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Brunet Gives Timmins some love (disses french media?)

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Old
01-27-2012, 11:57 AM
  #76
Et le But
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Yeah, perhaps I underrate US High School competition but while it's important to scout I don't think it's where to look for your first draft pick. We aren't talking NCAA vs CHL here, the competition is notably less.

I can't think of any high draft pick from recent memory from USHS that has looked good in retrospect. Jake Gardiner might be the first one.

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01-27-2012, 12:05 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What does "playing in your backyard" have to do with anything? If you limit yourself with drafting guys that are close to you, you won't be a very good head scout.

You're out of your mind if you think Fischer didn't "play against anybody with talent" Minnesota high school is a high level of competition. I think Bjugstad and Nelson were playing there and both were 2010 1st rounders, both look like very good prospects. Fischer's development had nothing to do with that, he also played in the very strong WCHA which has developped a ton of NHL talent.

There is no exact formula for always drafting the best player, if there was scouts would never draft busts...and the best scouts draft non NHLers 65% of the time.
It is not solely about drafting guys in your own backyard. Yet, when you can specialize yourself in something, just be sure you are more right than wrong. See, looking at the Habs draft in the US, you'd have a tendancy to think that the US is OUR own backyard. Yet, I,m so-so as far as our results as far as American players aside from MaxPac and McDo. But when you believe in a system and place like they do as far as the US are concerned, we have to have better drafts than this. And you HAVE to be better at the free agent market though DiSimone should end up being a nice pick up. But you should be much better at finding a Read or even a Bozak than a Trotter, though Trotter could be on the verge of finding a NHL spot so we'll see.

When it comes to Q though, we are the ONLY team that does a Q combine aside from the other combine. I personnally think it's a marketing thing yet, they do it, so be it. So we should have an advantage over the others. We should have along with some other teams over teams who do not have even a part time scout in the Q. We should have the advantage over teams who just don't believe in that league and just don't draft from there.

And mainly, if you have to draft a boom or bust prospect, I'd pick a boom or bust local prospect. Some said that there is no way we'd knew Giroux would have been that good based on his size. I say that history shows that guys who has such improvements in the later years of their development, more often than not shows that they will become something great, see Giroux, see Perron.

As far as Minny hockey and all, true that there is some talent out there. Unfair to say that it's a really weak pool of talent. Yet, I hope people don't take the Mr. Hockey award as a proof of how great those talents are. Though lately, it looks better, but history shows that there are a lot of no-names out there compared to high profile players. Lately, we will see what Ness will be doing. Leddy will end up being a pretty good player so should Bjugstad be. And my favorite Kyle Rau, well we'll see how his size will play for or against him. Obviously, whenever you compare it to other leagues, chances are you will also find players who didn't make a career or were just pluggers at the NHL level. But chances are for the Q, you will find more high profile names that won the most valuable trophy or whatever you want to kind to compare it to the Mr. Hocke award (by the way, I know you were not talking about that, was just going a little further than the "Minnesota hockey" conversation.

As far as Giroux is concerne, well for me, I will always remember what Timmins told me first hand. He didn't like Giroux's foot speed. And for a player of his stature, it would hold him back at the NHL level......Said that Mathieu Carle ate Giroux alive in that department during the Q combine. What can I tell you....I didn't invent this.

Personnally, I think I like to concentrate more on the way of thinking instead of the "He should have gotten him" in complete hindsight. And to a certain extent, I believe that we could have the upper hand as far as the Q is concerned based on the advantages that we have and named before. Some will say that the Q isn't what it used to be. Of course. Yet, there are still some names out there. And you don't need to draft 12 Q. You might only need 1 to turn things around. And yet, who knows? I keep hearing that if you would have drafted Carter or Getzlaf, who knows how they would have develop here....well why can't it be the same for Q players who didn't develop properly elsewhere? Possible that those Q players WOULD have developed better in here for a change?

My personal opinion is that we can do better. Actually we have no choice but to do better. Of course, Timmins NEEDS picks so would be nice to have a management who keeps them. But with all everything that is going right now, draft is THE way to go. So let's hope for a more present draft team everywhere in the world. But let's hope that with the way they are using their money and trust for the US (with all those picks and scouts) and for the Q (with that extra combine and extra attention that people are giving to Q players), that they have a better average than what they have now. And not only draft Q guys but the right ones. Surely, they can't be always right. Yet, nobody expect them to be. But when the draft is the crucial part of how your team will indeed get better, well you just need to do better. And be more aware of where other teams might not be as present as you are.

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01-27-2012, 12:08 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Yeah, perhaps I underrate US High School competition but while it's important to scout I don't think it's where to look for your first draft pick. We aren't talking NCAA vs CHL here, the competition is notably less.

I can't think of any high draft pick from recent memory from USHS that has looked good in retrospect. Jake Gardiner might be the first one.
Sometimes you have to gamble on an unconventional source if your scouting staff really believes in a guy. Look at how many teams shied away from picking Kopitar because no one good had ever come out of Slovenia. Drafting isn't a thing that results in linear results. Its a series of gambles on predicting the future which nobody is all that good at. The key is to be better than the other guy and that shows up in how many good versus bad bets you make over dozens of picks across several years. So the surest sign that you have a good scout is the ability to produce volumes of players over the years, which Montreal has excelled at under Timmins.

Who picked a great player at one particular point in the past is too random of an event to judge based on. The other guy could have had a terrible process but just gotten lucky (although in Giroux's case, Philadelphia is pretty good at picking first rounders. They suck at the rest of the draft though). And just because you're good doesn't mean there aren't other good drafting teams out there that can scoop you from time to time.

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01-27-2012, 12:21 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Yeah, perhaps I underrate US High School competition but while it's important to scout I don't think it's where to look for your first draft pick. We aren't talking NCAA vs CHL here, the competition is notably less.

I can't think of any high draft pick from recent memory from USHS that has looked good in retrospect. Jake Gardiner might be the first one.
McD? And he is looking better than Gardiner. Are you insane?

As far as the Fischer pick goes, yes it was horrible and I'm sure no one can come up with enough excuses to make it look good. HOWEVER, I do take solace in the fact Timmins actually picked up on new trends fairly quickly when he tried to get a big, smooth skating, 2-way guy with lots of room for development in a lesser scouted league.

Yeah it didn't pay off, but he tried to pull a fast one on the other GMs on what would become the hot commodity in today's NHL.

And the reason you pick first rounders in the USHS is because you won't be getting them elsewhere since someone else will scoop them up. If you believe in a player, I doubt him playing in a lesser league would be a strong enough deterrent to let him get chosen by another team.

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01-27-2012, 12:35 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
Timmins is the man, I would keep him without a doubt. Love the job he's done so far.


But in 2006, yes I would have. We can all play the hindsight is 20/20 game. But in 2006 our main need was a BIG talented centreman. Berglund was rated about equal to Giroux by many scouts. Had I been the one to have final say, I would have picked Berglund over Giroux with the thought that he would fit better for our needs.


Ah ok i thought you meant right now.

I usually prefer the drafting team to go with the best player available, because our needs can change real fast.

Giroux was such an intriguing player. Ignored by OHL team at 16 then dominating in the Q... I think if Philly, who have a very influencial Q scout, would not have taken the chance on him, he could have fallen quite a lot.

Scouting is not, even for a perfect scout, an exact science. Some players simply stop progressing physically at 17. Other keep growing up until 20. There is no sure ways to predict that.


What frustrate me about people here and in the medias, is that they wait 4-5 years after a draft to have an opinion. I was mad when the Habs drafted Jason Ward, because i felt that they should have gone with a more talented Euro.... I was kinda right... but the Euro i wanted was Michael Riesen, not Marian Hossa!!


I still say to people how mad i was when the Habs drafted Price. WHAT A STUPID PICK!! Brule was our chance to finally have a star forward!!! Most goalies start being good when they reach UFA anyway!!


When you remember your own opinions, you are much more tolerant toward others.

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01-27-2012, 12:40 PM
  #81
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meh... I have also said before I am NOT the biggest Timmins supporter (I think he's tremendously overrated) and I also have to point out the BIG point patofQC has made, which no rebuttal has been made...

Not ONE superstar forward in his entire tenure here.

Yes, I DO give him credit for Price, and Subban...

For all of the talk about the high % he has... I'd like to see the #'s as to how many of them are actually impactual forwards/defence.

2001 5/8 made it... 2 impactuals (Komi & Pleks) 3 also rans (thereby ineffective # increasing players in Perezhogin, Jarventie, & Milroy 134 games between the 3 of them)

2002 3/6 made it 1 impactual (Higgins) 2 also rans in Deveaux and Ferland. It should also be noted that Deveaux took a LONG time to do anything... So IMO that cannot be credited to anything at all, other than a guy who made the NHL who HAPPENED to be drafted by us.

2003 6/11 It was a good year. 4 decent players... 2 of them impactual. (Kostitsyn & Halak). 2 serviceable NHL'ers (OByrne, Lapierre). Locke and Flood are not succesful picks (though they increase his %age). Flood, was very much like Deveaux (in tht it took YEARS to get anywhere) and Locke, who did essentially nothing as a Canadien, and is not NHL material.

2004 6/9 another relatively good year. 2 impactual players, in Streit (who I cant say for sure, but is probably more of a credit to the Swiss scout), and Grabovski (and even he needed a TONNE of time in Toronto with a lot of playing time to be considered anything decent. Big note here, is the failure of our top pick, Kyle Chipchura. Emelin took a LONG time to get here... Jury is still out, as he has to put together more than 37 games to be accounted towards any success, and it could even be so long after the fact, that it could be judged as a success, or a failure.

2005 4/7 this is a year he really did earn his rep as a good scout... all 4 are impactual plaayers (Price, Latendresse, Dagostini, and S.Kost).

2006 3/6 ZERO impactual players. Best of the bunch is 4th liner Ryan White.

2007 4/9 McD, Patches, Subban & Weber. (3.5 impactual players -- jury still out on Weber, we'll see LT). Granted we are getting much closer to our date now... But there isn't much hope out of any other guys.

2008 0/5 we're heading in to 4 years past this draft... IMO this was a bad one. Kristo, who hasnt been out of NCAA is the best of the bunch, but still has lots to prove before getting the nod.

2009 1/8 (Leblanc) It is very early... Some promise here, but none (save for hometown Louis) has anything really written in stone.

2010 0/5 But 2 nice pieces in Tinordi & Gallagher. Way to early to say anything definitive here however.

2011 definately too early to say anything... But I do like Beulieu...

So IMO I think we can fairly say that from 2001-2008 can be at least somewhat judged based on the returns. From these drafts 31 / 50 is a GREAT stat (on paper... )

Out of these 50 picks...

There isnt ONE forward that can be deemed a superstar. 14.5 impactual players... and 16 others who got a cup of coffee, and little else...

from 09-11... Only 1 guy has done anything. 4 look like they COULD be impactual... (including the 1 who has plyed in the NHL).

I would consider, a scout with less %, but more home runs. In fact, I'd prefer it. You know how many teams since 2001 have NOT landed a Superstar forward? FOUR NY Rangers, Toronto Maple Leafs, Calgary Flames & Phoenix Coyotes.

Our draft position in these subsequent year EVERY team had their chances and failures...

Out of these guys we have 1 repeat allstar (Price) and 2 other appearances (Streit & Komisarek).

I'd much prefer crappier %age #'s, and more bang when we get it...

It's also importnt to say he absolutely has FAILED to address anything to do with our size issue. We became such a soft team, due to the safeness of Timmin's selections. Not very many guys we drafted can we say are intimidating at all (1 GUY... Komisarek, as a hab... not currently, could be considered intimidating).

So as much as TT has his fans, and as much as it is an unpopular opinion... IM not sold on the guy either. He's got too much sizzle... & no freakin' steak.

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01-27-2012, 12:40 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatnik View Post
Ah ok i thought you meant right now.

I usually prefer the drafting team to go with the best player available, because our needs can change real fast.

Giroux was such an intriguing player. Ignored by OHL team at 16 then dominating in the Q... I think if Philly, who have a very influencial Q scout, would not have taken the chance on him, he could have fallen quite a lot.

Scouting is not, even for a perfect scout, an exact science. Some players simply stop progressing physically at 17. Other keep growing up until 20. There is no sure ways to predict that.


What frustrate me about people here and in the medias, is that they wait 4-5 years after a draft to have an opinion. I was mad when the Habs drafted Jason Ward, because i felt that they should have gone with a more talented Euro.... I was kinda right... but the Euro i wanted was Michael Riesen, not Marian Hossa!!


I still say to people how mad i was when the Habs drafted Price. WHAT A STUPID PICK!! Brule was our chance to finally have a star forward!!! Most goalies start being good when they reach UFA anyway!!


When you remember your own opinions, you are much more tolerant toward others.
Yes, they have one. But they are VERY LUCKY !

Gagné, Giroux and Couturier fell on their lap because the teams drafting before just striked out on them.

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01-27-2012, 12:41 PM
  #83
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01-27-2012, 12:46 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Yeah, perhaps I underrate US High School competition but while it's important to scout I don't think it's where to look for your first draft pick. We aren't talking NCAA vs CHL here, the competition is notably less.

I can't think of any high draft pick from recent memory from USHS that has looked good in retrospect. Jake Gardiner might be the first one.
Tom Barrasso Phil Housley

Nelson and Bjugstad just off the top of my head.

Leddy is in the NHL at 20, 2009 pick.
Kreider 2009 pick
you named Jake Gardiner...
McDonagh, Wheeler are two others

I'm sure with a lot of reasearch I could find a pile more.

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01-27-2012, 01:12 PM
  #85
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Overall, Timmins has done well and he is NOT the problem, the problem is the GM's over the past two decades as well as the pro scouting department.

Keep Timmins, yes, but it will ultimately be the new GM's decision.

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01-27-2012, 01:22 PM
  #86
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meh... I have also said before I am NOT the biggest Timmins supporter (I think he's tremendously overrated) and I also have to point out the BIG point patofQC has made, which no rebuttal has been made...

Not ONE superstar forward in his entire tenure here.

Yes, I DO give him credit for Price, and Subban...

For all of the talk about the high % he has... I'd like to see the #'s as to how many of them are actually impactual forwards/defence.

2001 5/8 made it... 2 impactuals (Komi & Pleks) 3 also rans (thereby ineffective # increasing players in Perezhogin, Jarventie, & Milroy 134 games between the 3 of them)

2002 3/6 made it 1 impactual (Higgins) 2 also rans in Deveaux and Ferland. It should also be noted that Deveaux took a LONG time to do anything... So IMO that cannot be credited to anything at all, other than a guy who made the NHL who HAPPENED to be drafted by us.

2003 6/11 It was a good year. 4 decent players... 2 of them impactual. (Kostitsyn & Halak). 2 serviceable NHL'ers (OByrne, Lapierre). Locke and Flood are not succesful picks (though they increase his %age). Flood, was very much like Deveaux (in tht it took YEARS to get anywhere) and Locke, who did essentially nothing as a Canadien, and is not NHL material.

2004 6/9 another relatively good year. 2 impactual players, in Streit (who I cant say for sure, but is probably more of a credit to the Swiss scout), and Grabovski (and even he needed a TONNE of time in Toronto with a lot of playing time to be considered anything decent. Big note here, is the failure of our top pick, Kyle Chipchura. Emelin took a LONG time to get here... Jury is still out, as he has to put together more than 37 games to be accounted towards any success, and it could even be so long after the fact, that it could be judged as a success, or a failure.

2005 4/7 this is a year he really did earn his rep as a good scout... all 4 are impactual plaayers (Price, Latendresse, Dagostini, and S.Kost).

2006 3/6 ZERO impactual players. Best of the bunch is 4th liner Ryan White.

2007 4/9 McD, Patches, Subban & Weber. (3.5 impactual players -- jury still out on Weber, we'll see LT). Granted we are getting much closer to our date now... But there isn't much hope out of any other guys.

2008 0/5 we're heading in to 4 years past this draft... IMO this was a bad one. Kristo, who hasnt been out of NCAA is the best of the bunch, but still has lots to prove before getting the nod.

2009 1/8 (Leblanc) It is very early... Some promise here, but none (save for hometown Louis) has anything really written in stone.

2010 0/5 But 2 nice pieces in Tinordi & Gallagher. Way to early to say anything definitive here however.

2011 definately too early to say anything... But I do like Beulieu...

So IMO I think we can fairly say that from 2001-2008 can be at least somewhat judged based on the returns. From these drafts 31 / 50 is a GREAT stat (on paper... )

Out of these 50 picks...

There isnt ONE forward that can be deemed a superstar. 14.5 impactual players... and 16 others who got a cup of coffee, and little else...

from 09-11... Only 1 guy has done anything. 4 look like they COULD be impactual... (including the 1 who has plyed in the NHL).

I would consider, a scout with less %, but more home runs. In fact, I'd prefer it. You know how many teams since 2001 have NOT landed a Superstar forward? FOUR NY Rangers, Toronto Maple Leafs, Calgary Flames & Phoenix Coyotes.

Our draft position in these subsequent year EVERY team had their chances and failures...

Out of these guys we have 1 repeat allstar (Price) and 2 other appearances (Streit & Komisarek).

I'd much prefer crappier %age #'s, and more bang when we get it...

It's also importnt to say he absolutely has FAILED to address anything to do with our size issue. We became such a soft team, due to the safeness of Timmin's selections. Not very many guys we drafted can we say are intimidating at all (1 GUY... Komisarek, as a hab... not currently, could be considered intimidating).

So as much as TT has his fans, and as much as it is an unpopular opinion... IM not sold on the guy either. He's got too much sizzle... & no freakin' steak.
Whats your definition of star player? star player outside top 10 pick is usually rare as is, and considering we picked, 3 times in the top 10 with timmins we got Price(5th), Ak(10th), and Komi(7th).
here is the round 1 picks
http://www.nhl.com/ice/draftsearch.h...ition=&round=1

2001
No star player picked in round 1 after pick #6, mikko koivu. we picked at #7 Fail by timmins? nope.
2002
picked higgins at 14th, no star players after, except for Ward at #25
2003
picked AK at #10, Most star players after top 10 in any draft, stars in Perry, Getzlaf, Parise , Kesler and Richards. Carter to list too.
Montreal fail, but so did many other teams.
2004
picked Chipchura at #18, missed out on Mike Green and Zajac? i would consider only mike green as "star" player.
2005
Picked Price at #5, we got a star player
2006
Pciked Fischer #20 , missed out on Giroux.
2007 Picked Mcdonough at 12 and Patches at 22. No stars after Mcdonough. and Perron is not > Patches.
2008
No Pick
2009
Picked Leblanc, no body worth star status after him, not yet at least
I'll leave '10 '11, since its to early.

8 stars (10 if you count Carter and Zajac as stars) picked after our draft picks until 2009, where 5 (6 if you count Carter) belong to 2003 draft.

So, how exactly is he doing a bad job, considering majority of the star players are picked in top 10? I could build a probability case based on results, to give fair probability to pick a star player given our positions in the drafts, but i don't really need to because just by glancing over, the % would be inferior to 10%, probably around 1%. Which is negligible.
In conclusion, we miss-drafted in 03, and missed out on Green and Giroux. That's only 'faults' i see, and with hindsight, Giroux was "luck" so to speak.
Considering the number of players Habs drafted, and are playing prominent roles in the NHL today, i think it's hard to criticize what timmins has done, with the relatively low picks we had and low amount of star players that appear after our picks.


Last edited by uiCk: 01-27-2012 at 01:36 PM.
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01-27-2012, 01:36 PM
  #87
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meh... I have also said before I am NOT the biggest Timmins supporter (I think he's tremendously overrated) and I also have to point out the BIG point patofQC has made, which no rebuttal has been made...

Not ONE superstar forward in his entire tenure here.

Yes, I DO give him credit for Price, and Subban...

For all of the talk about the high % he has... I'd like to see the #'s as to how many of them are actually impactual forwards/defence.

2001 5/8 made it... 2 impactuals (Komi & Pleks) 3 also rans (thereby ineffective # increasing players in Perezhogin, Jarventie, & Milroy 134 games between the 3 of them)

2002 3/6 made it 1 impactual (Higgins) 2 also rans in Deveaux and Ferland. It should also be noted that Deveaux took a LONG time to do anything... So IMO that cannot be credited to anything at all, other than a guy who made the NHL who HAPPENED to be drafted by us.

2003 6/11 It was a good year. 4 decent players... 2 of them impactual. (Kostitsyn & Halak). 2 serviceable NHL'ers (OByrne, Lapierre). Locke and Flood are not succesful picks (though they increase his %age). Flood, was very much like Deveaux (in tht it took YEARS to get anywhere) and Locke, who did essentially nothing as a Canadien, and is not NHL material.

2004 6/9 another relatively good year. 2 impactual players, in Streit (who I cant say for sure, but is probably more of a credit to the Swiss scout), and Grabovski (and even he needed a TONNE of time in Toronto with a lot of playing time to be considered anything decent. Big note here, is the failure of our top pick, Kyle Chipchura. Emelin took a LONG time to get here... Jury is still out, as he has to put together more than 37 games to be accounted towards any success, and it could even be so long after the fact, that it could be judged as a success, or a failure.

2005 4/7 this is a year he really did earn his rep as a good scout... all 4 are impactual plaayers (Price, Latendresse, Dagostini, and S.Kost).

2006 3/6 ZERO impactual players. Best of the bunch is 4th liner Ryan White.

2007 4/9 McD, Patches, Subban & Weber. (3.5 impactual players -- jury still out on Weber, we'll see LT). Granted we are getting much closer to our date now... But there isn't much hope out of any other guys.

2008 0/5 we're heading in to 4 years past this draft... IMO this was a bad one. Kristo, who hasnt been out of NCAA is the best of the bunch, but still has lots to prove before getting the nod.

2009 1/8 (Leblanc) It is very early... Some promise here, but none (save for hometown Louis) has anything really written in stone.

2010 0/5 But 2 nice pieces in Tinordi & Gallagher. Way to early to say anything definitive here however.

2011 definately too early to say anything... But I do like Beulieu...

So IMO I think we can fairly say that from 2001-2008 can be at least somewhat judged based on the returns. From these drafts 31 / 50 is a GREAT stat (on paper... )

Out of these 50 picks...

There isnt ONE forward that can be deemed a superstar. 14.5 impactual players... and 16 others who got a cup of coffee, and little else...

from 09-11... Only 1 guy has done anything. 4 look like they COULD be impactual... (including the 1 who has plyed in the NHL).

I would consider, a scout with less %, but more home runs. In fact, I'd prefer it. You know how many teams since 2001 have NOT landed a Superstar forward? FOUR NY Rangers, Toronto Maple Leafs, Calgary Flames & Phoenix Coyotes.

Our draft position in these subsequent year EVERY team had their chances and failures...

Out of these guys we have 1 repeat allstar (Price) and 2 other appearances (Streit & Komisarek).

I'd much prefer crappier %age #'s, and more bang when we get it...

It's also importnt to say he absolutely has FAILED to address anything to do with our size issue. We became such a soft team, due to the safeness of Timmin's selections. Not very many guys we drafted can we say are intimidating at all (1 GUY... Komisarek, as a hab... not currently, could be considered intimidating).

So as much as TT has his fans, and as much as it is an unpopular opinion... IM not sold on the guy either. He's got too much sizzle... & no freakin' steak.
Timmins started in 2003 I believe, not 2001. And if you do count 2001 onwards, I get the feeling Plekanec is as good as a lot of the guys you are calling a superstar

Outside of the flukeishly great 2003 year how many star forwards that they could have drafted did they actually miss though?

1st line forwards missed
2004: Krecji, Franzen. Drafted Grabrovski so that's pretty much a wash.
2005: Kopitar, Stasny. Instead picked franchise goaltender, Latendresse in 2nd round. Did pretty good.
2006: Giroux. Lucic
2007: Perron, Benn. Picked McDonagh, Pacioretty and Subban.
2008: None
2009: None

If you want to include the other 2 years.

2001: Missed Hemsky, Roy and Cammalleri but drafted equally good or better Plekanec
2002: Missed no one. No top line forwards drafted after Higgins.

Absent one year, they've either picked up almost equivalent talent or didn't have the opportunity to pick the good forwards except for Giroux in 06.

So what it seems you're really blaming him about is almost never picking high. Which can't be his fault. Its a result of a team that's never sunk to the bottom like others have.

Other teams I'd say that haven't drafted a significantly better forward than Plekanec

Minnesota: Koivu is their best
Nashville: Radulov hasn't really proven to be an NHL superstar.
Sharks: Lots of good forwards but no superstars. Unless you count Couture, which is pretty tenuous.
Florida: Who are you counting? Horton? Weiss? Booth?
St. Louis: Unless you count Backes, who might have some claim to it.
Detroit: Are you counting Franzen? Another borderline case.


Last edited by Talks to Goalposts: 01-27-2012 at 01:55 PM.
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Old
01-27-2012, 02:14 PM
  #88
montreal
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Fischer's never gonna see an NHL rink. He was on the no draft list of other teams because of his attitude. We end up with nothing. That one hurts... But every single NHL scouting departments will make catastrophic mistakes... Timmins has limited them.
I bet he does at some point. Last I heard he was called up to the AHL recently and was among the league leaders in scoring for defensemen in the ECHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Yeah, perhaps I underrate US High School competition but while it's important to scout I don't think it's where to look for your first draft pick. We aren't talking NCAA vs CHL here, the competition is notably less.

I can't think of any high draft pick from recent memory from USHS that has looked good in retrospect. Jake Gardiner might be the first one.
You have to give it time though, as the rule for drafting high schoolers just changed in 2005 so i'd give it 10 or so years to evaluate.

TJ Oshie, McDonagh, Matt Niskanen, Taylor Chorney, Jonathan Quick, Keith Yandle, Derek Stepan, Chris Kreider, Nick Bjugstad, Brock Nelson, are a few that were drafted out of the USHS.

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01-27-2012, 02:31 PM
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I bet he does at some point. Last I heard he was called up to the AHL recently and was among the league leaders in scoring for defensemen in the ECHL.



You have to give it time though, as the rule for drafting high schoolers just changed in 2005 so i'd give it 10 or so years to evaluate.

TJ Oshie, McDonagh, Matt Niskanen, Taylor Chorney, Jonathan Quick, Keith Yandle, Derek Stepan, Chris Kreider, Nick Bjugstad, Brock Nelson, are a few that were drafted out of the USHS.
Yeah, forgot to mention that, before 2005 those guys couldn't "opt in" to the draft because they would lose their NCAA eligibility so they went undrafted until 2 years later.

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01-27-2012, 02:45 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
meh... I have also said before I am NOT the biggest Timmins supporter (I think he's tremendously overrated) and I also have to point out the BIG point patofQC has made, which no rebuttal has been made...
Prospects drafted bwteen 2003 and 2007 (Timmins wasn't here before then and it's too early to look at later prospects.):

Halak
Price
McDonagh
Patches
Subban
AK
Emelin
Lapierre
Grabovski
Streit
Lats
O'Byrne
Chipchura
D'agostino
Sergei K
White
Webber

He was also in on the choosing of Bournival & DD.

Now you say you're not a big fan of Timmins' drafting. So tell us which Head scout excites you. Don't throw out teams without posting their picks to prove your point. Aside from Pittsburg - that had 5 top 5 draft picks and even Pittsburgh sucks once you go past their top 5 picks - what other team has drafted better than the Habs?

If it wasn't for Timmins this team would be a laughing stock. The problem with this team was/is Gainey's & Gauthier's dumbass idea to go small & fast. If they had really gone fast the team wouldn't look half as bad as they do. But the team was just small and not all that fast. Timmins helped those two bungling idiots to look better than they really are.


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01-27-2012, 03:51 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Funny how when you have a different view here some people become agressive and start the personal attack... I like RT expression for you guys... TaliFan...
I respect your right to an opinion, but is there anything you're happy about? An opinion should at least be somewhat informed about what they are speaking. I don't have anything against you personally or anything like that, but your opinions are the same on everything, everything is terrible. We are not the best managed team in the league, not by a long shot, I think we're closer to the bottom of the league than we are to the top, we have some things that give us an advantage over other clubs like spending to the cap ect, yet we remain middle of the pack, but that shouldn't prevent us for giving credit to an area where we've been pretty good.

I thought we could all agree that considering we typically draft anywhere from 10-20 every year Timmins does pretty good. We have no superstar forward, or even a star forward, but it's no easy task where we usually draft from and much of it is luck.

The problem is the young players drafted by Timmins, most likely because he sees something that he likes about them are often times labeled cancers or unworkable when really they are kids who need a little patience. We've giving other teams as many of our drafted players for nothing as we have kept for ourselves. It's ridiculous. Not just lately, but this has been going on for some time. I wish the GM would consult Timmins on these players before shipping them out to be successful on other teams. w\e haven't given any real stars away, but we have given great depth players and replaced them with overpaid UFA's who many times aren't as good.

Ryan McDonagh
Mikhail Grabovsky
Sergei Kostitsyn
Guilluame Latendresse
Matt D'agostini
Maxime Lapierre
Chris Higgins
Mike Ribeiro
Ryan O'Byrne (not so much)


The list goes on and on. No Superstars, but a healthy cast of mostly cost controlled contributors who would be welcomed additions to our team and many of them would be considered upgrades to what we already have, all for what amounts to a little more than a ham sandwich. A successful organization can not be a grave yard for young hockey players. Everyone of them was some sort of cancerous headcase, except McDonaugh, he was just a bust, lol.

This is a systemic problem with this organization that has been ongoing for years, not just under Gauthier/Gainey/Timmins either.

Timmins is the one gold fish in a sea of ****.


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01-27-2012, 04:09 PM
  #92
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Whats your definition of star player? star player outside top 10 pick is usually rare as is, and considering we picked, 3 times in the top 10 with timmins we got Price(5th), Ak(10th), and Komi(7th).
here is the round 1 picks
http://www.nhl.com/ice/draftsearch.h...ition=&round=1

2001
No star player picked in round 1 after pick #6, mikko koivu. we picked at #7 Fail by timmins? nope.
2002
picked higgins at 14th, no star players after, except for Ward at #25
2003
picked AK at #10, Most star players after top 10 in any draft, stars in Perry, Getzlaf, Parise , Kesler and Richards. Carter to list too.
Montreal fail, but so did many other teams.
2004
picked Chipchura at #18, missed out on Mike Green and Zajac? i would consider only mike green as "star" player.
2005
Picked Price at #5, we got a star player
2006
Pciked Fischer #20 , missed out on Giroux.
2007 Picked Mcdonough at 12 and Patches at 22. No stars after Mcdonough. and Perron is not > Patches.
2008
No Pick
2009
Picked Leblanc, no body worth star status after him, not yet at least
I'll leave '10 '11, since its to early.

8 stars (10 if you count Carter and Zajac as stars) picked after our draft picks until 2009, where 5 (6 if you count Carter) belong to 2003 draft.

So, how exactly is he doing a bad job, considering majority of the star players are picked in top 10? I could build a probability case based on results, to give fair probability to pick a star player given our positions in the drafts, but i don't really need to because just by glancing over, the % would be inferior to 10%, probably around 1%. Which is negligible.
In conclusion, we miss-drafted in 03, and missed out on Green and Giroux. That's only 'faults' i see, and with hindsight, Giroux was "luck" so to speak.
Considering the number of players Habs drafted, and are playing prominent roles in the NHL today, i think it's hard to criticize what timmins has done, with the relatively low picks we had and low amount of star players that appear after our picks.
A Superstar player... is someone who has performed at an admirable level, enough to warrant recognition by his peers. I did not say he didnt get a star player or 2. The superstars he drafted... Price (3 Allstar appearances) Komi (1 Allstar appearance, and it is debateable due to the fact that almost everyone disagreed that he should have even of been there) & Streit (1 Allstar appearance)

1 Goalie, 2 defencemen.

I have defined the other 11.5 picks as Impactual players... Not necessarily stars, but solid, serviceable NHL hockey players. That 14.5/50 is not as pretty a number as the 31/50 who tasted the NHL (no matter how relatively small their careers were (i.e. Duncan Milroy and his 5 games, or Martti Jarventie and his 1 game). He's heralded as finding all these guys who have contributed... But how many with some significance?
29% over 11 years... 9 of them really counting. (as I also said the 09-11 years are too early to say anything deep about.

Your bolded comment is the fallacy that I am talking about that makes Timmins overrated.
But 14.5 players with significant NHL careers in that timeframe is nothing to write home about. as the other 16.5 are NOT playing significant roles in the NHL. I DONT consider 4th liners to be impactual.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Timmins started in 2003 I believe, not 2001. And if you do count 2001 onwards, I get the feeling Plekanec is as good as a lot of the guys you are calling a superstar

Outside of the flukeishly great 2003 year how many star forwards that they could have drafted did they actually miss though?

1st line forwards missed
2004: Krecji, Franzen. Drafted Grabrovski so that's pretty much a wash.
2005: Kopitar, Stasny. Instead picked franchise goaltender, Latendresse in 2nd round. Did pretty good.
2006: Giroux. Lucic
2007: Perron, Benn. Picked McDonagh, Pacioretty and Subban.
2008: None
2009: None

If you want to include the other 2 years.

2001: Missed Hemsky, Roy and Cammalleri but drafted equally good or better Plekanec
2002: Missed no one. No top line forwards drafted after Higgins.

Absent one year, they've either picked up almost equivalent talent or didn't have the opportunity to pick the good forwards except for Giroux in 06.

So what it seems you're really blaming him about is almost never picking high. Which can't be his fault. Its a result of a team that's never sunk to the bottom like others have.

Other teams I'd say that haven't drafted a significantly better forward than Plekanec

Minnesota: Koivu is their best
Nashville: Radulov hasn't really proven to be an NHL superstar.
Sharks: Lots of good forwards but no superstars. Unless you count Couture, which is pretty tenuous.
Florida: Who are you counting? Horton? Weiss? Booth?
St. Louis: Unless you count Backes, who might have some claim to it.
Detroit: Are you counting Franzen? Another borderline case.
I havent said he did a horrific job... I said his record is much lower than what people praise him for (like he's a be all end all).

I said, I am not the biggest supporter of him maintaining a position here. I still maintain he is overrated, due to the #'s looking so good in re: to how many of his picks MADE the NHL. yet, what isnt mentioned in relation to this number is that 1/2 of those guys are not anything more than guys who had a relative taste as an NHL'er or play very minor roles (#6 d, or 4th liner/spare).

Here's the breakdown:

Superstar Players (3):
Komisarek 7th overall (all star '09)
Price 5th overall (all star '09 '11 '12)
Streit (all star '09)

2 top 10 picks, and a homerum 9th rounder from 01-08.

Impactual Players (11.5):
Plekanec (top 6 center) (3rd rd)
Higgins 14th (top 9 winger)(1st rd, 14th)
Kostitsyn 10th (top 6/9 winger) (1st rd 10th)
Halak (starting goalie) (9th rd)
Grabovski (top 6 center) (5th rd)
Latendresse (top 9 winger) (2nd rd)
S.Kostitsyn (top 6 winger) (7th rd)
D'agostini (top 9 winger) (6th rd)
Pacioretty (1st rd, 22nd overall) (top 6 winger)
Subban (top 2/4 d-man) (2nd rd)
McDonough 12th overall (top 4 d-man) (1st rd 12th overall)
Weber (the 0.5, because to date, he hasnt solidified anything yet) (currently 6/sp d.)
(3rd rd)

That's 3 1sts, 2 2nds, 2 3rds, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, and 1 9th

relatively Minor significant players (15.5):
Perezhogin 1st rd, 25th overall (top 9 winger, went home after 2 yrs never came back)
Milroy (5 nhl games) (2nd)
Jarventie (1 nhl game) (4th)
Deveaux (37 nhl games after going unsigned, and touring the AHL) (6th)
Ferland (1 nhl game) (7th)
Lapierre (4th line c) (2nd)
O'Byrne (5/6 d) (3rd)
Flood (spare d. went unsigned, and toiled in the AHL for years) (6th)
Chipchura 18th overall (4th line c) (1st rd)
Emelin (love him... but he's only 37 games in, 7 yrs after his draft... summer will decide IMO) (3rd rd)
Wyman (starting to cut in as a 4th liner in TB after years in Hamilton) (4th)
Stewart (26 games) (8th)
Maxwell (43 games) (2nd)
White (4th liner, 43 games in) (3rd)
Carle (3 nhl games) (2nd)
Weber (the other 0.5) (potentially could be more... but needs to establish more at this point) (3rd)

2 X 1st rd 4 X 2nd rd 4 X 3rd rd 2 X 4th rd 2 X6th rd 1 X 7th rd 1 X8th rd



Never did anything (30):
Himelfarb 6th
Uijick 7th
Archer 9th
Linhart 2nd
Korneyev 9th
Lambert 4th
Urquhart 2nd
Stewart 4th
Heino-Lindberg 5th
Korpikari 7th
Bonneau 8th
Lacasse 6th
Gleed 7th
Dulac-Lemelin 9th rd
Mikus 4th
Aubin 5th
Paquet 7th rd
Fischer 1st Rd 20th overall
Valentenko 5th
Cepek 7th
Fortier 3rd
Stejskal 5th
Conboy 5th
Torp 6th rd
Kishel (7th rd)
Kristo (2nd rd)
Quailler (3rd rd)
Missaien (4th rd)
Trunev (5th rd)
Johnson (7th rd)

That's 3 3rds, 2 2nd's and a colossal 1st that amounted to absolutely NOTHING. add to that 4 4th's and 5 5th rounders... bear in mind, that's ONLY from 00-08.

It has very little to do with draft position... 14.5 is NOT a high number... All I did to get that number is take away the guys who have not made an impact in the nhl, in regards to becoming something MORE than a 4th liner, or a 6th d. I wouldnt classify, for example, a Radulov, simply because he didnt make an all-star team, or a trophy.. as an exceptional player... he could be considered impactual, due to the fact that he IS a top 6 player, and still demands enough attention to have teams desire him for them (as is not the case for example, Perezhogin... who went home as a guy having a hard time cracking the top 6, and aside form his one year in russia, has been heard little else from).

From 01-07, we WASTED 3 1st rounders, and 6 2nd rounders...
I simply state his record is much more exaggerated than what people are literally giving him credit for...

Espescially with 2 things (major) to consider...

Not ONE Superstar season from a TT draft pick in Montreal. NOT ONE. Has he made good NHL'ers? sure... Is he a good scout... sure... he isnt bad. After all this time however, with nothing to show for in those 2 respective departments... Makes me think it might be time to give another person a shot.

Size, which has been an issue since his arrival, HAS NEVER been addressed through the draft.


I for one would NOT be upset if a new guy came in with a lower %age, however had more guys making bigger marks (i.e. more hits and misses, but BETTER hits). Outside of Mark Streit... He really hasnt had anyone who really smoked one.. Komi is a top 10 pick, and it's even debateable that he should be on the list. But I left him where he is, DUE to the fact that he IS a former allstar.

I am NOT saying I dont like players on the OTHER lists... (I actually think White is awesome, Pleky too, and actually hope better things for Kristo, Emelin and Chipchura)...

All I am saying is that for a guy who is so renowned for being a drafting genius... He really hasnt hit the mark here as much as people make it out to be.

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01-27-2012, 04:28 PM
  #93
Kimota
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Timmins has done good and bad stuff like most scouts.

If there's a clean up coming, we shouldn't be contemplating dismissing him so quickly but at the same time, some are too quickly using the genius word.

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01-27-2012, 04:31 PM
  #94
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I think most pro scouts are at the mercy of what the GM and the org are looking for. If the guy is interested in some guys and the GM says "we have enough of that" then he has to find other choices on his list.

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01-27-2012, 04:45 PM
  #95
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Timmins as done such a great job at scouting that we are way down in the standings and have no offensive star. This guy is a failure... fire him already.
Go back to Quebec City already. Enough of your faux-Hab rooting when you openly admit you love the Nords.

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01-27-2012, 04:46 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
From 01-07, we WASTED 3 1st rounders, and 6 2nd rounders...
I simply state his record is much more exaggerated than what people are literally giving him credit for...
You know what would help your argument? If you based your opinion on facts. Timmins has been here only since 03. What those figures from 01 have to do with him only you know.

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01-27-2012, 05:01 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
A Superstar player... is someone who has performed at an admirable level, enough to warrant recognition by his peers. I did not say he didnt get a star player or 2. The superstars he drafted... Price (3 Allstar appearances) Komi (1 Allstar appearance, and it is debateable due to the fact that almost everyone disagreed that he should have even of been there) & Streit (1 Allstar appearance)

1 Goalie, 2 defencemen.

I have defined the other 11.5 picks as Impactual players... Not necessarily stars, but solid, serviceable NHL hockey players. That 14.5/50 is not as pretty a number as the 31/50 who tasted the NHL (no matter how relatively small their careers were (i.e. Duncan Milroy and his 5 games, or Martti Jarventie and his 1 game). He's heralded as finding all these guys who have contributed... But how many with some significance?
29% over 11 years... 9 of them really counting. (as I also said the 09-11 years are too early to say anything deep about.

Your bolded comment is the fallacy that I am talking about that makes Timmins overrated.
But 14.5 players with significant NHL careers in that timeframe is nothing to write home about. as the other 16.5 are NOT playing significant roles in the NHL. I DONT consider 4th liners to be impactual.




I havent said he did a horrific job... I said his record is much lower than what people praise him for (like he's a be all end all).

I said, I am not the biggest supporter of him maintaining a position here. I still maintain he is overrated, due to the #'s looking so good in re: to how many of his picks MADE the NHL. yet, what isnt mentioned in relation to this number is that 1/2 of those guys are not anything more than guys who had a relative taste as an NHL'er or play very minor roles (#6 d, or 4th liner/spare).

Here's the breakdown:

Superstar Players (3):
Komisarek 7th overall (all star '09)
Price 5th overall (all star '09 '11 '12)
Streit (all star '09)

2 top 10 picks, and a homerum 9th rounder from 01-08.

Impactual Players (11.5):
Plekanec (top 6 center) (3rd rd)
Higgins 14th (top 9 winger)(1st rd, 14th)
Kostitsyn 10th (top 6/9 winger) (1st rd 10th)
Halak (starting goalie) (9th rd)
Grabovski (top 6 center) (5th rd)
Latendresse (top 9 winger) (2nd rd)
S.Kostitsyn (top 6 winger) (7th rd)
D'agostini (top 9 winger) (6th rd)
Pacioretty (1st rd, 22nd overall) (top 6 winger)
Subban (top 2/4 d-man) (2nd rd)
McDonough 12th overall (top 4 d-man) (1st rd 12th overall)
Weber (the 0.5, because to date, he hasnt solidified anything yet) (currently 6/sp d.)
(3rd rd)

That's 3 1sts, 2 2nds, 2 3rds, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, and 1 9th

relatively Minor significant players (15.5):
Perezhogin 1st rd, 25th overall (top 9 winger, went home after 2 yrs never came back)
Milroy (5 nhl games) (2nd)
Jarventie (1 nhl game) (4th)
Deveaux (37 nhl games after going unsigned, and touring the AHL) (6th)
Ferland (1 nhl game) (7th)
Lapierre (4th line c) (2nd)
O'Byrne (5/6 d) (3rd)
Flood (spare d. went unsigned, and toiled in the AHL for years) (6th)
Chipchura 18th overall (4th line c) (1st rd)
Emelin (love him... but he's only 37 games in, 7 yrs after his draft... summer will decide IMO) (3rd rd)
Wyman (starting to cut in as a 4th liner in TB after years in Hamilton) (4th)
Stewart (26 games) (8th)
Maxwell (43 games) (2nd)
White (4th liner, 43 games in) (3rd)
Carle (3 nhl games) (2nd)
Weber (the other 0.5) (potentially could be more... but needs to establish more at this point) (3rd)

2 X 1st rd 4 X 2nd rd 4 X 3rd rd 2 X 4th rd 2 X6th rd 1 X 7th rd 1 X8th rd



Never did anything (30):
Himelfarb 6th
Uijick 7th
Archer 9th
Linhart 2nd
Korneyev 9th
Lambert 4th
Urquhart 2nd
Stewart 4th
Heino-Lindberg 5th
Korpikari 7th
Bonneau 8th
Lacasse 6th
Gleed 7th
Dulac-Lemelin 9th rd
Mikus 4th
Aubin 5th
Paquet 7th rd
Fischer 1st Rd 20th overall
Valentenko 5th
Cepek 7th
Fortier 3rd
Stejskal 5th
Conboy 5th
Torp 6th rd
Kishel (7th rd)
Kristo (2nd rd)
Quailler (3rd rd)
Missaien (4th rd)
Trunev (5th rd)
Johnson (7th rd)

That's 3 3rds, 2 2nd's and a colossal 1st that amounted to absolutely NOTHING. add to that 4 4th's and 5 5th rounders... bear in mind, that's ONLY from 00-08.

It has very little to do with draft position... 14.5 is NOT a high number... All I did to get that number is take away the guys who have not made an impact in the nhl, in regards to becoming something MORE than a 4th liner, or a 6th d. I wouldnt classify, for example, a Radulov, simply because he didnt make an all-star team, or a trophy.. as an exceptional player... he could be considered impactual, due to the fact that he IS a top 6 player, and still demands enough attention to have teams desire him for them (as is not the case for example, Perezhogin... who went home as a guy having a hard time cracking the top 6, and aside form his one year in russia, has been heard little else from).

From 01-07, we WASTED 3 1st rounders, and 6 2nd rounders...
I simply state his record is much more exaggerated than what people are literally giving him credit for...

Espescially with 2 things (major) to consider...

Not ONE Superstar season from a TT draft pick in Montreal. NOT ONE. Has he made good NHL'ers? sure... Is he a good scout... sure... he isnt bad. After all this time however, with nothing to show for in those 2 respective departments... Makes me think it might be time to give another person a shot.

Size, which has been an issue since his arrival, HAS NEVER been addressed through the draft.


I for one would NOT be upset if a new guy came in with a lower %age, however had more guys making bigger marks (i.e. more hits and misses, but BETTER hits). Outside of Mark Streit... He really hasnt had anyone who really smoked one.. Komi is a top 10 pick, and it's even debateable that he should be on the list. But I left him where he is, DUE to the fact that he IS a former allstar.

I am NOT saying I dont like players on the OTHER lists... (I actually think White is awesome, Pleky too, and actually hope better things for Kristo, Emelin and Chipchura)...

All I am saying is that for a guy who is so renowned for being a drafting genius... He really hasnt hit the mark here as much as people make it out to be.
Problem is that your comparing him to whatever imaginary ideal you have in your head instead of what the Habs drafting should be compared against, the drafts of other NHL teams. Not many teams get better value for their picks then Montreal does.

I'm pretty sure the scout that could have satisfied your standards for the picks Montreal had doesn't exist in the real world.

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01-27-2012, 05:01 PM
  #98
Marchy79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Prospects drafted bwteen 2003 and 2007 (Timmins wasn't here before then and it's too early to look at later prospects.):

Halak
Price
McDonagh
Patches
Subban
AK
Emelin
Lapierre
Grabovski
Streit
Lats
O'Byrne
Chipchura
D'agostino
Sergei K
White
Webber

He was also in on the choosing of Bournival & DD.

Now you say you're not a big fan of Timmins' drafting. So tell us which Head scout excites you. Don't throw out teams without posting their picks to prove your point. Aside from Pittsburg - that had 5 top 5 draft picks and even Pittsburgh sucks once you go past their top 5 picks - what other team has drafted better than the Habs?

If it wasn't for Timmins this team would be a laughing stock. The problem with this team was/is Gainey's & Gauthier's dumbass idea to go small & fast. If they had really gone fast the team wouldn't look half as bad as they do. But the team was just small and not all that fast. Timmins helped those two bungling idiots to look better than they really are.
I personally have not a worry of who would be his replacement. It's not as if I have a choice in the matter... All I am saying is I wouldnt cry about it if he was out of the organization, if they wanted to try a new approach. I dont think he is the MOST efficient Scout out there, & I like to think that there are other guys, who just may have a fresh outlook, that can add a different form of depth to the organization.

Knocking out 01-02... Also takes out a superstar, 2 impactual players, 4 guys with a cup of coffee, and 6 nothings...

That's 12 picks...

Making the Numbers,

2 Superstars
9.5 Impact players
11.5 Cup of Coffee guys
and 24 nothings...

out of 46. More than 1/2 of the picks resulted in absolutely NOTHING. Factor in the 11.5 cup of coffee guys... that's 35.5/48 or 74% that resulted to very little to nothing. 26 % have done ok... But out of them all, 1 Superstar goalie, and 1 homerun 9th round d-man.. .Is all we have to show for it.

You bash Gainey and Gauthier... First off, Only ONE pick has been fruitful for ANYTHING to do with Gauthier during his tenure here (Leblanc)... And the big issue in the '08 Summer that culminated in the McDonough trade was the fact tht Gainey, who was patient in acquiring a good many picks for TT's scouting crew... Was watching very little in return for his faith... In fact, he saw a colossal blunder in Fischer right before the McD selection. He didnt want to be stuck in that problem again...

I also included '08... Because 20 teams have players that have done SOMETHING from the 3rd round down... (Im not even including the first 2 rounds, as Kristo was a 2nd). We have NOTHING to show for that entire draft, & furthermore, out of those 5 picks... only Kristo and Quailor stand any realistic chance of changing their fates...
Trunev is more than unikely to come over, and puts less than impressive #'s up in the KHL. Missaien and Johnson are released.

His system seems to really stay close to the 'safe' pick. Guys who have strong skills, and have strong bumps in their stats (historically) leading in to the draft year. Like I state... This leaves a lot of mess on our board... But not much in terms of quality in rounds where it isnt expected.

MANY teams can draft a guy who makes it from the 2nd round down... Heck, there are plenty of guys who can be classified in my superstar category drafted past the first round...
In 2005 alone...
Quick to LA
Letang to Pitts
Statsny to Colorado
Neal to Dallas
2004
Bolland to Chi
Franzen to Det
Rinne NSH
(& we got one in Streit)
or 2003,
Eriksson to Dallas
Bergeron to Bos
Carle to SJ
Weber to NSH
Howard to Det
Pavelski SJ
Byfuglien Chi
Elliott Ott

That is 16 classified as superstar, drafted out of the first round (one is ours) in 3 years.

NOT ONE of these guys are 1st rounders. They are ALL players who have been recognized by the NHL as trophy winners or allstars...

Timmins got us TWO guys who can be on the same list as these guys... in the 7 years he has been here.

Chicago, Nashville, SJ, & Detroit MATCHED the amount of special players Timmins has brought us, in this 3 year window...

Im not even needing to include 'first rounders' of the Pittsburgh's to show a better drafting record. Bottom line... these teams get it... they take more risks, and got more quality to show for it.
Is there teams that have fared worse? sure there is.. Im not saying there isnt... All I am saying is that TT's record is not as golden as people are making it out to be.

To add to my point... of the 11.5 cup of coffee guys... 5 of them played EXCLUSIVELY for Montreal. They never did crack it any where else. Flood, was never signed, and would have been considered a bust for years... Yet, he's a TT pick. It would be fair to say his chances came from his own fortitude, and not much of what TT saw. Flood had to work for YEARS to make it anywhere.

& Lets add to this... Fischer.. the collassal blunder selection he was.. was on most teams DND list, due to being a horrible interview... I guess TT missed the boat... He saw something that no one else did, and was very wrong for it.

To put it VERY bluntly. that could be close to enough right there... Espescially when you add the underwhelming Chipchura pick, and the 4 blown 2nds over the years... Yeah, I could easily accepth the Canadiens trying a different approach on the draft.

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01-27-2012, 05:10 PM
  #99
onice
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
I dont think he is the MOST efficient Scout out there, & I like to think that there are other guys, who just may have a fresh outlook, that can add a different form of depth to the organization.
Again, YOU say he hasn't been efficient, based on what? Have you compared his record with other head scouts and done a comparison and see what is possible and what isn't possible? From your previous response I know the answer to that question. You haven't.

I challenge you to find one team - that is not Pittsburgh -that has a better record than Timmins from 03 till 07. If you can do that then we'll take it from there; otherwise you're just blowing off steam.

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Old
01-27-2012, 05:10 PM
  #100
larek
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
Well Perron (injury aside) is an awesome pick, but yea we all knows Timmins and his scouts are what kept this team from being bottom every year.
LOL- ya right- when and if change comes i dont see why timmins would escape it- he might he might not- i know if i was in charge id pick the people I WANT

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