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Carter/Richards production vs. new guys

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01-22-2012, 01:57 PM
  #101
Jtown
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still doesnt matter

Richards gets more icetime and has linemates. If his team is struggling to score, he's part of the the problem for sure
Do you know who Richards linemates are?

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01-22-2012, 02:01 PM
  #102
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Recently they've been Penner and Stoll. 3 and 5 goals a piece.

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01-22-2012, 02:05 PM
  #103
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Recently they've been Penner and Stoll. 3 and 5 goals a piece.
Lol exactly.

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01-22-2012, 02:09 PM
  #104
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still doesnt matter

Richards gets more icetime and has linemates. If his team is struggling to score, he's part of the the problem for sure
Please. Penner is a complete waste of space. The fact is they have 2 good centre and a stud goalie and that's it.

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01-22-2012, 02:26 PM
  #105
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Penner blows and Stoll is a center. And Stoll blows.


Early in the season Richards and Quick were keeping the Kings afloat by themselves.

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01-22-2012, 05:28 PM
  #106
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Penner blows and Stoll is a center. And Stoll blows.


Early in the season Richards and Quick were keeping the Kings afloat by themselves.
Richards is bad because he doesn't pass to his linemates, and then stand behind them to help guide their swing to put the puck in the net. It's all his fault, Simmonds is clearly a better hockey player.


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01-22-2012, 06:09 PM
  #107
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Richards is one of the best two way centers in the league. The constant bashing of our forming players terrible. Richards who was a fan favorite and was one of the Flyers best players is now disliked by some Flyer fans, even though he wanted to be a Flyer for life.

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01-22-2012, 06:20 PM
  #108
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These comparisons are tricky. Our newbies are surrounded by a more talented set of players so their pts may be higher. What would Richards' pts be like if he was here playing with the likes of G and Briere and Harts and Jagr?

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01-22-2012, 07:51 PM
  #109
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The Carter trade, even if Carter gets back to 40~-30~-70~ levels, is a win for us.

For the guaranteed 30 goals, 30 assists +60 points, good D, wicked wrister.

We got.

Voracek, a guy almost 5 years younger, who is a 50 point player, and will be in the 45-55 range for the 3rd year in a row, brings pretty good D, and a bucket full of creativity, and is learning to be a beast on the boards.

Incidentally, when Carter was 22 (before his beast season, so far the only year he has put up 70 in his career) he had put up 132 points in 225 games (.58ppg), Voracek put up 134 in 241 (.56ppg). Very similar numbers.

I don't think Voracek will ever hit 70 on a consistent basis, but I reckon he will be a 60 point guy (20 goals, 40 assists). If only he could shoot!

Couturier, if someone told me he would end up being the draft pick I would have laughed.

I think it is quite apparent from his play so far this year that his basement is Jordan Staal, 50 points a year and unbelievable defence, and his ceiling is PPG, Selke play, and IMO the kid has a lot of intangibles!

I would have traded Carter for the draft pick alone if I knew we were getting Coots, and that he would be playing so well as an 18-19 year old rookie! The sky is the limit with him.

As for the Richards trade... hmmmm. IMO the value is about even. Ofc this year Richie would help more than Simmonds and Schenn, but in the future, I can see Schenn being just as good a player as Richards, maybe slightly worse D, better Offensive upside.

And Simmonds is awesome, he looks to be developing into a 45-50 point guy, who grinds, fore-checks hard, goes to the net, prototypical flyers winger who can play 3rd line or top 6. + we got a 2nd rounder.

I can see in 5 years people looking at both trades as big wins for the flyers. IMO we got 4 players who can be a core of our top 9 for years. And that young core is starting to look scary as hell. 7 top 9 guys 25 or under.

Giroux
JVR
Schenn
Couturier
Voracek
Simmonds
Read

Add Rinaldo, Z and Sestito to that as 4th liners, we have 10 forwards who can play well in the NHL under 25. How many teams in the league can say that!

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01-22-2012, 07:57 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
Richards is one of the best two way centers in the league. The constant bashing of our forming players terrible. Richards who was a fan favorite and was one of the Flyers best players is now disliked by some Flyer fans, even though he wanted to be a Flyer for life.
I don't get it either. You can like the Richie trade for value or just be impartial but why so many Flyers fans now dislike him I will never understand.

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01-22-2012, 11:11 PM
  #111
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Outsiders perspective:

Carter Trade: You guys owned. Couturier is already fantastic and will only get better. Voracek, should top out as a 20-40-60 guy, which is pretty damn good.

Richards Trade: LA marginally wins, until we find out what Schenn is capable of. If Schenn becomes that 70 point #2C the whole hockey world thought he'd be, you guys win. If not, probably a tie.

Also, has there ever been any official word on what actually happened? Or since the summer has it been pretty quiet on the situation?

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01-22-2012, 11:24 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
Outsiders perspective:

Carter Trade: You guys owned. Couturier is already fantastic and will only get better. Voracek, should top out as a 20-40-60 guy, which is pretty damn good.

Richards Trade: LA marginally wins, until we find out what Schenn is capable of. If Schenn becomes that 70 point #2C the whole hockey world thought he'd be, you guys win. If not, probably a tie.

Also, has there ever been any official word on what actually happened? Or since the summer has it been pretty quiet on the situation?
There were a lot of unsubstantiated rumors.

I'm not entirely convinced they had a lot to do with it. When you look at the age of several key Flyers, the number of real prospects, and the number of draft picks...something had to give, soon. The team was on a precipice. The trades fixed most of those problems, and probably had a whole lot to do with the organization's reasoning.

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01-22-2012, 11:24 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
Outsiders perspective:

Carter Trade: You guys owned. Couturier is already fantastic and will only get better. Voracek, should top out as a 20-40-60 guy, which is pretty damn good.

Richards Trade: LA marginally wins, until we find out what Schenn is capable of. If Schenn becomes that 70 point #2C the whole hockey world thought he'd be, you guys win. If not, probably a tie.

Also, has there ever been any official word on what actually happened? Or since the summer has it been pretty quiet on the situation?
What the hell is up with this mentality? The point of a trade isn't to beat the other team, it's to improve YOUR team, regardless of what happens with the other one. If the trade made you worse off, then you lose, even if the other team is doing even worse now. And you also can't just say that just because a guy is playing a certain way on the other team, he'd play the same way on yours, so that logic gets thrown out.

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01-25-2012, 04:27 PM
  #114
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Our team has certainly become worse defensively, but better in total.

It seems our defensive corps get a lot of hate on here and with fans in general. But I don't really think it's our defense that's that bad, it's actually the same as last year. Actually our top5 in defense is by faaaar the most expensive in the NHL, and our top4 (with Pronger hurt) is still the most expensive top4 by far. I'll say that again, even without Pronger our top4 (Mesz, Timo, Carle and Coburn) is the most expensive in the NHL. Certainly not the best even if it's the highest paid, but above average.

I think it's the defensive play from our forwards that became worse this year.

Richards is all-world defensively and Carter is still better than most, even though he didn't kill a lot of penalties in the end to focus on offense. Richards would also have been a very viable option on the blue line on the power play. Remember his first few years when he played the blueline (right D in an umbrella situation IIRC) with Timonen, he was great.

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01-25-2012, 10:43 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by thephillyflu View Post
Our team has certainly become worse defensively, but better in total.

It seems our defensive corps get a lot of hate on here and with fans in general. But I don't really think it's our defense that's that bad, it's actually the same as last year. Actually our top5 in defense is by faaaar the most expensive in the NHL, and our top4 (with Pronger hurt) is still the most expensive top4 by far. I'll say that again, even without Pronger our top4 (Mesz, Timo, Carle and Coburn) is the most expensive in the NHL. Certainly not the best even if it's the highest paid, but above average.

I think it's the defensive play from our forwards that became worse this year.

Richards is all-world defensively and Carter is still better than most, even though he didn't kill a lot of penalties in the end to focus on offense. Richards would also have been a very viable option on the blue line on the power play. Remember his first few years when he played the blueline (right D in an umbrella situation IIRC) with Timonen, he was great.
Our forwards are awful defensively but our defencemen haven't helped the situation. The big worry is what will happen in the playoffs. Someone mentioned that in the third period against Florida we had 14 turnovers to Florida's 1. That's brutal. Bob saved us yesterday but when you have that many turnovers you're playing with fire. Giroux is fine as a penalty killer but 5 on 5 his defense is terrible.

People love to see fancy goals and dramatic saves but in the end it's understated defense that makes the difference.

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01-25-2012, 11:01 PM
  #116
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Hopefully, for the remainder of this season, Laviolette puts the team to task on tightening up puck possession and all-around defensive coverage. Cut down on cutesy flip passes and low-percentage moves, and start playing a stronger north-south game.

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01-25-2012, 11:05 PM
  #117
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As I've mentioned before, this team reminds me a lot of the Caps from a couple years ago; good at offense, not so good at defense. It didn't really work for them, I struggle to see it work for Philly.

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01-26-2012, 01:06 PM
  #118
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Our team last year didn't look too defensively responsible allowing an average of 5 goals a game against Boston and getting swept out of the playoffs. i don't care who the forwards are, this defense is way too soft tying up the body and clearing the front of the net without Pronger. The whole defense is also a turnover machine.

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01-26-2012, 01:27 PM
  #119
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I know the Richards deal was more of a future's deal with Schenn being in it and Simmonds being younger then Richards, but right now, Simmonds has 27 points this season and Richards has 26 points.

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01-26-2012, 01:36 PM
  #120
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I know the Richards deal was more of a future's deal with Schenn being in it and Simmonds being younger then Richards, but right now, Simmonds has 27 points this season and Richards has 26 points.
Simmonds benefits from playing on one of the top offenses in the league. Richards is hurt by playing on the worst. It isn't as simple as copying and pasting point totals without regard for context.

It's a bit like saying Wideman is better than Timonen because he has 3 more points.

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01-26-2012, 02:24 PM
  #121
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The two trades were absolute steals. It takes real balls to make both of them at the time though. The abuse that homer took around here for making the deals was crazy. Sure enough if we had received kadri + kuls then it would of been horrific.

But the Flyers robbed Columbus with their eyes wide open. Everyone knew what a terrible deal it was for them. Carter was and still isn't going to be the centre for Nash. The return of Couturier is also unbelievable. That along with the fact that Hamilton was still on the board.

The Richards trade is paying off immediately. With the constant rumours surrounding Richards, it was clearly affecting his play, and not only that, but affecting the flyers too. Whether the rumours were true or not it doesn't matter at this point. We were struggling with him at the helm and there wasn't a damn thing he could do about it.

Schenn brings a younger prospect that we all hope will be another Richards type player. It also returned Simmonds who is exactly what the team needed with a player like Lappy not playing last year. Funny, I was saying that there wern't many players in the league that could replace lappy, but Simmonds was one.

We also have a second round pick which could be extremely valuable considering the draft status that this draft has. We could pick up what would of been considered a bona-fide first round pick last year, this year.

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01-26-2012, 02:30 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
The Richards trade is paying off immediately. With the constant rumours surrounding Richards, it was clearly affecting his play, and not only that, but affecting the flyers too. Whether the rumours were true or not it doesn't matter at this point. We were struggling with him at the helm and there wasn't a damn thing he could do about it.
NHL standings at the end of play on Tuesday, January 25, 2011

Teams ranked by points over .500 GP WOT LOT GF GA P
Philadelphia Flyers +21 50 33 3 17 5 174 130 71
Vancouver Canucks +20 49 30 4 19 9 163 120 69
Pittsburgh Penguins +16 50 31 5 19 4 154 114 66
Detroit Red Wings +16 48 29 9 19 6 163 142 64
Tampa Bay Lightning +16 51 31 11 20 5 154 154 67
Dallas Stars +14 49 29 8 20 5 144 136 63
Washington Capitals +13 50 27 6 23 9 140 128 63
Boston Bruins +12 49 27 2 22 7 150 111 61

NHL standings at the end of play on Wednesday, January 25, 2012

Teams ranked by points over .500 GP WOT LOT GF GA P
New York Rangers +19 47 31 5 16 4 132 96 66
Boston Bruins +17 47 31 6 16 2 171 102 64
Detroit Red Wings +17 50 33 8 17 1 160 117 67
St. Louis Blues +16 49 29 3 20 7 124 102 65
Vancouver Canucks +15 49 30 7 19 4 158 122 64
Philadelphia Flyers +15 48 29 5 19 5 162 142 63
Chicago Blackhawks +14 50 29 7 21 6 162 144 64
Nashville Predators +14 50 30 6 20 4 140 127 64


Right....

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01-26-2012, 02:47 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
NHL standings at the end of play on Tuesday, January 25, 2011

Teams ranked by points over .500 GP WOT LOT GF GA P
Philadelphia Flyers +21 50 33 3 17 5 174 130 71
Vancouver Canucks +20 49 30 4 19 9 163 120 69
Pittsburgh Penguins +16 50 31 5 19 4 154 114 66
Detroit Red Wings +16 48 29 9 19 6 163 142 64
Tampa Bay Lightning +16 51 31 11 20 5 154 154 67
Dallas Stars +14 49 29 8 20 5 144 136 63
Washington Capitals +13 50 27 6 23 9 140 128 63
Boston Bruins +12 49 27 2 22 7 150 111 61

NHL standings at the end of play on Wednesday, January 25, 2012

Teams ranked by points over .500 GP WOT LOT GF GA P
New York Rangers +19 47 31 5 16 4 132 96 66
Boston Bruins +17 47 31 6 16 2 171 102 64
Detroit Red Wings +17 50 33 8 17 1 160 117 67
St. Louis Blues +16 49 29 3 20 7 124 102 65
Vancouver Canucks +15 49 30 7 19 4 158 122 64
Philadelphia Flyers +15 48 29 5 19 5 162 142 63
Chicago Blackhawks +14 50 29 7 21 6 162 144 64
Nashville Predators +14 50 30 6 20 4 140 127 64


Right....
Okay, and how did the Flyers do the rest of the season, down the stretch, and in the playoffs? Furthermore, it became obvious that a leadership void existed.

I know, how dare anyone speak ill of Mike Richards, right? I respect your opinion and actually think you're one of the best posters on this board. But listen, we get it, you've loved Richards since his days with Kitchener and will defend him against any and all detractors. I have nothing against him as a player and enjoyed the time he spent wearing a Flyers sweater, but it's obvious there was something wrong in that locker room and the team atmosphere had turned toxic. Richards and Carter were part of, if not THE, problem; they were regarded as cancers and summarily excised. If you want to say the rumors about their off-ice behavior were unsubstantiated, that's fine, but it's been well-documented both here and on other sites by certain people in the know that the rumors were, in fact, substantiated -- at least to the degree that the team's owner wanted both of them gone. It's a shame things had to unfold the way they did, but it happened, and there's plenty of blame to go around. Time to let bygones be bygones and move on.

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01-26-2012, 02:50 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
The two trades were absolute steals. It takes real balls to make both of them at the time though. The abuse that homer took around here for making the deals was crazy. Sure enough if we had received kadri + kuls then it would of been horrific.

But the Flyers robbed Columbus with their eyes wide open. Everyone knew what a terrible deal it was for them. Carter was and still isn't going to be the centre for Nash. The return of Couturier is also unbelievable. That along with the fact that Hamilton was still on the board.

The Richards trade is paying off immediately. With the constant rumours surrounding Richards, it was clearly affecting his play, and not only that, but affecting the flyers too. Whether the rumours were true or not it doesn't matter at this point. We were struggling with him at the helm and there wasn't a damn thing he could do about it.

Schenn brings a younger prospect that we all hope will be another Richards type player. It also returned Simmonds who is exactly what the team needed with a player like Lappy not playing last year. Funny, I was saying that there wern't many players in the league that could replace lappy, but Simmonds was one.

We also have a second round pick which could be extremely valuable considering the draft status that this draft has. We could pick up what would of been considered a bona-fide first round pick last year, this year.
Eh, not really; you're using a lot of hindsight here. It was indeed very questionable that he and Nash would ever work together, but it wasn't a blatant steal; the value was definitely damned good though. We didn't know Couturier would drop to 8th. So at the time it was pretty much Voracek and the hope that our 8th overall pick would be pretty good. It didn't become a robbery until we got both Couturier and Voracek. If Howson had known he would drop I doubt he makes that deal.

EDIT: I've always wondered why Richards gets all the blame for turning the locker room toxic (allegedly)...and none goes to Pronger. Everything seemed fine and good until Pronger showed up. As for the leadership void, I don't know how you can blame Richards alone for that without also blaming Briere, Pronger, Timonen, etc.

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01-26-2012, 03:02 PM
  #125
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Eh, not really; you're using a lot of hindsight here. It was indeed very questionable that he and Nash would ever work together, but it wasn't a blatant steal; the value was definitely damned good though. We didn't know Couturier would drop to 8th. So at the time it was pretty much Voracek and the hope that our 8th overall pick would be pretty good. It didn't become a robbery until we got both Couturier and Voracek. If Howson had known he would drop I doubt he makes that deal.

EDIT: I've always wondered why Richards gets all the blame for turning the locker room toxic (allegedly)...and none goes to Pronger. Everything seemed fine and good until Pronger showed up. As for the leadership void, I don't know how you can blame Richards alone for that without also blaming Briere, Pronger, Timonen, etc.
I thought the Carter trade was a steal from the very start (even before Couturier slid to us), but I was also never a fan of his and was ecstatic to see him dealt, so I'm pretty sure my opinion would be classified under "heavily biased."

As I said, there's plenty of blame to go around, and the veterans -- especially two former captains -- shouldn't be totally absolved. However, you have to wonder why there weren't negative rumblings about Briere and Timonen's influence in the locker room. Richards was certainly not the only problem, but when you wear the "C," the weight of responsibility is ultimately going to rest on your shoulders.

Everything seemed fine and good until Pronger showed up? I don't think that's 100% true. Perhaps there weren't significant fractures within the locker room, but there's no question that a general concern existed within the organization about the professionalism of the young players and their behavior off the ice.

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