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bell vs. phaneuf

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Old
01-02-2006, 06:31 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Less than a week ago Mike Richards was tangled up with Exelby and had the presence of mind to reach up, mid fight, and remove the shield.
Great to see, Mike Richards is one of my favourite players in the NHL (and there arn't many players I like outside of the Flames, I'm not one of those "fan of everyone" guys) and full credit to Mike Richards.

But I still don't think that if you don't remove your visor, you are the anti-christ. Is what Phaneuf did (fighting with visor) worse then... Bell running Kiprusoff? Is it worse then... Spacek torpedoing at Ritchie's knee's or slew footing Iginla?

Fine line, norrisnick. I don't pretend to think that my opinion is completely right nor do I pretend that the other side is completely wrong, but I don't think its that big of a deal compared to alot more dirty stuff happening in the league. Bryan Marchment tries to take out a guys knees for 3 straight games and nobody cares. Phaneuf fights with a visor and he's the anti-christ? Get real. Bryan Marchment gets away with almost ending a guys career - Phaneuf, at worst, causes a guy to cut his hand... oh no!

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01-02-2006, 06:45 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
Great to see, Mike Richards is one of my favourite players in the NHL (and there arn't many players I like outside of the Flames, I'm not one of those "fan of everyone" guys) and full credit to Mike Richards.

But I still don't think that if you don't remove your visor, you are the anti-christ. Is what Phaneuf did (fighting with visor) worse then... Bell running Kiprusoff? Is it worse then... Spacek torpedoing at Ritchie's knee's or slew footing Iginla?

Fine line, norrisnick. I don't pretend to think that my opinion is completely right nor do I pretend that the other side is completely wrong, but I don't think its that big of a deal compared to alot more dirty stuff happening in the league. Bryan Marchment tries to take out a guys knees for 3 straight games and nobody cares. Phaneuf fights with a visor and he's the anti-christ? Get real. Bryan Marchment gets away with almost ending a guys career - Phaneuf, at worst, causes a guy to cut his hand... oh no!
Marchment is also widely regarded as one of the dirtiest players around. You come to expect it. Iginla is touted as a shining, honorable example of what every great hockey player ought to be. If you're going to engage in an activity where you try and punch some guy in the face take off the shield. Simple enough.

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01-02-2006, 06:49 PM
  #28
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I think Phaneuf lost a lot of respect league wide for this today.

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01-02-2006, 06:55 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
If you're going to engage in an activity where you try and punch some guy in the face take off the shield. Simple enough.
On that note, what is your take on players having to take their helmet off all together? If you risk cutting your hand on a visor, isn't it worse to risk breaking your hand on a helmet?

My point is simply that there is no complete right or wrong. Maybe there was 10 years ago, but more players wear visors then ever before, so maybe there is a new standard in the league.

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01-02-2006, 06:55 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Marchment is also widely regarded as one of the dirtiest players around. You come to expect it. Iginla is touted as a shining, honorable example of what every great hockey player ought to be. If you're going to engage in an activity where you try and punch some guy in the face take off the shield. Simple enough.
and yet Iginla has a black mark on his record with his fight against Hatcher. Proly worse off than what Dion did, because he pushed his helmet back on when it almost came off.

Dion just never thought about taking it off. In my opinion what makes it bad is that after the helmet came off, he stopped fighting.

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01-02-2006, 06:57 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by X8oD
and yet Iginla has a black mark on his record with his fight against Hatcher. Proly worse off than what Dion did, because he pushed his helmet back on when it almost came off.
Not completely true

Iginla nudged his helmet before the fight started.

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01-02-2006, 07:05 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
On that note, what is your take on players having to take their helmet off all together? If you risk cutting your hand on a visor, isn't it worse to risk breaking your hand on a helmet?

My point is simply that there is no complete right or wrong. Maybe there was 10 years ago, but more players wear visors then ever before, so maybe there is a new standard in the league.
Helmet doesn't bother me too much as you shouldn't really be swinging at the top of their heads. Plus, you can break your hand just as easy on a skull than on a helmet. Visors can cut you pretty bad if you catch the edge between knuckles or even worse if it were to break and that is dangerous for all involved (Joey Kocur once cracked a helmet with a punch).

If both guys (or everyone for that matter) are wearing visors...

Basically it boils down to, if you're going to try and punch a guy in the face don't be hiding yours behind a shield.

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01-02-2006, 07:09 PM
  #33
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Fair enough, I've never fought in hockey before, so I don't know about that. I just think that 10 years ago, what 10% of the playeres wear visors? Now, its 75% ? It's a different time, and with more players wearing visors, I think even the unwritten rules have to be changed.

I said this above, the thing that I really hate about removing your helmet (visor or none) is those black marks of fighting when you see a guy land on his head and get taken off by a visor. I'd rather take a "pansy, visor fighting" Iginla or Phaneuf then a cracked skull or dead Iginla or Phaneuf.

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01-02-2006, 07:12 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
Not completely true

Iginla nudged his helmet before the fight started.
Less exactly true.

Right at the start (when they were dropping equipment) Hatcher grabbed at the shield to try and knock it off. Jarome adjusted it after that when they locked on for good. Hatcher drilled the visor dead-on with a punch and it hurt his hand and he had to hang back a bit. Then he opened himself up to try and take the shield off and that's when the real fight began. The final punch when Derian was on his back with his arms tied up and Jarome was still on his knees wasn't too nice either.

What's really funny is that the McCarty/Commodore fight that started right at the end of the Hatcher/Iginla fight. Mike was reaching up to take Mac's lid off and Darren reached up and took it off himself (while already tangled up with Commodore). Jarome's instinct is to readjust the lid and Mac's is to take it off.

/I've got the clip running right now.

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01-02-2006, 08:47 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
The only other fight I can recall Dion Phaneuf had was vs Bill Guerin, and I believe Phaneuf took off his visor. I didn't watch the game today, so I don't know. I do remember Guerin said at the end of the fight "good job kid" to Phaneuf, but that was about it, so I'd assume Phaneuf did remove his visor.
He didnt take it off, Guerin got it off during the fight.

They should be taking off the visors for fights for sure. But guys like Buchberger who used to fight with his helmet down almost over his eyes arent much better. There are dirtier things than visor fights but its just a ****** thing to do.


Last edited by Bileur: 01-02-2006 at 08:53 PM.
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Old
01-02-2006, 09:06 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
Just to note, Bell ran Kiprusoff which is why Phanuef fought him.

This was indeed Phaneuf's 2nd fight (1st being Guerin), so I'm not sure the first thing Phaneuf thought after Bell ran Kiprusoff was "hmm, maybe I should take my visor first."

Just a possibility, I'm not claiming to know the why's and how's of Phaneuf's fight.
I have absolutely no recollection of Bell running Kipperstuff, and even if he had, Dion was definitely not going after Bell in a fit of rage. I remember it being more of a situation where there was a loose puck and a bunch of players came to the net with the puck under Kipperstuff and Dion tied up Bell. He came across ice, gave Bell a glove to the face from behind and had him in a minihammerlock. Bell obviously didn't like this, so after a good five to ten seconds he threw a elbow to get Dion off of him. Dion didn't get off of Bell so Bell threw off a glove and then Dion quickly tossed off both of his and started to punch Bell. There was about ten to fifteen seconds between when they first made body contact to the beginning of the fight. Bell also definitely ripped Dion's visor off. Spacek also did make contact with the puck. He looked like he tripped, but that's just my opinion. It's a shame about what happened to Ritchie though. Spacek is far from a goon and to suggest he intentionally hurt Ritchie is far fetched. There's a reason he only got two minutes. McCarrty also ran Vrbata from behind and his hit on Aucoin was very borderline to me. If you're going to fight someone, you'd damn well better take your visor off before doing so. The unwritten rule hasn't changed, if you want to fight somebody you don't wear a face shield. It's a weak thing to do. The day that changes is the day they need to ban fighting.


Last edited by DisgruntledHawkFan: 01-02-2006 at 09:18 PM.
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Old
01-02-2006, 10:03 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Less than a week ago Mike Richards was tangled up with Exelby and had the presence of mind to reach up, mid fight, and remove the shield.
As did Doug Murray a few games ago against Doan. Doug chucked the helmet/visor then went at it...how it should be done.

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01-02-2006, 10:10 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Right at the start (when they were dropping equipment) Hatcher grabbed at the shield to try and knock it off. Jarome adjusted it after that when they locked on for good. Hatcher drilled the visor dead-on with a punch and it hurt his hand and he had to hang back a bit. Then he opened himself up to try and take the shield off and that's when the real fight began. The final punch when Derian was on his back with his arms tied up and Jarome was still on his knees wasn't too nice either.
If you have it running and got it off the net, why don't you post the link? I think people who watch it themselves can draw to their own conclusions. That had been shoving before hand, but IMO the fight didn't start until after, but you know the old cliche's... your view, my view and the truth.

As for why, could it not be because his helmet was over his eyes? I see him "adjusting his lid" (roll eyes) as much as people rolling up their sleves or whatever, its not that big of a deal. Sheesh.

Personally, I don't think Jarome Iginla is a pansy or is being cheap, and if this really is such a big deal and a big respect issue as people claim, one of the players would have spoken up about it already. Players like Georges Laraque arn't afraid to speak their mind, so I'm pretty sure you'd hear about it. What do you hear instead from Iginla's fighters? I think it really speaks volumes when Iginla's opponents such as Ohlund and Shanahan come out and praise Iginla for stepping up to the plate and dropping his gloves. Same with Phaneuf, if he was such an anti-christ of a fighter, why would Bill Guerin say at the end "good job kid" after the fight? Yeah, these guys really lose respect from their opponenet, right?

I think the people whining about it are the same that call the Flames a fluke or Kiprusoff a one year wonder of Iginla an overrated bum and mediocre scorer or the Flames defense overrated ect ect.

As for Hatcher... I personally think Hatcher is one of the dirtiest, cheap shot artists in the league (outside of Marchment). Heck, compared to Hatcher, Bertuzzi has 3 angel rings over his head. The way Hatcher tries to end players like Roenick and Lombardi's career, I have no respect for him. Even off the ice, he's apperently a real ***** as he almost got into a fight with Iginla, Shanahan and Chris Pronger during a NHLPA meeting last year. Not to mention even the UHL where many players came out and said what a dirty player Hatcher is.

To me, the respect issue comes down to the players on the ice instead of the ones behind the key board. If Ohlund or Lecavlier come out and say Iginla is breaking the unwritten rules, fine, then its an issue. But when these guys (Ohlund, Lecavlier, Shanahan) who actually fight Iginla, or Guerin (on Phaneuf) praise these guys for their class and perfessionalism, then I don't see an issue there.

But that's just me

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01-02-2006, 10:11 PM
  #39
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Should have known this thread would be full of visor crybabies.

Here's a thought for Bell: Dont trip up the opposing teams goalie. Don't do that, and you wont be fighting a guy who just happens to wear a shield.

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01-02-2006, 10:22 PM
  #40
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I still can't find any video of Bell tripping up Kipperstuff. It was Simon who speared Bell in the nuts. I have no problem with a player wearing a visor at all. If a player wants to keep his eyes, that's fine with me. If you're going to be the one to start a fist fight, however, you shouldn't be wearing a visor.

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01-02-2006, 10:32 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan
I still can't find any video of Bell tripping up Kipperstuff. It was Simon who speared Bell in the nuts. I have no problem with a player wearing a visor at all. If a player wants to keep his eyes, that's fine with me. If you're going to be the one to start a fist fight, however, you shouldn't be wearing a visor.

Phaneuf should take the visor off if he is going to fight, period. Come one Flames fans, be realistic about that.

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01-02-2006, 10:33 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan
I still can't find any video of Bell tripping up Kipperstuff. It was Simon who speared Bell in the nuts. I have no problem with a player wearing a visor at all. If a player wants to keep his eyes, that's fine with me. If you're going to be the one to start a fist fight, however, you shouldn't be wearing a visor.
No, that's fair enough. I know that's an unwritten rule, but I think you or anyone else in this thread that thinks THEY know who is respected around the league and who isn't, and what the unwritten rules are are completely nuts. Rules change, and with the number of players wearing visors, maybe it isn't such a big deal anymore? Maybe it wasn't such a big deal after a player (name slipped my mind) fought (I believe it was Joe Thornton) didn't have his helmet on, landed on his head, and had to be taken off on a stretcher with his career in doubt. After the Berard incident ect, many players have put on the shield (including Iginla who has sufferened an eye injury) and after the incidents, careers and even lives that have been affected by landing on the ice head first, maybe that is why players like Iginla leave their helmet on? The fact is, you don't know and I don't know - we can only speculate, but at least respect the fact that there is another argument other then your own.

How do you (maybe not you specifically) know that players around the league have lost respect for Iginla? How do you know players are the league are losing respect for Phaneuf? Did they tell you? Have they come out and said it? Are they quoted anywhere in saying in? Because Shanahan has been quoted after a long fight with Iginla, calling the guy classy, a budding superstar (before his breakout) and plays hockey the way it should be played. Mattius Ohlund said on the radio before a Calgary Flames game that he loves to battle with Iginla, that he respects Iginla and he enjoys their rivarly (Ohlund is possibly Iginla's biggest on-ice rival in the past 5 years). Vincent Lecavlier said to Jarome Iginla during the World Cup that he respects how Iginla plays and tries to model his game after Iginla (this was asked when a reporter asked Lecavlier what the situation was since they fought on ice). Heck, even Craig Conroy fought Jarome Iginla a couple days before the Flames aquired Conroy, and they are now best friends. I said above about Phaneuf, Billy Guerin said after a fight with Phaneuf "good job kid" after they fought. Where exactly are these quotes saying Iginla and Phaneuf are losing respect around the league?

Or are you (once again, not specifically you) making it up?

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01-02-2006, 10:35 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behn Wilson
Phaneuf should take the visor off if he is going to fight, period. Come one Flames fans, be realistic about that.
I said this above, I think players should remove their visor when the fight. That's the code, I know about it and I respect it.

My point is it isn't such a big deal. At least not to the degree you suggest.

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01-02-2006, 10:37 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan
I still can't find any video of Bell tripping up Kipperstuff. It was Simon who speared Bell in the nuts. I have no problem with a player wearing a visor at all. If a player wants to keep his eyes, that's fine with me. If you're going to be the one to start a fist fight, however, you shouldn't be wearing a visor.
Did you watch the game? I doubt you'll find it on the highlights.

My source is Rich Preston, when Rob Kerr (Flames radio host) asked Preston about why guys like Simon and Weimer arn't standing up for Kiprusoff when he keeps on getting run continually, and Preston said "well Dion did when Bell ran him."

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01-02-2006, 10:38 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Phanuthier
I said this above, I think players should remove their visor when the fight. That's the code, I know about it and I respect it.

My point is it isn't such a big deal. At least not to the degree you suggest.
If it was slug that people didnt like it would be no big deal. But when its from one of the top young players in the league, known and respected for his physical play, its a big disappointment. I really like the kid and he went down a notch in my book tonight.

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01-02-2006, 10:43 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Behn Wilson
If it was slug that people didnt like it would be no big deal. But when its from one of the top young players in the league, known and respected for his physical play, its a big disappointment. I really like the kid and he went down a notch in my book tonight.
You said it in your own words, Phaneuf is respected for what he does.

I don't think players fear a backlash THAT much, and I don't think you'll see Bell ripped to shreds if he said "well that kid Dion sure is quite a defenseman, but he has to know that he should remove his visor when he fights. Good for him for standing up for his team, but that's the (unwritten) rules, you gotta remove the shield." If he said that, I'd respect it. Or if Guerin said that, I'd fully respect that.

But when instead, Guerin says "good job kid" after a fight and to Dion directly and not the media (sorry if I'm a broken record here) to me, that shows us the respect players have more then the guessing that we are doing around here. Like I said, I don't pretend to be a fly on the wall behind the scenes, so I just gather what I have and has been documented.

The issue of respect is not up to us to decide, its the players.

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01-02-2006, 10:47 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
You said it in your own words, Phaneuf is respected for what he does.

I don't think players fear a backlash THAT much, and I don't think you'll see Bell ripped to shreds if he said "well that kid Dion sure is quite a defenseman, but he has to know that he should remove his visor when he fights. Good for him for standing up for his team, but that's the (unwritten) rules, you gotta remove the shield." If he said that, I'd respect it. Or if Guerin said that, I'd fully respect that.

But when instead, Guerin says "good job kid" after a fight and to Dion directly and not the media (sorry if I'm a broken record here) to me, that shows us the respect players have more then the guessing that we are doing around here. Like I said, I don't pretend to be a fly on the wall behind the scenes, so I just gather what I have and has been documented.

The issue of respect is not up to us to decide, its the players.
He showed his guts by fighting Guerin as a rook and should be commended. He pulled a Jordan Tootoo type bush league move by fighting Bell with his shield on. These two moves were complete opposite ends of the spectrum. I wouldnt be suprised if someone like McCarty takes him aside privately and lets him know that was wrong.
I will bet you that next time he fights he removes the shield.

And again Im a big fan of Phaneufs, but this was a cowardly move here.


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01-02-2006, 10:48 PM
  #48
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I don't know that Dion was protecting his goalie. If so, it took him long enough to get goin. I looked like everybody was grabbing everybody, & Bell got tired of Phaneuf holding him, so he threw an elbow.

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01-02-2006, 11:28 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
If you have it running and got it off the net, why don't you post the link? I think people who watch it themselves can draw to their own conclusions. That had been shoving before hand, but IMO the fight didn't start until after, but you know the old cliche's... your view, my view and the truth.
If the helmet was in his eyes, or any way shape or form, he would of moved the helmet back... Or perhaps taken it off? instead, during the fight he had time to stop fighting, Grab his helmet and firmly push it back on his head.

And once the helmet was taken off, he stopped fighting and tried to tie up Hatcher.

If he had the presence of mind to reach up with his hand and push his helmet back on his head, that means it wasnt a heat of the moment thing. he knew what he was doing.

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01-02-2006, 11:37 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by X8oD
If the helmet was in his eyes, or any way shape or form, he would of moved the helmet back... Or perhaps taken it off? instead, during the fight he had time to stop fighting, Grab his helmet and firmly push it back on his head.
Just wondering, IF this was done during the fight (Iginla stopped and readjusted) then wouldn't Iginla have gotten smoked?

Yes, he knew the visor and helmet was there.

It's funny, but a couple years ago, Iginla did have a couple fights where he removed his helmet before he fought. Then he stopped. That was my reasoning for believeing (its a guess) that the (unwritten) rule about removing the visor has been removed, and it happened at the same time the guy fighting (Thornton?) landed on his head and got taken off on a stretcher. At the same time, they stopped giving away unsportsmanlike conduct for those fighting with a visor as well. Coincidence?

And, once again, if you saw Iginla's opponent (Hatcher) most probalby wouldn't have a problem with it. Hatcher is one of the dirtiest, cheapest players in the league. I wouldn't shed a tear to see him stop disgracing the league.

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