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ATD championship retrospective

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Old
07-25-2009, 01:30 PM
  #1
Sturminator
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ATD championship retrospective

MOD: Here is the link for the MLD championship retrospective: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=811894. This thread is about the ATD championship.

Here are the ATD champions in the playoff era:

ATD#6 champions, Montreal Canadiens (*note: 20 team draft*):

GM: Hockey Outsider

Coach: Tommy Ivan

Paul Kariya - Adam Oates - Gordie Howe
Johnny Bucyk - Doug Gilmour - Peter Bondra
Dean Prentice - Hooley Smith - Bobby Rousseau
Ryan Smyth - Doug Risebrough - Stan Smyl
Brad Richards

Sprague Cleghorn - Brad Park
Chris Chelios - Jim Schoenfeld
Stefan Persson - Charlie Huddy
Ted Harris

Johnny Bower
Gump Worsley
Mike Liut

ATD#7 champions, Nanaimo Clippers (*note: 28 team draft*):

GM: pitseleh

Coach: Hap Day

Doug Bentley - Newsy Lalonde - Cyclone Taylor
Roy Conacher - Adam Oates - Odie Cleghorn
Paul Thompson - Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Don Marcotte - Doug Risebrough - Terry O'Reilly
Marian Hossa

Allan Stanley - Earl Seibert
Babe Siebert - Sylvio Mantha
Didier Pitre - Bill Hajt
Ted Harris

Glenn Hall
Normie Smith
Charlie Hodge

ATD#8 champions, Montreal Canadiens (*note: 28 team draft*):

GM: Hockey Outsider

Coach: Al Arbour

Charlie Simmer - Newsy Lalonde - Yvan Cournoyer
Vic Hadfield - Jean Ratelle - Hooley Smith
Don Marcotte - Doug Jarvis - Pit Martin
Marcel Bonin - Troy Murray - Eddie Shack
Pierre Turgeon

Denis Potvin - Harry Howell
Marcel Pronovost - Rob Ramage
Bill Hajt - Bill Barilko
Lloyd Cook

Turk Broda
Roger Crozier
Rollie Melanson

ATD#9 champions, Buffalo Bisons (*note: 32 team draft*):

GM: pappyline

Coach: Dick Irvin
Asst coach & Trainer:Lloyd Percival

Busher Jackson - Stan Mikita(A) - Vaclav Nedomansky
Alex Delvecchio - Tod Sloan - Eddie Litzenberger(C)
Don Marshall - Fleming Mackell - Jerry Toppazzini
Johnny Wilson - Orland Kurtenbach - Murray Balfour
Bill Red Hay

Bill White - Pierre Pilote (A)
Carl Brewer - Neil Colville
Frank Patrick - Doug Barkley
Pat Egan

Chuck Rayner
Gerry McNeil

ATD#10 champions, San Francisco Spiders (*note: 28 team draft*):

GMs: Sturminator / Transplanted Caper

Coach: Cecil Hart

Johnny Bucyk (A) - Joe Sakic (C) - Alexander Maltsev
Frank Foyston - Denis Savard - Ed Litzenberger
Dean Prentice - Don McKenney - Ron Ellis
Bruce Stuart - Jack Adams - Dirk Graham
extras: Fred Stanfield, Vladimir Vikulov

Bill Gadsby - Niklas Lidstrom (A)
Hod Stuart - Cy Wentworth
Phil Russell - Bert Corbeau
extra: Rod Seiling

Grant Fuhr
Dave Kerr

ATD#11 champions, Boston Bruins (*note: 28 team draft*):

GMs: Sturminator / Evil Speaker

Coach: Al Arbour

Alex Delvecchio - Frank Nighbor - Bill Cook (C)
John LeClair - Peter Stastny (A) - Vladimir Martinec
J.P. Parise - Don McKenney - Harry Hyland
Ed Sandford - Dick Irvin Sr. - Jim Pappin
Reggie Fleming - Charlie Burns

Doug Harvey - Hap Day (A)
Jim Neilson - Jan Suchı
Graham Drinkwater - Red Dutton
Gilles Marotte

Grant Fuhr
Dave Kerr

ATD #12 champions, Detroit Falcons (*note: 32 team draft*):

GM: EagleBelfour

Coach: Herb Brooks
Assistant Coach:Father David Bauer

Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt (C) - Bobby Bauer
Roy Conacher - Duke Keats (A) - Harry Hyland
Harry P. Watson - Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Ed Sandford - Buddy O'Connor - Harry Oliver
extras: Reggie Fleming, Wally Hergesheimer

Bill Quackenbush - Jimmy Thomson (A)
Lionel Conacher (A) - Cyclone Wentworth
Art Duncan - Bucko McDonald

Terry Sawchuk
Mike Karakas

ATD 2010 champions, New Jersey Swamp Devils (*note: 30-team draft*):

GM: TheDevilMadeMe

Coach: Tommy Ivan

Busher Jackson - Sid Abel (C) - Gordie Howe
Keith Tkachuk - Denis Savard - Vladimir Martinec
Don Marshall - Pit Lepine - Dirk Graham (A)
Jiri Holik - Murray Oliver - Wilf Paiement
Ray Getliffe

Börje Salming - Rob Blake
Babe Siebert (A) - Ted Green
Brian Engblom - Albert Leduc
Yuri Liapkin, Marty McSorley

Charlie Gardiner
Charlie Hodge

ATD 2011 champions, Regina Pats (*note: 40-team draft):

GM: seventieslord
Coach: Fred Shero

Johnny Bucyk - Mark Messier (C) - Teemu Selanne
Jack Adams - Pierre Turgeon - Wayne Cashman (A)
Mel Bridgman - Murray Oliver - Bob Nevin
Dubbie Kerr - Cal Gardner - Al MacAdam
Extras: Bob MacMillan, Andre Boudrais

King Clancy - Hap Day (A)
Jim Neilson (A) - Leo Reise Jr.
Wade Redden - Joe Watson
Bryan MacCabe, Lou Fontinato

Tony Esposito
Roger Crozier

ATD 2012 champions, Inglewood Jacks (*note: 32-team draft):

GM: arrbez
Coach: Cecil Hart

Harry Watson - Wayne Gretzky (C) - Jari Kurri
Baldy Northcott - Pat Lafontaine - Alexander Mogilny
Ross Lonsberry - Rod Brind'Amour (A) - Ron Ellis
Murray Murdoch - Mike Richards - Bernie Nicholls

Brian Leetch - Moose Johnson (A)
George Boucher (A) - Jimmy Watson
Lloyd Cook - Kimmo Timonen

Tiny Thompson
Rogie Vachon

ATD 2013 champions, Montreal Canadiens (*note: 32-team draft):

GMs: Jafar / Sturminator
Coach: Tommy Gorman

Busher Jackson - Frank Boucher - Boris Mikhailov (K)
Sergei Kapustin - Jeremy Roenick - Helmut Balderis
Shane Doan - Don Luce - Tony Amonte
Joe Klukay - Troy Murray - Mario Tremblay
Patrik Sundstrom, Jason Spezza, Steve Thomas

Raymond Bourque (A) - Art Coulter (A)
Gus Mortson - Jimmy Thomson
Bobby Rowe - Mathieu Schneider
Rick Ley

Georges Vézina
Al Rollins

ATD 2014 champions, New Jersey Swamp Devils (*note: 28-team draft):

GM: The DevilMadeMe

Coach: Tommy Ivan

Toe Blake (A) - Bill Cowley - Bill Cook (C)
Gordon Roberts - Peter Forsberg - Gordon Drillon
Tony Leswick - Patrice Bergeron - Frank Finnigan
Sergei Kapustin - Vladimir Shadrin - Todd Bertuzzi
Ray Getliffe, Ryan Kesler, Alexei Kovalev

Babe Siebert - Red Kelly (A)
Herb Gardiner - Harry Cameron
Ryan Suter - Kevin Hatcher
Ed Van Impe

Grant Fuhr
Chuck Rayner
---------------------------------------------------------------------

*Note: commentary below was written after ATD#11.*

And there are your champions. It is an interesting mix; it's hard to compare the 20 team and 32 team champions to the 28 teamers, but looking at the winners all together gives a flavor for where the ATD has been going at least since the inception of the playoff system. They are a fairly heterogenous group, and when you look at the evolution of the champions no particular philosophy of team-building emerges as the dominant form. There are, however, a few common threads that emerge:

- all of the champions have at least one top-15 defenseman on the roster. The weakest #1s we see among the former champions are Earl Seibert and Pierre Pilote, and every single champion has drafted a defenseman before the end of the 2nd round. Perhaps in the future we will see a team win the ATD without a top defenseman and break the mold the way pappy's Bisons did with Rayner in goal in ATD#9, but for now strength at the top end of the blueline seems to be the most common thread among the champions.

- all of the champions have 3rd lines that can score. None of the victors have pure checking 3rd lines, and the ATD#11 Bruins' 3rd line clearly favors offense over defense. Again, we could see a team break through with a pure checking 3rd line in future drafts, but it hasn't happened yet.

- the coaching is outstanding. Cecil Hart is probably the weakest of the championship coaches, and the rest are really top-notch.

- the parts on the scoringlines fit together. Every scoringline on every champion has at least one legit playmaker, goalscorer and physical presence. None of the championship scoring units are open to easy criticism based on an inability to compete in one or another area of the ice or aspect of the game.

- goaltending is surprisingly average. For all the talk we throw around about goal being the most important position on the ice, only one champion has featured a top-7 goaltender (the Clippers with Hall), and that team likely could have won with a much weaker goalie, such was the strength of the Nanaimo franchise at that time. We have yet to see a top goalie carry his team to a Milt Dunnell Cup.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Three time champs:

Coach:

Tommy Ivan

Forward:

Johnny Bucyk
Bobby Rousseau
Busher Jackson

Defense:

Babe Siebert

Goal:

Grant Fuhr

Two time champs:

Coach:

Al Arbour
Cecil Hart

Forward:

Adam Oates
Dean Prentice
Hooley Smith
Gordie Howe
Doug Risebrough
Newsy Lalonde
Don Marcotte
Vladimir Martinec
Troy Murray
Pierre Turgeon
Don Marshall
Roy Conacher
Phil Goyette
Alex Delvecchio
Ed Litzenberger
Don McKenney
Ron Ellis
Jack Adams
Dirk Graham
Harry Hyland
Ed Sandford
Reggie Fleming
Harry Watson
Murray Oliver
Denis Savard
Bill Cook
Sergei Kapustin
Ray Getliffe

Defense:

Bill Hajt
Ted Harris
Lloyd Cook
Cy Wentworth
Jim Neilson
Jimmy Thomson
Hap Day

Goal:

Charlie Hodge
Dave Kerr
Roger Crozier
Chuck Rayner
---------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: Following analysis done after ATD2013

Conference Finals Data

Early-Round Winning Strategy Data

ATD Diversity Over Time

ATD Eras Over Time


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 06-04-2014 at 12:43 PM. Reason: added 2014
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Old
07-26-2009, 03:27 AM
  #2
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Thanks for putting this together Sturminator, it's fascinating.

I wonder if this retrospective will lead to goaltenders being selected lower next draft...

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07-26-2009, 11:20 PM
  #3
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Prentice, Oates, Smith, Fuhr, Kerr, Marcotte, Risebrough, Lalonde, McKenney, Rousseau, Litzenberger, Harris, Hajt.

I believe those are all the 2-time ATD winners. And there are no 3-timers out there.

I couldn't begin to compare these rosters. We just, as a group, get far better at drafting each time. The stronger picks get taken earlier, and the weaker picks drop to the MLD. So although on the surface, the ATD 7 and 8 champs look like they could compete with the ATD 10 and 11 champs, I would give more credit to the recent champs for constructing these teams against a stronger field.

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07-27-2009, 12:26 AM
  #4
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Prentice, Oates, Smith, Fuhr, Kerr, Marcotte, Risebrough, Lalonde, McKenney, Rousseau, Litzenberger, Harris, Hajt.

I believe those are all the 2-time ATD winners.
Delvecchio as well.

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07-27-2009, 07:54 AM
  #5
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Delvecchio as well.
Also Johnny Bucyk.

Al Arbour has coached two winners, as well.

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02-06-2010, 10:35 PM
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UPDATE:

ATD #12 champions, Detroit Falcons:

Coach: Herb Brooks
Assistant Coach:Father David Bauer

Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt (C) - Bobby Bauer
Roy Conacher - Duke Keats (A) - Harry Hyland
Harry P. Watson - Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Ed Sandford - Buddy O'Connor - Harry Oliver
extras: Reggie Fleming, Wally Hergesheimer

Bill Quackenbush - Jimmy Thomson (A)
Lionel Conacher (A) - Cyclone Wentworth
Art Duncan - Bucko McDonald

Terry Sawchuk
Mike Karakas

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02-06-2010, 11:49 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
UPDATE:

ATD #12 champions, Detroit Falcons:

Coach: Herb Brooks
Assistant Coach:Father David Bauer

Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt (C) - Bobby Bauer
Roy Conacher - Duke Keats (A) - Harry Hyland
Harry P. Watson - Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Ed Sandford - Buddy O'Connor - Harry Oliver
extras: Reggie Fleming, Wally Hergesheimer

Bill Quackenbush - Jimmy Thomson (A)
Lionel Conacher (A) - Cyclone Wentworth
Art Duncan - Bucko McDonald

Terry Sawchuk
Mike Karakas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
- all of the champions have at least one top-15 defenseman on the roster. The weakest #1s we see among the former champions are Earl Seibert and Pierre Pilote, and every single champion has drafted a defenseman before the end of the 2nd round. Perhaps in the future we will see a team win the ATD without a top defenseman and break the mold the way pappy's Bisons did with Rayner in goal in ATD#9, but for now strength at the top end of the blueline seems to be the most common thread among the champions.

- all of the champions have 3rd lines that can score. None of the victors have pure checking 3rd lines, and the ATD#11 Bruins' 3rd line clearly favors offense over defense. Again, we could see a team break through with a pure checking 3rd line in future drafts, but it hasn't happened yet.

- the coaching is outstanding. Cecil Hart is probably the weakest of the championship coaches, and the rest are really top-notch.

- the parts on the scoringlines fit together. Every scoringline on every champion has at least one legit playmaker, goalscorer and physical presence. None of the championship scoring units are open to easy criticism based on an inability to compete in one or another area of the ice or aspect of the game.

- goaltending is surprisingly average. For all the talk we throw around about goal being the most important position on the ice, only one champion has featured a top-7 goaltender (the Clippers with Hall), and that team likely could have won with a much weaker goalie, such was the strength of the Nanaimo franchise at that time. We have yet to see a top goalie carry his team to a Milt Dunnell Cup.
Seems like my team changed a few threads.

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05-21-2010, 12:07 AM
  #8
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UPDATE:

ATD 2010 champions, New Jersey Swamp Devils (*note: 30-team draft):

coach Tommy Ivan

Busher Jackson - Sid Abel (C) - Gordie Howe
Keith Tkachuk - Denis Savard - Vladimir Martinec
Don Marshall - Pit Lepine - Dirk Graham (A)
Jiri Holik - Murray Oliver - Wilf Paiement
Ray Getliffe

Börje Salming - Rob Blake
Babe Siebert (A) - Ted Green
Brian Engblom - Albert Leduc
Yuri Liapkin, Marty McSorley

Charlie Gardiner
Charlie Hodge

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05-21-2010, 12:59 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
UPDATE:

ATD 2010 champions, New Jersey Swamp Devils (*note: 30-team draft):

coach Tommy Ivan

Busher Jackson - Sid Abel (C) - Gordie Howe
Keith Tkachuk - Denis Savard - Vladimir Martinec
Don Marshall - Pit Lepine - Dirk Graham (A)
Jiri Holik - Murray Oliver - Wilf Paiement
Ray Getliffe

Börje Salming - Rob Blake
Babe Siebert (A) - Ted Green
Brian Engblom - Albert Leduc
Yuri Liapkin, Marty McSorley

Charlie Gardiner
Charlie Hodge
-Another team with outstanding coaching and average goaltending. Was EB's championship team just a very well constructed exception to the norm? The Swamp Devils also don't have a Top 15 defenseman, but they still have a "legit #1" who always gets drafted by the end of the second round.

-Tommy Ivan joins Al Arbour as a two-time winner of the Milt Dunnell Cup. Both times, Ivan was teamed with Gordie Howe (the only Top 4 All-Time player with a Milt Dunnell Cup).

-NJ's 3rd line isn't offensively inept, but they are probably the closest thing to a "pure checking line" on any of the champions.

I see two things in common among all the champions:

1) The parts of each scoring line fit together. Every scoring line of every champion has a mix of goal scoring, playmaking, and puck winning.

2) Every championship team looks to have drafted 1 forward and 1 defenseman/goalie with their first 2 picks. This makes sense, as teams need to be able to both score and prevent goals at a high level.

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05-21-2010, 03:24 PM
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I believe these are all the two-time winners of the Milt Dunnell Cup:

Forwards: Johnny Bucyk, Roy Conacher, Alex Delvecchio, Reg Fleming, Dirk Graham, Phil Goyette, Gordie Howe, Harry Hyland, Busher Jackson, Newsy Lalonde, Ed Litzenberger, Don Marcotte, Don Marshall, Vladimir Martinec, Don McKenney, Adam Oates, Dean Prentice, Doug Risebrough, Ed Sandford, Denis Savard, Hooley Smith

Defensemen: Bill Hajt, Ted Harris, Babe Siebert, Cy Wentworth

Goaltenders: Grant Fuhr, Dave Kerr, Charlie Hodge

Coaches = Al Arbour, Tommy Ivan

Bobby Rousseau is still in a class by himself as the only three-time winner of the Milt Dunnell Cup.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-21-2010 at 04:11 PM.
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01-27-2011, 01:03 PM
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Is there not a disproportionate amount of really old player in there?
It really depends on your definition of "old". There have been over 100 years of hockey history, and the best teams are teams that appreciate all era's, so as such there are going to be more "old" than "new" players, because there are more "old" than "new" era's.

If someone had the time, it'd be interesting to break up time periods into era's and then count the number of championship players in each era.

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01-27-2011, 01:15 PM
  #12
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It really depends on your definition of "old". There have been over 100 years of hockey history, and the best teams are teams that appreciate all era's, so as such there are going to be more "old" than "new" players, because there are more "old" than "new" era's.

If someone had the time, it'd be interesting to break up time periods into era's and then count the number of championship players in each era.
that would be such a binary exercise that wouldn't really prove anything. It would be akin to "cup counting" - one team wins, 29 lose. If you make the finals three times, you still lost three times, just like the three-time first round fodder lost three times.

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01-27-2011, 06:17 PM
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-Another team with outstanding coaching and average goaltending. Was EB's championship team just a very well constructed exception to the norm?
What sticks out to me is how his defensemen are put together. They all really fit eachother's styles and while they aren't the most well known guys out there, when you can construct a six man group that work well together...you are going to have success. Add the fact that he had Sawchuk backing them up and a very good group of forwards...and there you have it.

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03-02-2011, 10:32 PM
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It really depends on your definition of "old". There have been over 100 years of hockey history, and the best teams are teams that appreciate all era's, so as such there are going to be more "old" than "new" players, because there are more "old" than "new" era's.
Well look at the ATD #12 champions for example. Nothing against EB's team, Im just using it as an example. They're all from the 1900's-1940's, thats definitely not appreciating all of the era's. It seems like the older the better and that team is a perfect example.

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03-02-2011, 10:35 PM
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Well look at the ATD #12 champions for example. Nothing against EB's team, Im just using it as an example. They're all from the 1900's-1940's, thats definitely not appreciating all of the era's. It seems like the older the better and that team is a perfect example.
There's actually quite a number of later 06ers. 1900-1960 isn't a bad thing to span. You're right, not a lot of modern players, but I don't think we should jump down older or newer slanted teams. We could well see some 1950-2000 teams, and I don't think there'd be too much wrong with that, and I think they have every bit a chance as an older slant.

Besides that, modern players are certainly getting more appreciated now.

And, just passing through, I think the champions generally have a nice array of players of all era's.

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05-30-2011, 10:53 PM
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UPDATE:

ATD 2011 champions, Regina Pats (*note: 40-team draft):

GM: seventieslord
Coach: Fred Shero

Johnny Bucyk - Mark Messier (C) - Teemu Selanne
Jack Adams - Pierre Turgeon - Wayne Cashman (A)
Mel Bridgman - Murray Oliver - Bob Nevin
Dubbie Kerr - Cal Gardner - Al MacAdam
Extras: Bob MacMillan, Andre Boudrais

King Clancy - Hap Day (A)
Jim Neilson (A) - Leo Reise Jr.
Wade Redden - Joe Watson
Bryan MacCabe, Lou Fontinato

Tony Esposito
Roger Crozier

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05-31-2011, 07:07 AM
  #17
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I believe Johnny Bucyk is the only one from this years championship to join the exclusive 3-time champion category.

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05-31-2011, 12:05 PM
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I believe Johnny Bucyk is the only one from this years championship to join the exclusive 3-time champion category.
Day, Neilson, Oliver and Crozier join the list of two-timers as well. I believe that is all. (wow, I COMPLETELY forgot that TDMM had Murray Oliver last draft!)

*which is sort of interesting in that Day, Oliver and Crozier are three of the four picks I made that I became slightly less impressed with after drafting them. It's not that they're bad, but I was disappointed in what I was able to find on Day (I need to go back to the newspapers, I think, but he's so hard to search for), the excitement at Murray Oliver's ES scoring was quickly tempered by the fact that it was very difficult to find anything in print supporting his greatness, and Crozier seemed to be just a Ranford with a 1st AST, or a Giguere with a 1st AST instead of a cup. Could I have done any better with that pick? I don't think I could have, but he didn't quite meet my standard for a backup.

I don't regret those picks (why should I?) but they weren't the "value" that some of my other guys were.

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01-21-2012, 08:45 AM
  #19
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Day, Neilson, Oliver and Crozier join the list of two-timers as well. I believe that is all. (wow, I COMPLETELY forgot that TDMM had Murray Oliver last draft!).
Add Jack Adams to the list. He centered my 4th line in ATD#10.

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01-27-2012, 10:30 AM
  #20
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Here's an interesting game - list of players who have skated for back-to-back championship teams. Here goes:

ATD#6 champion: Adam Oates, Bobby Rousseau, Doug Risebrough and Ted Harris

to

ATD#7 champion: Adam Oates, Bobby Rousseau, Doug Risebrough and Ted Harris
+ Newsy Lalonde, Don Marcotte and Bill Hajt

to

ATD#8 champion: Newsy Lalonde, Don Marcotte and Bill Hajt
+ [Nobody]

to

ATD#9 champion: [Nobody]
+ Ed Litzenberger

to

ATD#10 champion: Ed Litzenberger
+ Don McKenney, Grant Fuhr and Dave Kerr

to

ATD#11 champion: Don McKenney, Grant Fuhr and Dave Kerr
+ Harry Hyland, Ed Sandford and Reggie Fleming

to

ATD#12 champion: Harry Hyland, Ed Sandford and Reggie Fleming
+ [Nobody]

to

ATD 2010 champion: [Nobody]
+ Murray Oliver

to

ATD 2011 champion: Murray Oliver
+ ???????


Last edited by Sturminator: 04-13-2012 at 06:15 AM. Reason: spelled Hyland wrong
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01-27-2012, 10:32 AM
  #21
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No player has skated for three Milt Dunnel Cup champions in a row, which is not surprising. The odds of someone pulling a double with each iteration are not long, given the number of players per team and the size of the league, but the odds of pulling a triple are quite remote. We'll see if Murray Oliver's team this year can pull it off.

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01-27-2012, 11:06 AM
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Hawkman
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All the Champs before #12 are retired and it's not as fun without their posts.

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01-27-2012, 12:31 PM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
No player has skated for three Milt Dunnel Cup champions in a row, which is not surprising. The odds of someone pulling a double with each iteration are not long, given the number of players per team and the size of the league, but the odds of pulling a triple are quite remote. We'll see if Murray Oliver's team this year can pull it off.
Oliver is due for a big jump, it would seem.

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01-27-2012, 12:33 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Oliver is due for a big jump, it would seem.
Eh, I don't think he was exactly the key to either of our teams.

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01-27-2012, 02:01 PM
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Eh, I don't think he was exactly the key to either of our teams.
should have used the sarcasm emoticon...

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