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01-20-2012, 10:28 PM
  #26
stalockrox
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Originally Posted by dmband View Post
Sexsmith has no value. In your scenario above, Buffalo d/n value Sesmxith above Leggio or MacIntyre. Assuming Stalock is healthy in all likeiihood Sexsmith gets "loaned" to another AHL team for the playofff run. This helps Sexsmith career and SJ gets nothing out of it.

Irwin is the only player in Worcester with any value at all. He may move at the deadline.

SJ is hosed, If they need to upgrade slots for the cup run, it will come at the expense of picks.
That is intirely your opinion...in my opinion, a 22 year old goalie w/ upside has more value than a 27 year old and 28 year old career AHL/minor leaguers.

But like I said, that was just an example as you (or me or anyone else on these boards) don't have any insight at all as to what Sharks prospects other organizations might value.


Last edited by stalockrox: 01-20-2012 at 10:35 PM.
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01-20-2012, 10:38 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
That is intirely your opinion...in my opinion, a 22 year old goalie w/ upside has more value than a 27 year old and 28 year old career AHL/minor leaguers.

But like I said, that was just an example as you (or me or anyone else on these boards) don't have any insight at all as to what other organizations may value in a prospect.
True, it is about opinion.

My opinion in how messed up the SJ org is....

We have an NHL goalie in Worcester and a AHL goalie in Stocton
2 players with NHL contracts in Worcester - one who has earned it.
A goalie who is on a 130 minute plus shutout streak, is in the stands and will be at least 4 games before he plays again.
a #1 pick is in his third year as the 8th dman in the lineup playing forward with absolutely no clue (and not his fault).

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01-20-2012, 10:40 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by dmband View Post
True, it is about opinion.

My opinion in how messed up the SJ org is....

We have an NHL goalie in Worcester and a AHL goalie in Stocton
2 players with NHL contracts in Worcester - one who has earned it.
A goalie who is on a 130 minute plus shutout streak, is in the stands and will be at least 4 games before he plays again.
a #1 pick is in his third year as the 8th dman in the lineup playing forward with absolutely no clue (and not his fault).
I get it, Worcester fans are unhappy...I don't blame you guys for being unhappy. I also get how these issues could hurt the NHL club but you'll have to forgive those of us who don't think the entire org is messed up.

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01-20-2012, 10:43 PM
  #29
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The negativity in this thread is just lame guys. I hope you people aren't serious. We get rid of Niitty and we have plenty of capspace with which to accommodate additional players. The number of contracts isn't a problem when you consider we can send a prospect with a pick and or Niitty or a player. Clowe will be back, so should glass man Havlat. Our defensive depth is better than last years, we just dug another hole to fill in the old one. Giving up Seto and Heatley hurt more than some thought it would, hence our craptacular PP. Devils got Ponikarovsky for next to nothing, and I admit he sucks but if they can get him for Joe Sova and 2012 4th the Sharks can get someone decent for a 2nd. McGinn stepping up has helped ease the loss of Seto and there are rumors that Wilson might even be looking for a top 6. I think it isn't out of the question for the Sharks to get a player like Peverley, in fact I've been saying they should for sometime now and think they will. The Kelly acquisition was great for the Bruins, but that's why we brought in Handzus. Zeus hasn't been all that and a bag of chips but he's not terrible, you try getting points setting up Torrey "hands of stone" Mitchell. Sharks fans always think the sky is falling, we're never going to make it until we do and I think we are one or two acquisitions away from being in serious contention for the cup.

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01-20-2012, 10:48 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I get it, Worcester fans are unhappy...I don't blame you guys for being unhappy. I also get how these issues could hurt the NHL club but you'll have to forgive those of us who don't think the entire org is messed up.
What are you going to do if you dont win the cup this year? You dont draft high, you have zero left in the pipeline. Assuming you dont win this year, what is next step?

PS I am a Sabres fan and that disaster is incomprehensible.

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01-20-2012, 10:51 PM
  #31
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What are you going to do if you dont win the cup this year? You dont draft high, you have zero left in the pipeline. Assuming you dont win this year, what is next step?
They try again the next year? The window doesn't close after this season.

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01-20-2012, 10:53 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by dmband View Post
What are you going to do if you dont win the cup this year? You dont draft high, you have zero left in the pipeline. Assuming you dont win this year, what is next step?

PS I am a Sabres fan and that disaster is incomprehensible.
Try again next year. Although Boyle is getting up there in age, Marleau and Thornton are only 32, which isn't the end of the world. We have tons of defense prospects and goalie prospects, so if we don't win in the next two or three years, we change the system and become a more defensive team.

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01-20-2012, 10:58 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by dmband View Post
What are you going to do if you dont win the cup this year? You dont draft high, you have zero left in the pipeline. Assuming you dont win this year, what is next step?

PS I am a Sabres fan and that disaster is incomprehensible.
Don't know, that's why I'm a fan posting my opinions and not paid to be a GM.

I'll still be buying season tickets and enjoying (usually) watching the games. I want this team to win a cup as bad as everyone else which will never come close to how badly the players, the coach and the GM want it, I'm just along for the ride.

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01-20-2012, 11:00 PM
  #34
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per WorSharks radio broadcast
Yuck.

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01-20-2012, 11:12 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmband View Post
2 players with NHL contracts in Worcester - one who has earned it.
If I'm counting correctly, Worcester has 20 players on NHL contracts, 2 on AHL SPCs, and 3 AHL PTOs.

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Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
The number of contracts isn't a problem ...
Sharks are sitting at 49 active NHL contracts (plus three signed juniors). Max limit on contracts is 50. Last season the Sharks were also at 49; they hit 50 when they called up JP Anderson for a couple of games -- that gave them zero flexibility for that time.

So, yes, it is a problem and must be considered in a trade deal or a waiver deal.

Sharks would love someone to pick up McLaren on waivers if for nothing else, they have another contract spot. If they wanted to be reckless regarding # of contracts, they might even put in a waiver wire bid on some of the guys that have been out there recently.

The Sharks will not do a send-two-get-three kind of deal. (Now, if a prospect is not signed, that's different.)

They might even value a NHL roster spot and NHL contract spot by putting Niitty on waivers and giving him up for nothing.

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01-20-2012, 11:31 PM
  #36
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If I'm counting correctly, Worcester has 20 players on NHL contracts, 2 on AHL SPCs, and 3 AHL PTOs.
He's referring to actual salary (Moore and MacIntyre).

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01-20-2012, 11:48 PM
  #37
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What a train wreck.

I know it's premature and sounds like negativity, but this whole org is totally hosed this season heh. Worcester is obviously worse off, but I just cant see the Sharks doing anything in the playoffs of note.

I expect a first or second round exit, a mediocre first rounder again (which we'll probably trade at the deadline anyway) and more revamping next season without addressing the real issues (Coaching, depth, speed, etc)
I know it looks bad, and I'm down on our depth as well (especially forwards), but we are dealing with some key injuries and still winning a ton of games. The best teams win the most games, and we're right up at the top.

We'll get some forward at the deadline, and we'll be a force come playoff time.

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01-21-2012, 12:21 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
If I'm counting correctly, Worcester has 20 players on NHL contracts, 2 on AHL SPCs, and 3 AHL PTOs.



Sharks are sitting at 49 active NHL contracts (plus three signed juniors). Max limit on contracts is 50. Last season the Sharks were also at 49; they hit 50 when they called up JP Anderson for a couple of games -- that gave them zero flexibility for that time.

So, yes, it is a problem and must be considered in a trade deal or a waiver deal.

Sharks would love someone to pick up McLaren on waivers if for nothing else, they have another contract spot. If they wanted to be reckless regarding # of contracts, they might even put in a waiver wire bid on some of the guys that have been out there recently.

The Sharks will not do a send-two-get-three kind of deal. (Now, if a prospect is not signed, that's different.)

They might even value a NHL roster spot and NHL contract spot by putting Niitty on waivers and giving him up for nothing.
I added the caveat that it was a problem if the sharks send a player or prospect with a contract out while acquiring a player. I'm fully aware of how close we are to the limit. I was trying to say I expect the Sharks to do a move similar to what they did with Joslin last season. Package a prospect with a pick and possibly a player in order to make up the contract space and cap space needed to take on another player. We have a few prospects that might draw some interest in a trade if only for "future considerations", doesn't Moore have an expiring contract? Also I think I remember we were given a pick last season in order to take a prospect or two off, I think it was Atlanta's hands. I believe it was when Chicago was exploded. I didn't mean to to say it wasn't a serious concern only that its not hard to rectify.

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01-21-2012, 12:43 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
He's referring to actual salary (Moore and MacIntyre).
IOW players on NHL contracts that are "one-way" (not "two-way" contracts which have a lesser $$ paid if player is in minors).

That's very different wording.

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01-21-2012, 01:52 AM
  #40
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What are you going to do if you dont win the cup this year? You dont draft high, you have zero left in the pipeline. Assuming you dont win this year, what is next step?
The team doesn't have "zero" left in the pipeline, but most of the talent is for the lower lines like Wingels, McCarthy. Sharks should still have two or so years in their window after this year, which is when the contracts of Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Couture and Boyle all expire.

Besides, this year's draft is supposedly very deep. Even drafting low first like the Sharks will, should net them a great prospect, and the team has two (iirc) second round picks to boot. That's a quick infusion of top tier talent into the system.

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01-21-2012, 02:21 AM
  #41
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BTW, regarding players with NHL contracts in the AHL, there is little difference to the AHL team WRT their salary (e.g., two-way, or one-way). (IIRC there is no team "cap" on AHL salaries. There's a cap in the ECHL and players with contracts in "upper" leagues assigned there are "counted" as if they had the max league salary, regardless of their actual $$.)

So, it's really only an issue to the owners in that they're paying out more than the might if they only had players with two-way contracts.

It's not a matter of cap, just the owners' bottom line.

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01-21-2012, 07:18 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
BTW, regarding players with NHL contracts in the AHL, there is little difference to the AHL team WRT their salary (e.g., two-way, or one-way). (IIRC there is no team "cap" on AHL salaries. There's a cap in the ECHL and players with contracts in "upper" leagues assigned there are "counted" as if they had the max league salary, regardless of their actual $$.)

So, it's really only an issue to the owners in that they're paying out more than the might if they only had players with two-way contracts.

It's not a matter of cap, just the owners' bottom line.
It's a matter of two players being overpaid to play on team that obviously has a player budget, and because of that it limits the type of resources that team can use. That is more than a "little difference".

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01-21-2012, 07:20 AM
  #43
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He's referring to actual salary (Moore and MacIntyre).
Yeah, his comment was pretty clear to those that got the nuance of his statement.

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01-21-2012, 10:28 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
BTW, regarding players with NHL contracts in the AHL, there is little difference to the AHL team WRT their salary (e.g., two-way, or one-way). (IIRC there is no team "cap" on AHL salaries. There's a cap in the ECHL and players with contracts in "upper" leagues assigned there are "counted" as if they had the max league salary, regardless of their actual $$.)

So, it's really only an issue to the owners in that they're paying out more than the might if they only had players with two-way contracts.

It's not a matter of cap, just the owners' bottom line.
Yep. And that's what it is. MacIntyre and Moore make up around 50% of salary for a game roster. Take MacIntyre's salary out of the equation and we are down near (or at) the bottom.
Take MacIntyre's salary, and you could have signed 2 top ten scorers in the AHL. If you wanted, you could pick up guys who won at the pro level, to show the young guys what that is like (especially since SJ hasn't won the big one yet), or, you get those guys for depth for SJ in case of injuries like SJ has now.
All thats happening now (and for most of the past 10 years) is they're teaching guys how it feels to lose, not win - and "we'll get'em next year".

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01-21-2012, 11:20 AM
  #45
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Yep. And that's what it is. MacIntyre and Moore make up around 50% of salary for a game roster. Take MacIntyre's salary out of the equation and we are down near (or at) the bottom.
Take MacIntyre's salary, and you could have signed 2 top ten scorers in the AHL. If you wanted, you could pick up guys who won at the pro level, to show the young guys what that is like (especially since SJ hasn't won the big one yet), or, you get those guys for depth for SJ in case of injuries like SJ has now.
All thats happening now (and for most of the past 10 years) is they're teaching guys how it feels to lose, not win - and "we'll get'em next year".
I agree with your main point but have some quibbles and some expansion on the issue.
  • I can point to 4 teams that consistently hire mercenaries for their minor league affiliates, Boston, Pitt, Wash and Buffalo. They consistently get lower line players that can be called up and contribute.
  • Having those players does not strongly correlate with winning cups at the NHL level.
  • Successful affiliates tend to go with less experienced coaches. Younger hotshots who are anxious to crack the NHL coaching fraternity. Longevity is not good in terms of AHL coaches both for development and for AHL success.
  • Teams that are successful at the AHL level tend to go for playmakers in drafting. This is a very weak point for the Sharks who concentrate on dmen, goalies and grinders. They are consistently going outside their own for playmakers. They have had success with this formula for goalies. Not so much dmen as they have yet to draft a #1 defender (flawed strategy as identifying the truly elite defenders when they are draft age is a much more hit and miss proposition than forwards). An example of a team that goes for playmakers has been Philly and it shows in their NHL success. The Sharks affiliate has had some moderate success when they stumble upon a playmaker in drafting and bring him through the AHL.

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01-21-2012, 12:02 PM
  #46
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I'd be real interested in hearing about those mercenaries Boston and Buffalo sign for their minor league team.

Washington's AHL affiliate is Hershey, who is one of the very few AHL teams that has some roster control and signs some of their own players.

And Pittsburgh has a issues outside signing veterans and it shows on their NHL roster--something I'm sure your research shows.

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01-21-2012, 02:11 PM
  #47
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I'd be real interested in hearing about those mercenaries Boston and Buffalo sign for their minor league team.

Washington's AHL affiliate is Hershey, who is one of the very few AHL teams that has some roster control and signs some of their own players.

And Pittsburgh has a issues outside signing veterans and it shows on their NHL roster--something I'm sure your research shows.
Yup on Pitt. Although they have grabbed vets recently on the NHL level. They have grabbed vets for WB in the past.

Boston, Hennessey recently and Whitfield on a comeback although originally drafted by Boston. Buffalo, I have to go and check (missed on the name on the tip of my tongue). This comes from a range of about 8 years of checking. It is not up to date so an org may have changed. Grand Rapids (Det) has done some vets in the past, particularly when Flipper and Cuddles were coming through the system.

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01-25-2012, 02:25 PM
  #48
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And heading tack to Worcester today. (Don't know if he'll be there in time for game, but definitely available for game on Saturday.)

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01-26-2012, 03:54 PM
  #49
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And heading tack to Worcester today. (Don't know if he'll be there in time for game, but definitely available for game on Saturday.)
I thought he was injured?

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01-26-2012, 03:59 PM
  #50
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I thought he was injured?
Maybe that's Wingels you're thinking of?

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