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Thomas Hickey, a bust?

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Old
01-25-2012, 10:09 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drugold View Post
Duncan Keith, without any major injuries, took two AHL seasons to crack into a much weaker NHL defense scoring at a rate similar to Thomas Hickeys. He is a similar height, weight and plays a similar game.

Your. post. is. a. bust.
Duncan Keith is the exception, not the rule.

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01-25-2012, 10:11 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Duncan Keith is the exception, not the rule.
Agree with this, but Duncan Keith makes it possible. Shattenkirk is another good example.

Hickey for Hamill!

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01-25-2012, 11:39 PM
  #53
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Duncan Keith is the exception, not the rule.
product of patience.

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01-26-2012, 01:42 AM
  #54
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Kings drafting is pretty overrated....

They've had numerous high picks over the years.

Kopitar is their best pick.
Doughty has underachieved the last two years.
Quick is obviously the best "steal" they've found.

Beyond that, all we heard for years is how much talent they have coming, the Hickey pick, was a typical egotistical Lombardi "i'm going to show everyone how smart I am" move, and unfortunately for him, it has backfired

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01-26-2012, 08:45 AM
  #55
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Hickey is in his 3rd pro season

He isn't a bust per se (much like Daigle wasn't really a bust). More of a poor pick.

IMO, a bust is a guy who never sees the show. Hickey could still play over 100 games (the make or break point of a guy being an NHLer at some point in his career).

That being said, a top 10 pick should net you a top 6, top 4, starting goalie.

There are more than a couple of D from his own draft year who have made it as well as D from later years (Voynov is a 2008 pick FFS).

A 4th overall pick should be able to make the NHL by the end of his ELC (and not get buried by guys taken with lower picks/journeymen NHL D).

To illustrate this:
Here are the other D picks drafted AFTER Hickey that have played at least 1 NHL game

Doughty (2, 2008)
Bogosian (3, 2008)
Pietrangelo (4, 2008)
Schenn (5, 2008)
Myers (12, 2008)
Teubert (13, 2008)
Karlsson (15, 2008)
Gardiner (17, 2008)
Sbisa (19, 2008)
Del Zotto (20, 2008)
Carlson (27, 2008)

(Note: that is all 1st round D except Cuma)

Voynov (32, 2008)
Josi (38, 2008)
Sauve (41, 2008)
Wiercioch (42, 2008)
Gaunce (50, 2008)
Hamonic (53, 2008)
Scandella (55, 2008)
Bourdon (67, 2008)
Kundratek (90, 2008)
Motin (103, 2008)
Brodie (113, 2008)
Borowiecki (139, 2008)
Larsen (149, 2008)
Spurgeon (156, 2008)
Holos (170, 2008)
Demers (186, 2008)
Bartkowski (190, 2008)


Hedman (2, 2009)
Ekman-Larsson (6, 2009)
Cowen (9, 2009)
Ellis (11, 2009)
de Haan (12, 2009)
Kulikov (14, 2009)
Leddy (16, 2009)
Rundblad (17, 2009)
Moore (21, 2009)
Erixon (23, 2009)
Olsen (28, 2009)
Despres (30, 2009)

(The ENTIRE 1st round D group has played at least 1 game)

Elliott (49, 2009)
Orlov (55, 2009)
McNabb (66, 2009)
Urbom (73, 2009)
Savard (94, 2009)
Ekholm (102, 2009)
Klementyev (122, 2009)


Gudbranson (3, 2010)
Fowler (12, 2010)
Faulk (37, 2010)


Larsson (4, 2011)

On top of that, there are 17 non-first round D from his year that have played NHL including Alec Martinez of LA. So, by my count, that is buried by Johnson (no questions there), Doughty (no questions, but he was a 2nd overall pick), Voynov (later draft and 2nd round), Martinez (same draft, later round), Mitchell, Drewiske, Greene and Scuderi (all journeymen).

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01-26-2012, 08:57 AM
  #56
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if people consider Filatov a bust then we should hold the same measuring stick here

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Old
01-26-2012, 12:36 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
No not really. Hickey has had his chances, he's a bust.
Meanwhile, defenseman like Alzner, Mcdonagh, Shattenkirk, Subban and Blum are already playing in top 4 roles.
We also have top dmen prospects in Aulie and Goncharov in later rounds.
For a #4 overall Hickey should be in the NHL, not still in the AHL.
He. Is. A. Bust.
I'll just echo what many Kings fans are saying in here.

Hickey is not a bust, but he is a certain disappointment.

Hickey was not, nor is not, worthy of a 4th overall pick. But he isn't a bust yet either. A bust would be the likes of fellow 4th overall picks Pavel Brendl, Jason Boisignore or Alex Volchkov, guys that didn't even play the equivalent of a full season in the NHL.

I'm not saying Hickey will not be a bust. He could be. But if he goes on to make the NHL next year and play 10 years as a #6 defenseman, he could easily play 600 or more NHL games. That's not a bust. Still could be a disappointment, but not a bust.

Hickey's an NHL all-star in his second full pro season and stuck behind a long depth chart of very good NHL defensemen. This upcoming training camp will be a big one for him for sure and likely give a better indication of if he's a bust or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post

Even as a bottom pairing guy, he has to be considered a bust. You don't draft 4th overall to get your next journeyman defenceman.
Agreed, you don't. But there's a difference between being a bust and being a disappointment. A bottom six journeyman who plays in the league for 10 years isn't what you want for a 4th overall pick, but it's not a bust either.

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01-26-2012, 12:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by HSF View Post
if people consider Filatov a bust then we should hold the same measuring stick here
Interesting point here, though I think two things play into it that seperate Hickey and Filatov.

The first being that Filatov is a forward, and Hickey isn't. Filatov should have had more openings in which to crack the NHl full time, and he was also on a weaker team in Columbus than Hickey is on LA. Filatov's NHl road should have been easier. Add in that Hickey's had two major injuries which have cost him a lot of development time (almost all of the 2009-2010 season for one) and Filatov's had an easier road.

The second is attitude, which is what Filatov seems to need to work on. His constant running back to Europe when he doesn't get what he wants is an issue, as is the lack of work ethic I've heard Columbus fans mention. Hickey doesn't have that issue of attitude holding him back.

Ask Columbus fans if they miss Filatov, you won't see much support. The fact Hickey is still overall supported by the Kings fan base shows the guy isn't as bad as some are claiming in this thread.

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Old
01-26-2012, 12:59 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I'll just echo what many Kings fans are saying in here.

Hickey is not a bust, but he is a certain disappointment.

Hickey was not, nor is not, worthy of a 4th overall pick. But he isn't a bust yet either. A bust would be the likes of fellow 4th overall picks Pavel Brendl, Jason Boisignore or Alex Volchkov, guys that didn't even play the equivalent of a full season in the NHL.

I'm not saying Hickey will not be a bust. He could be. But if he goes on to make the NHL next year and play 10 years as a #6 defenseman, he could easily play 600 or more NHL games. That's not a bust. Still could be a disappointment, but not a bust.

Hickey's an NHL all-star in his second full pro season and stuck behind a long depth chart of very good NHL defensemen. This upcoming training camp will be a big one for him for sure and likely give a better indication of if he's a bust or not.



Agreed, you don't. But there's a difference between being a bust and being a disappointment. A bottom six journeyman who plays in the league for 10 years isn't what you want for a 4th overall pick, but it's not a bust either.
Those are quite rational points.
Good job

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Old
01-26-2012, 04:50 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Kings drafting is pretty overrated....

They've had numerous high picks over the years.

Kopitar is their best pick.
Doughty has underachieved the last two years.
Quick is obviously the best "steal" they've found.

Beyond that, all we heard for years is how much talent they have coming, the Hickey pick, was a typical egotistical Lombardi "i'm going to show everyone how smart I am" move, and unfortunately for him, it has backfired
Blah Blah blah. Numerous high picks over the years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
Hickey is in his 3rd pro season

He isn't a bust per se (much like Daigle wasn't really a bust). More of a poor pick.

IMO, a bust is a guy who never sees the show. Hickey could still play over 100 games (the make or break point of a guy being an NHLer at some point in his career).

That being said, a top 10 pick should net you a top 6, top 4, starting goalie.

There are more than a couple of D from his own draft year who have made it as well as D from later years (Voynov is a 2008 pick FFS).

A 4th overall pick should be able to make the NHL by the end of his ELC (and not get buried by guys taken with lower picks/journeymen NHL D).

To illustrate this:
Here are the other D picks drafted AFTER Hickey that have played at least 1 NHL game

Doughty (2, 2008)
Bogosian (3, 2008)
Pietrangelo (4, 2008)
Schenn (5, 2008)
Myers (12, 2008)
Teubert (13, 2008)
Karlsson (15, 2008)
Gardiner (17, 2008)
Sbisa (19, 2008)
Del Zotto (20, 2008)
Carlson (27, 2008)

(Note: that is all 1st round D except Cuma)

Voynov (32, 2008)
Josi (38, 2008)
Sauve (41, 2008)
Wiercioch (42, 2008)
Gaunce (50, 2008)
Hamonic (53, 2008)
Scandella (55, 2008)
Bourdon (67, 2008)
Kundratek (90, 2008)
Motin (103, 2008)
Brodie (113, 2008)
Borowiecki (139, 2008)
Larsen (149, 2008)
Spurgeon (156, 2008)
Holos (170, 2008)
Demers (186, 2008)
Bartkowski (190, 2008)


Hedman (2, 2009)
Ekman-Larsson (6, 2009)
Cowen (9, 2009)
Ellis (11, 2009)
de Haan (12, 2009)
Kulikov (14, 2009)
Leddy (16, 2009)
Rundblad (17, 2009)
Moore (21, 2009)
Erixon (23, 2009)
Olsen (28, 2009)
Despres (30, 2009)

(The ENTIRE 1st round D group has played at least 1 game)

Elliott (49, 2009)
Orlov (55, 2009)
McNabb (66, 2009)
Urbom (73, 2009)
Savard (94, 2009)
Ekholm (102, 2009)
Klementyev (122, 2009)


Gudbranson (3, 2010)
Fowler (12, 2010)
Faulk (37, 2010)


Larsson (4, 2011)

On top of that, there are 17 non-first round D from his year that have played NHL including Alec Martinez of LA. So, by my count, that is buried by Johnson (no questions there), Doughty (no questions, but he was a 2nd overall pick), Voynov (later draft and 2nd round), Martinez (same draft, later round), Mitchell, Drewiske, Greene and Scuderi (all journeymen).
And how many of those guys lost a year due to injury?

Huh how exactly are those guys journeymen? Mitchell could be considered on but Greene and Scuderi have only played for two teams and Drewiske has never suited up for anyone but the Kings. Martinez is also older and has put in his time in the system and seniority plays a big role in how the Kings deal with their prospects.

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Old
01-26-2012, 05:16 PM
  #61
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Old
01-26-2012, 05:26 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Blah Blah blah. Numerous high picks over the years?

And how many of those guys lost a year due to injury?

Huh how exactly are those guys journeymen? Mitchell could be considered on but Greene and Scuderi have only played for two teams and Drewiske has never suited up for anyone but the Kings. Martinez is also older and has put in his time in the system and seniority plays a big role in how the Kings deal with their prospects.
EVERY player on the list was drafted AFTER Hickey (ie had one less year to begin with). Sauve played roughly as many games last year as Hickey did in his "injured" season, but played some NHL.

None of Mitchell, Greene, Scuderi, and Drewiske are core pieces. They are all spare parts. If Hickey were a great prospect, none of these guys would be in his way.

Martinez was drafted the SAME year. He was also drafted later. That isn't more seniority. It is a different path.

I'm not saying Hickey won't be an NHLer. I'm saying that he is very disappointing given where he was drafted (so far).

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Old
01-26-2012, 05:30 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
Scuderi (all journeymen).
Sorry to pinpoint one thing in your post to roast...but what?

Scuderi has played over 500 NHL games while spending his entire career (drafted in 1998) with just two organizations...and the only reason he's not still with the organization is because he had a free agency payday.

I'm taking it you're using the term to mean a guy that's fairly interchangeable (Greene has also only played for one other team while Drewiskie has never played for another team), but the terms don't mean the same thing. A player doesn't have to be a 'core' piece to be highly valuable to a team...and Scuderi is worth his contract. A guy like Scuderi shouldn't be held up as a measuring point for a prospect being a disappointment...most prospects aren't going to be able to unseat a #4 guy with the shutdown capabilities that Scuderi has.

On the flip side, I agree 100% that Hickey is a huge disappointment. The fact that he hasn't found a way to get 1 NHL game in yet is extremely disappointing and his potential is now (and really always was) well below what one expects for a 4th overall pick. He can still make a mark in the NHL, but he's not likely to come close to ever living up to his draft spot.

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Old
01-26-2012, 05:57 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
EVERY player on the list was drafted AFTER Hickey (ie had one less year to begin with). Sauve played roughly as many games last year as Hickey did in his "injured" season, but played some NHL.

None of Mitchell, Greene, Scuderi, and Drewiske are core pieces. They are all spare parts. If Hickey were a great prospect, none of these guys would be in his way.

Martinez was drafted the SAME year. He was also drafted later. That isn't more seniority. It is a different path.

I'm not saying Hickey won't be an NHLer. I'm saying that he is very disappointing given where he was drafted (so far).
Sauve didnt play roughly the same amount, he played over double the amount of games Hickey did. Thats a huge difference. Like I asked how many missed an entire year due to an injury?

I guarantee you Mitchell, Greene and Scuderi are all "core" pieces but those arent the guys Hickey has to surpass to get on the roster. Those guys are are physical, big shutdown defensemen, something Hickey isnt. Hes competing against Doughty, Johnson and Voynov.

Martinez is also 2 years older and has more playing time with the organization, hence he has seniority.

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01-26-2012, 06:18 PM
  #65
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Hickey would be on several NHL rosters. People forget he's stuck behind , Doughty, Johnson, and Voynov. No point in having the younger, higher potential Hickey sitting in the press box with Martinez and Drewiskie so he's in the minors for only his SECOND full season.

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01-26-2012, 06:38 PM
  #66
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Hickey would be on several NHL rosters.
Okay. I got the Oilers.. aaand..

??

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01-26-2012, 08:03 PM
  #67
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Drafted 4th overall in 2007 and almost 5 years later didn't play in single NHL game. It's as much bust as bust can possibly be. There were players with respectable NHL careers like Daigle or Stefan who are considered busts by consensus and even if some LAK posters live in some kind of weird twisted reality, where
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Hickey's an NHL all-star
and where Alzner, McDonagh, Subban or Shattenkirk are somehow worse than Mitchell, Scuderi and Voynov, in common sense reality Hickey is major bust without any doubts.

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01-26-2012, 08:05 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I'll just echo what many Kings fans are saying in here.

Hickey is not a bust, but he is a certain disappointment.

Hickey was not, nor is not, worthy of a 4th overall pick. But he isn't a bust yet either. A bust would be the likes of fellow 4th overall picks Pavel Brendl, Jason Boisignore or Alex Volchkov, guys that didn't even play the equivalent of a full season in the NHL.

I'm not saying Hickey will not be a bust. He could be. But if he goes on to make the NHL next year and play 10 years as a #6 defenseman, he could easily play 600 or more NHL games. That's not a bust. Still could be a disappointment, but not a bust.

Hickey's an NHL all-star in his second full pro season and stuck behind a long depth chart of very good NHL defensemen. This upcoming training camp will be a big one for him for sure and likely give a better indication of if he's a bust or not.



Agreed, you don't. But there's a difference between being a bust and being a disappointment. A bottom six journeyman who plays in the league for 10 years isn't what you want for a 4th overall pick, but it's not a bust either.
Agreed with all of this.

It was a bad pick, and its probably not going to work out for the Kings.

But hes not a bust yet. Hes still solidly improving in the AHL, is on target to be a serviceable NHL player at some point, and was unfortunate to be passed by a better similar prospect in Voynov in the Kings organization.

Id expect hell be trade bait at some point and then go on to have a serviceable career same way that former top-5 picks like Pouliot and Upshall didnt work out for the teams that drafted them but have hung around the league as solid depth players.

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01-26-2012, 08:18 PM
  #69
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Injuries have definitely set his progression back a couple seasons. He'd be a King if Doughty didn't fall in their lap for stinking up the joint.

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01-26-2012, 08:40 PM
  #70
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You would sure have to say so especially considering his draft spot. A really, really awful pick.

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01-26-2012, 10:55 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLuke87 View Post
Drafted 4th overall in 2007 and almost 5 years later didn't play in single NHL game. It's as much bust as bust can possibly be. There were players with respectable NHL careers like Daigle or Stefan who are considered busts by consensus and even if some LAK posters live in some kind of weird twisted reality, where and where Alzner, McDonagh, Subban or Shattenkirk are somehow worse than Mitchell, Scuderi and Voynov, in common sense reality Hickey is major bust without any doubts.
Obviously the part you quoted for me was a typo. I meant AHL all-star, not NHL all-star. I don't live in a weird twisted reality.

Also, I would at this moment in time take Scuderi and Mitchell over McDonagh, Alzner and Shattenkirk. In two years, no, but for what the Kings have and are doing, yes. We are a team trying to make the playoffs and go forward from there. You rely on veteran workhorses, not always emerging young guns. Subban is obviously a little different.

We know our team, we aren't just homers. We are the third best defense in the NHl right now for a reason. Scuderi and Mitchell are a big, big part of that and are our key shutdown guys and the glue to a defense that features a lot of youth in Johnson, Doughty, Voynov and Martinez. Today, I'll gladly take Mitchell and Scuderi over Alzner, Shattenkirk and McDonagh. Not two years from now, but today, yes.

And today is when Hickey is competing with those players, not two years from now.

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01-27-2012, 12:28 AM
  #72
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Hickey is the only dman taken in the top five in the last five years to have not only not played an nhl game, but all of the others are regulars in their lineups.

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01-27-2012, 01:30 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Hickey is the only dman taken in the top five in the last five years to have not only not played an nhl game, but all of the others are regulars in their lineups.
How many missed a full season and a half due to injury and are only in their 2nd AHL season?

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01-27-2012, 02:09 AM
  #74
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i went to a game earlier this month against Bridgeport. He was easily the worst player on the ice. turning the puck over, not playing the body, constantly out of postion. poor body language. He acted like he didnt want to be out there. he was barely moving his feet while he was out there. I have been to 4 games this year and in all of em hes barely looked like a AHL defenseman let alone a NHL one. Is he a bust? he sure looks like hes headed down that road.
Yes hes a AHL allstar. But as anyone who follows the AHL game knows the AHL AS game is more political with who goes to the game.
last year he did look better, but last year he also had Voynov as his defensive partner.

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01-27-2012, 02:21 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
i went to a game earlier this month against Bridgeport. He was easily the worst player on the ice. turning the puck over, not playing the body, constantly out of postion. poor body language. He acted like he didnt want to be out there. he was barely moving his feet while he was out there. I have been to 4 games this year and in all of em hes barely looked like a AHL defenseman let alone a NHL one. Is he a bust? he sure looks like hes headed down that road.
Yes hes a AHL allstar. But as anyone who follows the AHL game knows the AHL AS game is more political with who goes to the game.
last year he did look better, but last year he also had Voynov as his defensive partner.
I find the last bit hard to believe. Voynov was on the top pairing last year and Hickey wasn't.

Hickeys appointment to the all-star game, which comes from the coaches and players around the league, speaks to the level of respect the opposition has for him. Its easy to spot a defenseman putting up big numbers offensively, and something else to recognize a skilled player in his own end of the ice.


Hes learned to distribute the puck and support the play, said Monarchs head coach Mark Morris. And when hes playing that way hes very effective at helping us generate offense and is also more reliable defensively.

DL knew Hickey wasn't as good as Alzner at the time and said he was a 3 or 4 year project but felt his ceiling was too high to pass up.

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