What kind of deal would Gauthier show "courage and vision" with? Any deal taht leaves us with Eller and Dd as #1 and 2 going forward is sheer stupidity. I ahve pointed out how Staal and Getzlaf are not necessarily better for contractual reasons.
What teams traded their top players when their value was at their peak? Give me examples, and I don't mean UFA's where they traded them so they wouldn't lose them for nothing.
First of all, contracts reasons or not...having Staal or Getzlaf instead of Plekanec INSTANTLY makes this team better, you're crazy if you think otherwise. Now it depends what you'd give up to get them. I agree giving up Plekanec, Subban, prospect + 1st round pick doesn't make much sense though...
As for what kind of deal...you brought up Jeff Carter, that's a good example. Bobby Ryan is another player, we could go on and on and making up fantasy trade proposals is pretty useless IMO.
As for what examples...
Did the Flyers not move Jeff Carter and Mike Richards this past summer? Could you have imagined the Flyers trading either of those players 1 year prior? I doubt anyone here would have, but Holmgren had the vision too do it and he got excellent return for them.
Again, i don't expect people to agree with me...everyone here seems to think that trading undesirables will nab you front line players, no one is prepared to trade a player they 'like' to make the team better.
Plekanec bashers/trade-proposers should realize that not only does he play against the highest quality of competition of any forward on the team, and with lower quality linemates than Desharnais, he has a lower offensive zone start % than any other center on the team:
Gomez 62.2%
Desharnais 55.6%
Eller 49.3%
Nokelainen 42.7%
Plekanec 42.6%
If you are concerned that Plekanec's G-A-P totals aren't meeting your expectations this season, I suggest you should have more of a problem with the way coaches have been using him than with his actual skills. I also won't be surprised if he starts scoring in bunches if/when Eller is ready to take over Plekanec's responsibilities. Of course, at that point there will be posters clamoring to trade Eller!
Plekanec bashers/trade-proposers should realize that not only does he play against the highest quality of competition of any forward on the team, and with lower quality linemates than Desharnais, he has a lower offensive zone start % than any other center on the team:
Gomez 62.2%
Desharnais 55.6%
Eller 49.3%
Nokelainen 42.7%
Plekanec 42.6%
If you are concerned that Plekanec's G-A-P totals aren't meeting your expectations this season, I suggest you should have more of a problem with the way coaches have been using him than with his actual skills. I also won't be surprised if he starts scoring in bunches if/when Eller is ready to take over Plekanec's responsibilities. Of course, at that point there will be posters clamoring to trade Eller!
Hilarious...
I'm not a Plekanec basher and I haven't proposed any trade involving him. Maybe you would rather I discuss the virtues of trading Scott Gomez?
That would make alot more sense wouldn't it?
Typical Montreal fanbase...you want all the best players, but never want to give up anything of value
First of all, contracts reasons or not...having Staal or Getzlaf instead of Plekanec INSTANTLY makes this team better, you're crazy if you think otherwise. Now it depends what you'd give up to get them. I agree giving up Plekanec, Subban, prospect + 1st round pick doesn't make much sense though...
As for what kind of deal...you brought up Jeff Carter, that's a good example. Bobby Ryan is another player, we could go on and on and making up fantasy trade proposals is pretty useless IMO.
As for what examples...
Did the Flyers not move Jeff Carter and Mike Richards this past summer? Could you have imagined the Flyers trading either of those players 1 year prior? I doubt anyone here would have, but Holmgren had the vision too do it and he got excellent return for them.
Again, i don't expect people to agree with me...everyone here seems to think that trading undesirables will nab you front line players, no one is prepared to trade a player they 'like' to make the team better.
If you disregard contracts you make the exact same mistake Gainey did. Gomez was an upgrade over what we had but he had a terrible contract.
Staal has a bad contract, he will never play up to an 8.5 mil player. He can't do it with Skinner on the wing then he won't do it with Bourque and Moen/AK. Gomez II
Getzlaf is a UFA in July 2013, trading Plekanec for him right now would be stupid. Maybe after July 1st I would do it IF he is willing to sign an extension at a reasonable price(6.5-7.25 cap hit).
The Flyers traded Carter and Richards because they felt they weren't the leaders they wanted, their value wasn't low but it wasn't at an all-time high either. It wasn't a strategic move to maximise return, they were unhappy with the composition of their team and made changes...similar to the Cammalleri deal but on a bigger scale.
Last year, 53pts after signing a 6yr 30M contract? Not so much...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417
What's Plekanec doing for us this year?
When I look at the centers in the Habs organization...Plekanec, Desharnais, Eller, Bournival, etc, they're all the same types of players with similar potentials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417
So Plekanec's 57 points last year are 1st line worthy? Come on man...you're kidding yourself if you think he's a #1 center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417
Hilarious...
I'm not a Plekanec basher and I haven't proposed any trade involving him. Maybe you would rather I discuss the virtues of trading Scott Gomez?
That would make alot more sense wouldn't it?
Typical Montreal fanbase...you want all the best players, but never want to give up anything of value
Well, your earlier posts seem to be exactly what I was talking about - bashing Plekanec based on his G-A-P totals.
I don't assume we can acquire "all the best players." I advocate holding on to our best players, including Plekanec, acquiring undervalued players when available, and building through the draft.
If you disregard contracts you make the exact same mistake Gainey did. Gomez was an upgrade over what we had but he had a terrible contract.
Staal has a bad contract, he will never play up to an 8.5 mil player. He can't do it with Skinner on the wing then he won't do it with Bourque and Moen/AK. Gomez II
Getzlaf is a UFA in July 2013, trading Plekanec for him right now would be stupid. Maybe after July 1st I would do it IF he is willing to sign an extension at a reasonable price(6.5-7.25 cap hit).
The Flyers traded Carter and Richards because they felt they weren't the leaders they wanted, their value wasn't low but it wasn't at an all-time high either. It wasn't a strategic move to maximise return, they were unhappy with the composition of their team and made changes...similar to the Cammalleri deal but on a bigger scale.
like I said...i wouldn't give up the farm to get Staal or Getzlaf, so no point discussing that. It's out of the Habs price range
As for Carter/Richards...you asked for an example, I provided two. Not sure what else you want?
Again, give me both players to choose from...Plekanec and Carter, I'd take Carter 10x's out of 10.
especially considering it's almost the same cap hit, it's a no brainer.
the irony is that what you said could as easily be applied to the habs. team is a mess not putting too much stock in stats and so on..
give plek easier assignment, more offensive zone starts, better wingers, watch him get that 70-80 points. he's done it before. poor guy is basically used like a checking center now
as for carter or plek, i'd chose carter... maybe 7 times out of 10? his playing style creates holes you need to fill otherwise, guy gonna end up traded twice in the space of a year? that leaves me wondering.... lets just say that if gauthier pulled a trade like this i wouldn't be mad though
anyways, carter is a guy you should add to a guy like plekanec
Well, your earlier posts seem to be exactly what I was talking about - bashing Plekanec based on his G-A-P totals.
I don't assume we can acquire "all the best players." I advocate holding on to our best players, including Plekanec, acquiring undervalued players when available, and building through the draft.
I haven't bashed Plekanec once, IN FACT, i've written several times how I think he's a very good player, hell, the fact i'm discussing moving him is an indication that I think he has value. So enough with the bash talk, it's not my style, i'm not a child
I think holding onto your best players is a great idea, but it's not always the best idea. Sometimes you have get creative and maybe move a piece you'd rather keep to address an organizational need.
the irony is that what you said could as easily be applied to the habs. team is a mess not putting too much stock in stats and so on..
give plek easier assignment, more offensive zone starts, better wingers, watch him get that 70-80 points. he's done it before. poor guy is basically used like a checking center now
as for carter or plek, i'd chose carter... maybe 7 times out of 10? his playing style creates holes you need to fill otherwise, guy gonna end up traded twice in the space of a year? that leaves me wondering.... lets just say that if gauthier pulled a trade like this i wouldn't be mad though
anyways, carter is a guy you should add to a guy like plekanec
Plekanec has never gotten 80pts and never will...if that's your evaluation of him, then you're way off on the type of player he is. He maxed out his best year at 70pts, nothing wrong with that, he had a great year. But expecting more the way the team is currently constructed is fantasy IMO. He's not that type of player.
As for giving Plekanec easier assignments and/or better wingers...give me a break, Plekanec has played with a variety of wingers this year and he hasn't looked very good.
Eller and Plekanec have both shared alot of defensive responsibilities this year...so not sure why you keep harping on that??
Eller and Plekanec have both shared alot of defensive responsibilities this year...so not sure why you keep harping on that??
im 'harping' on that because it's still not really close between the two of them - especially when you factor in zone starts. plekanec is go-to guy for defensive assignments, something not really conducive to point-production
outside the scope of trading plekanec, and i wouldn't mind if the return is good, the habs need a proper shutdown center. badly
Plekanec has never gotten 80pts and never will...if that's your evaluation of him, then you're way off on the type of player he is. He maxed out his best year at 70pts, nothing wrong with that, he had a great year. But expecting more the way the team is currently constructed is fantasy IMO. He's not that type of player.
As for giving Plekanec easier assignments and/or better wingers...give me a break, Plekanec has played with a variety of wingers this year and he hasn't looked very good.
Eller and Plekanec have both shared alot of defensive responsibilities this year...so not sure why you keep harping on that??
I think he would be a 70 point guy year in and year out if he had a legit 30 goal winger. He had Cammalleri for 2+ years, 09-10 Cammy had 26 and Plekanec put up 70 points. Last yaer Cammy wasn't finishing and scored 19, Plekanec 57. Cammalleri keps struggling this year and it's impacting Plekanec's totals. Unless you are a superstar most NHLers can't put up big numbers by themselves.
If the Habs miss the playoffs as most people feel they will,then Gauthier should concentrate his efforts on the draft.That is unless he can swing a deal for team leaders like Evander Kane (Wpg) and Rick Nash (Col)with those wingers on Plekanec's line every team they play would have to use their best defensive forwards to slow them down.This would create so much scoring from other lines that sooner or later teams would be forced to match our first line with their #1 line.Boston would be the only team with three forwards that come close to matching skill,size and speed.+to the Habs with a line like that.
You don't think Plekanec could do better with Nash on his wing?
Carter is a better goal scorer but Plekanec does everything else better...defense, grit, heart, character and playmaker.
Nash? Not sure why you're bringing him up...I wouldn't pay the assets it would take to get Rick Nash anyways, so that's a non-issue for me.
as for your Carter vs Plekanec comparison, not sure I agree...grit, heart and character isn't really measurable, it's just your opinion and as far as Plekanec is concerned, as good of a player that he is, I don't personally think grit, heart and character are at the forefront of his attributes as a player.
I think they're both good players with different skills sets...I tend to this Carter's scoring ability, size, skating, right-handed shot and versatility could really help the Habs.
Like I said earlier, as much as I like Plek as a player, for Carter straight up? I wouldn't hesitate, and that doesn't have to mean it's a knock on Plekanec...
Two of the better power forwards in the NHL Rick Nash says he will drop his NTC if asked and Kane has haters in Winnipeg and isn't happy there they would both look great in the Habs lineup IMHO.
Nash? Not sure why you're bringing him up...I wouldn't pay the assets it would take to get Rick Nash anyways, so that's a non-issue for me.
as for your Carter vs Plekanec comparison, not sure I agree...grit, heart and character isn't really measurable, it's just your opinion and as far as Plekanec is concerned, as good of a player that he is, I don't personally think grit, heart and character are at the forefront of his attributes as a player.
I think they're both good players with different skills sets...I tend to this Carter's scoring ability, size, skating, right-handed shot and versatility could really help the Habs.
Like I said earlier, as much as I like Plek as a player, for Carter straight up? I wouldn't hesitate, and that doesn't have to mean it's a knock on Plekanec...
In terms of size I think Plekanec is heavier, Carter is built much like Pouliot(ok not quite that bad), not a big gym rat. Shot, I could really care less wether a guy shoots left or right.
The fact that Carter is moody and has laready worn out his welcome on 2 teams in the past year is a concern though.
