's just hard to judge if it's plausible.
I don't understand what that has to do with him getting spanked by Bolland. If anything it's counterproductive. Explain?
An elite shutdown center like Bolland shuts down an offense-only JT. Then what does Thornton have to offer? Nothing. If he's focused in all three zones he can at least prevent offense himself and not become a liability on the ice.
I don't understand what that has to do with him getting spanked by Bolland. If anything it's counterproductive. Explain?
When a third line center outscores you in series, takes away puck after puck and generates a -10 on a franchise player, it is a huge message. LW posted the top 50 playoff scorers of the past decade. Are you aware that of those top 50 that JT has the largest "-" number? There is a shift to 5on5 scoring in the playoffs by virtue of fewer PPS being awarded. Minuses become much more important. There is a reason that TM made the "move his feet" comment. There is a good reason that he changed his game and that reason has a lot to do with playoff performance.
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau – Joe Thornton – Joe Pavelski
Milan Michalek – Logan Couture – Martin Havlat
Jamie McGinn – Kyle Wellwood – Devin Setoguchi
Ryane Clowe – Scott Nichol – Jonathan Cheechoo
DEFENSEMEN
Kent Huskins – Dan Boyle
Marc-Edouard Vlasic – Brent Burns
Douglas Murray – Christian Ehrhoff
I wouldn't change that much. I think the teams core, management and coaching staff is pretty good on the whole. That said, there is no way in my mind this team should be such an underachieving team on special teams when the Coach was brought in with that star on his resume. And there are some basic things I'd like to see improved.
I can't stand the perimeter shots - low to high, cycle looking for a clean pass. Defenders are better now than 4 years ago, and this team continues with the same offensive strategies. There are few players on this team who will take the puck to the net. Instead we shoot it through 5 people hoping it gets through. There are few who can hold the puck and dangle to gain their own space and draw people to them so they can dish to an open player. On the PP there are too few players who make quick passes to open lanes. There are too many times when several players will stop with the puck and watch a play move from them, looking for a pass. But the geometry of that play tells you the more people move from you, the smaller the lanes are to find a player. Just too much holding the puck from my perspective both in PP and 5:5 situations. There are too many shots from the point when there are no players around for a tip, screen or there for a rebound either. It does little good to pound a shot on net from the high slot when the goalie has clear vision. It adds to shot totals, but there are few conversions from that play.
I think the existing staff can teach whats important though I am open to the addition of a better Assistant Coach than our current lot. I acknowledge we are short people because of injury, but our lack of depth was always obvious to us so I'm sure DW is looking still for a boost.
I wonder if anyone has a stat that shows how many shots were put on net from a tip, or off a rebound. I wonder if we are still high up in the League on those kind of attempts versus just the shot total?
Its all interrelated, but in the end, special teams that can function in the top of the NHL are going to be important for team success in the playoffs. Getting the right players with the right mindset and the right coaching are important.
When a third line center outscores you in series, takes away puck after puck and generates a -10 on a franchise player, it is a huge message. LW posted the top 50 playoff scorers of the past decade. Are you aware that of those top 50 that JT has the largest "-" number? There is a shift to 5on5 scoring in the playoffs by virtue of fewer PPS being awarded. Minuses become much more important. There is a reason that TM made the "move his feet" comment. There is a good reason that he changed his game and that reason has a lot to do with playoff performance.
I'm on board with you for everything except citing what happened with Bolland as an indictment of Thornton's play. The Copper & Blue were tracking scoring chances for that series (they're usually very reliable, they do a terrific job) and Thornton killed Bolland based on those: http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/5/28...ks-hth-scoring. Of course, Niemi stopped everything and Bolland and his linemates ended up capitalizing on the few opportunities they created. **** happens over as minute a sample size as 4 games that's not going to be reflective of actual performance. I would go back further in time (i.e. RW era) for examples of Thornton-sheltering handicapping the team as 09-10 was actually the first year McLellan routinely used JT in power versus power matchups (it was mostly Michalek/Pavelski/Clowe his first season).
I'm on board with you for everything except citing what happened with Bolland as an indictment of Thornton's play. The Copper & Blue were tracking scoring chances for that series (they're usually very reliable, they do a terrific job) and Thornton killed Bolland based on those: http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/5/28...ks-hth-scoring. Of course, Niemi stopped everything and Bolland and his linemates ended up capitalizing on the few opportunities they created. **** happens over as minute a sample size as 4 games that's not going to be reflective of actual performance. I would go back further in time (i.e. RW era) for examples of Thornton-sheltering handicapping the team as 09-10 was actually the first year McLellan routinely used JT in power versus power matchups (it was mostly Michalek/Pavelski/Clowe his first season).
Not contesting the C&B article, I meant the message as JT perceived it. IMO, JT should have received the message on the Anaheim series of a year earlier. That minus number would still be tops even if the Chicago series was entirely removed.
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau – Joe Thornton – Joe Pavelski
Milan Michalek – Logan Couture – Martin Havlat
Jamie McGinn – Kyle Wellwood – Devin Setoguchi
Ryane Clowe – Scott Nichol – Jonathan Cheechoo
DEFENSEMEN Kent Huskins – Dan Boyle
Marc-Edouard Vlasic – Brent Burns
Douglas Murray – Christian Ehrhoff
GOALTENDERS
Evgeni Nabokov – Thomas Greiss
TOTALS
$63,597,500 (+$702,500)
I see one thing thing not like the others, i see one thing that doesnt belong
I get the cap thing, but weve had sooooo many better defenders whove played for less $
Not contesting the C&B article, I meant the message as JT perceived it. IMO, JT should have received the message on the Anaheim series of a year earlier. That minus number would still be tops even if the Chicago series was entirely removed.
Yes, if Thornton wants to even be an All-Star he needs to stop getting stomped by every other center in the NHL come playoffs.
Back to the thread:
No major changes if I was GM. Would really like a couple 3rd line rentals and a home for Nitty, but wouldn't be willing to give up any assets for either. Areas I would focus on addressing:
Wing development. Having a million centers playing Wing is hurting the Sharks.
Goalie development. We have highly rated prospects, but fail to get them any NHL-level ice time. This is on me the GM.
Coaching. The special teams play is still abysmal although it has improved since the "reset". Finding an assistant coach who can help with this would be one of my top priorities. The Sharks need the Mitchell/Grier magic back.
Prospects. Given away too many prospects and picks lately, I would stop worrying about improving this year and focus a little more on future years. I would be very mindful of just throwing away 2nd round picks any time I wanted a 7th d-man or 4th line grinder for the playoffs.
I would immediately fire anyone involved with team graphics and hire Slocal, Mafoofoo and Nem to re-design all marketing materials and graphics.
We might not win the cup, but we'd look damn good doing so.
Somewhat along these lines I would hire my buddy to play the electric keyboard at the arena. Dude can take any modern/classic song and translate it into absolute epicness on a keyboard. Can sing pretty well too, but you don't really need that. I miss the good ol' days of live music at the tank.
For some reason every time I hear the funky chicken at an opposing arena I'm reminded of it
