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Brunet Gives Timmins some love (disses french media?)

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Old
01-27-2012, 04:21 PM
  #101
onice
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post

Chicago, Nashville, SJ, & Detroit MATCHED the amount of special players Timmins has brought us, in this 3 year window...
That is BS. Go look at their drafting record. Timmins buries all comers. From 03 to 07:

CHICAGO
Seabrook (14th pick)
Crawford
Byfulien
Barker (3rd pick)
Bolland
Bichell
Brower
Skille
hylmarsoon
Towes (3rd pick)
Kane (1st)

NASHVILLE
Suter (7th)
Klein
Weber
Radulov
Santorelli
Rinne
Franson
O'Reilly
Hornqvist
Spaleng

SAN JOSE
Michalek
Bernier
Carle
Pavelski
Mitchell
Vlasic
McGinn
Couture

DETROIT
Howard
Quincey
Franzen
Abdelkader
Helm
Matthias


Last edited by onice: 01-28-2012 at 11:32 AM.
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01-27-2012, 04:22 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
You know what would help your argument? If you based your opinion on facts. Timmins has been here only since 03. What those figures from 01 have to do with him only you know.
Really? So why does it so happen taking out 01-02 does little to nothing to improve the scenario... In fact, it takes away the best of the Impactual players, in Pleks, and one of his superstar picks I credited him for...

The results remained the same, regardless to the 01-02... In fact, If anything, they probably got even worse than when Andre Savard was at the helm... (Which I was a little fuzzy on... sue me)

3/12 = impactual players drafted in 01-02

11.5/46 = impactual players drafted out of 03-08

Seems pretty much similar to me...

Adding 01-02 to it, only adds to the idea that a fresh approach may be an even better idea than even I previously thought.

I get it guys... Many think TT is a high grade pro scout. That's cool... I just dont happen to hold him to that regard, and CAN understand why some would want him gone. I think he's a smart guy, and classy too... I just think he's had his chance, and there hasnt been much improvement of our chances via the draft.

Do I want him gone? I dont even really think about it very much TBH... All I have said, is that CONSIDERING his drafting record, and how people go on about him.... I dont think he's been the greatest Scout in the NHL, or even very high above average (if at all).
Would I welcome change? sure. We havent won anything in the 9 years he has been here. A new guy just might have a better approach that can land us different guys we need. Im open to the idea.

It's not as if we have been perrenial contenders, or bottom of the barrel... But Gainey was holding prospects/picks for a very long time with little to no payoff during his regime here.. Yet, somehow it's TT's that is the genius, and BG who is the donkey.

Gauthier has nothing to do with it, the picks from his tenure havent done really anything significant.

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01-27-2012, 04:22 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Again, YOU say he hasn't been efficient, based on what? Have you compared his record with other head scouts and done a comparison and see what is possible and what isn't possible? From your previous response I know the answer to that question. You haven't.

I challenge you to find one team - that is not Pittsburgh -that has a better record than Timmins from 03 till 07. If you can do that then we'll take it from there; otherwise you're just blowing off steam.
whats a better record ? some teams have drafted really w ell some teams have drafted ok and some teams havnt drafted very well-
thers been more involved than timmins in the draft process the final word certainly isnt Timm-

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01-27-2012, 04:26 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Yes, they have one. But they are VERY LUCKY !

Gagné, Giroux and Couturier fell on their lap because the teams drafting before just striked out on them.
that happens all the time- thats what teh draft is about- Tiimins has been Ok but really theres more to it than timmins

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01-27-2012, 04:27 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
whats a better record ? some teams have drafted really w ell some teams have drafted ok and some teams havnt drafted very well-
thers been more involved than timmins in the draft process the final word certainly isnt Timm-

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2003e.html

Take 30 minutes and go educate yourself.

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01-27-2012, 04:31 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2003e.html

Take 30 minutes and go educate yourself.
LOL IVE READ ALL THAT BEFORE AND HAVE LOOKED THE DRAFT THROUGH THE MANY YEARS- IONS OF TIMES!! LOL- like i Said Timmins has been ok- a little wimpy in the picks not much toughness -- and a lack of size a bit too much but like i said its not timmins that makes the final decisions and alot of what the scouts look at is what kind of players the GM wants and teh style of team- thats really how it works

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01-27-2012, 04:31 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
MANY teams can draft a guy who makes it from the 2nd round down... Heck, there are plenty of guys who can be classified in my superstar category drafted past the first round...
In 2005 alone...
Quick to LA
Letang to Pitts
Statsny to Colorado
Neal to Dallas
2004
Bolland to Chi
Franzen to Det
Rinne NSH
(& we got one in Streit)
or 2003,
Eriksson to Dallas
Bergeron to Bos
Carle to SJ
Weber to NSH
Howard to Det
Pavelski SJ
Byfuglien Chi
Elliott Ott

That is 16 classified as superstar, drafted out of the first round (one is ours) in 3 years.

NOT ONE of these guys are 1st rounders. They are ALL players who have been recognized by the NHL as trophy winners or allstars...
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
This is BS. Go look at their drafting record. From 03 to 07:

CHICAGO
Seabrook (14th pick)
Crawford
Byfulien
Barker (3rd pick)
Bolland
Bichell
Brower
Skille
hylmarsoon
Towes (3rd pick)
Kane (1st)

NASHVILLE
Suter (7th)
Klein
Weber
Radulov
Santorelli
Rinne
Franson
O'Reilly
Hornqvist
Spaleng
You arent reading my post... Chicago and Nashville HAVE drafted 2 SUPERSTAR players EACH OUTSIDE OF THE FIRST ROUND

BOLLAND CHICAGO 2nd round 32nd overall in 2004
BYFUGLIEN CHICAGO 245th overall in 2003

RINNE NASHVILLE 258th overall in 2004
WEBER NASHVILLE 2nd rd 49th overall in 2003.

That equals the amount of guys that qualified under the same premise UNDER TT. (Streit, & Price) which includes ALL of his picks from 2003-2008.

These 2 teams did this in a period I researched from 03-05.

2 Superstar players... Nashville and Chicago, I only did those 3 years, and DID NOT include their FIRST rounds...

What's BS about that?

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01-27-2012, 04:37 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
You arent reading my post... Chicago and Nashville HAVE drafted 2 SUPERSTAR players EACH OUTSIDE OF THE FIRST ROUND

BOLLAND CHICAGO 2nd round 32nd overall in 2004
BYFUGLIEN CHICAGO 245th overall in 2003

RINNE NASHVILLE 258th overall in 2004
WEBER NASHVILLE 2nd rd 49th overall in 2003.

That equals the amount of guys that qualified under the same premise UNDER TT. (Streit, & Price) which includes ALL of his picks from 2003-2008.

These 2 teams did this in a period I researched from 03-05.

2 Superstar players... Nashville and Chicago, I only did those 3 years, and DID NOT include their FIRST rounds...

What's BS about that?
onice has a wooddie for timmins- he has done alright- but when a person really really likesomeone- doesnt matter what your point of view is- im sure if someone else came in to run the show an kept timmins and told timmins the kind of players he wanted more were toughness size types - then timm would be looking more at that type of player

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01-27-2012, 04:38 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
You arent reading my post... Chicago and Nashville HAVE drafted 2 SUPERSTAR players EACH OUTSIDE OF THE FIRST ROUND

BOLLAND CHICAGO 2nd round 32nd overall in 2004
BYFUGLIEN CHICAGO 245th overall in 2003

RINNE NASHVILLE 258th overall in 2004
WEBER NASHVILLE 2nd rd 49th overall in 2003.

That equals the amount of guys that qualified under the same premise UNDER TT. (Streit, & Price) which includes ALL of his picks from 2003-2008.

These 2 teams did this in a period I researched from 03-05.

2 Superstar players... Nashville and Chicago, I only did those 3 years, and DID NOT include their FIRST rounds...

What's BS about that?
What's bs about it? While I somewhat agree that these guys would've been nice for Timmins to get us, since when is David Bolland a superstar? Or even Byfuglien? Both were role guys that you need to win a Cup. On our team you're telling me these guys would've made us Cup contenders? They certainly would've helped but they're far from gamebreakers. Without Kane, Sharp, Toews, Keith and Seabrook, these two aren't as heralded and certainly not overvalued the way you just did. Rinne is hardly that much better than Price. Better value considering where he was picked for sure but to call out our goalie picks is ridiculous. I guess you could say if we took Rinne then with the pick we used on Price we could've taken Marc Staal or Kopitar but we also nabbed Halak in a 9th round in '03 bud. Weber is the only true superstar you listed and one we truly did miss the boat on.

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01-27-2012, 04:39 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
You arent reading my post... Chicago and Nashville HAVE drafted 2 SUPERSTAR players EACH OUTSIDE OF THE FIRST ROUND

BOLLAND CHICAGO 2nd round 32nd overall in 2004
BYFUGLIEN CHICAGO 245th overall in 2003

RINNE NASHVILLE 258th overall in 2004
WEBER NASHVILLE 2nd rd 49th overall in 2003.
In what upside down world are Bolland & Byfuglien superstars?

Rinnie & Weber I agree with but Timmins can counter with Subban, Halak and then the rest of his picks put Nashville to shame.

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01-27-2012, 04:41 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac View Post
What's bs about it? While I somewhat agree since when is David Bolland a superstar? Or even Byfuglien? Both were role guys that you need to win a Cup. On our team you're telling me these guys would've made us Cup contenders? They certainly would've helped but they're far from gamebreakers. Without Kane, Sharp, Toews, Keith and Seabrook, these two aren't as heralded and certainly not overvalued the way you just did. Rinne is hardly that much better than Price. Better value considering where he was picked for sure but to call out our goalie picks is ridiculous. I guess you could say if we took Rinne then with the pick we used on Price we could've taken Marc Staal or Kopitar but we also nabbed Halak in a 9th round in '03 bud. Weber is the only true superstar you listed and one we truly did miss the boat on.
if timmins stayed ok- if he didnt ok- i dont see the big deal about it

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01-27-2012, 04:43 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
In what upside down world are Bolland & Byfuglien superstars?

Rinnie & Weber I agree with but Timmins can counter with Subban, Halak and then the rest of his picks put Nashville to shame.
other team have drafted well and have drafted star players
i dont get what the argument is about- and i might remind fullien and bolland have won a stanley cup and when a hab player scores a goal and makes a pass hes hailed as a star!!LOL

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01-27-2012, 04:46 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
other team have drafted well and have drafted star players
i dont get what the argument is about- and i might remind fullien and bolland have won a stanley cup
So did Gill, Moen, Gionta, Gomez... doesnt mean they're superstars...

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01-27-2012, 04:49 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
So did Gill, Moen, Gionta, Gomez... doesnt mean they're superstars...
and habs have them all - LOL- i wouldnt take all of them for Byfulien and Boland would you? the two have been good playoff players they raise there game in the 2nd season

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01-27-2012, 04:52 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
if timmins stayed ok- if he didnt ok- i dont see the big deal about it
Well it's not a big deal if you can find a suitable replacement. I don't think those who call him one of the best- pointing to our multiple draftees to make it- are accurate but those who bash him and say he's made far too many blunders are also not accurate. True he hasn't developed any superstars but many guys he helped select only ended up excelling AFTER we traded them which leads me to be a lot more pissed at our shoddy management and pro scouting than at our amateur scouting and Timmins.

He makes for an easy target especially for the French media but they rarely point to his real mistakes and instead harp on ones that caused us to miss out on Bergeron, Giroux, Perron, etc. (and yet where were these complaints at the time of the drafts? No one except true experts might've grumbled in 2003 when we took Urquhart over Bergeron). I for one am convinced that Giroux, Richards, Carter and anyone else Timmins passed on would be far from dominant had they played for us. Just seems to be the way things go for the Habs in recent years. Potential is never fully met for a player until they escape the madness of Habland.

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01-27-2012, 04:54 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac View Post
Well it's not a big deal if you can find a suitable replacement. I don't think those who call him one of the best- pointing to our multiple draftees to make it- are accurate but those who bash him and say he's made far too many blunders are also not accurate. True he hasn't developed any superstars but many guys he helped select only ended up excelling AFTER we traded them which leads me to be a lot more pissed at our shoddy management and pro scouting than at our amateur scouting and Timmins.

He makes for an easy target especially for the French media but they rarely point to his real mistakes and instead harp on ones that caused us to miss out on Bergeron, Giroux, Perron, etc. (and yet where were these complaints at the time of the drafts? No one except true experts might've grumbled in 2003 when we took Urquhart over Bergeron). I for one am convinced that Giroux, Richards, Carter and anyone else Timmins passed on would be far from dominant had they played for us. Just seems to be the way things go for the Habs in recent years. Potential is never fully met for a player until they escape the madness of Habland.
im sure if that happens there will be a suitable replacement- it deosnt all end with timmins- and like i said moe than once its more than just timmins- much more - as for the players you mentioned not being dominant- who knows- if tahst the way it is then who cares who replaces timmins

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01-27-2012, 05:02 PM
  #117
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and habs have them all - LOL- i wouldnt take all of them for Byfulien and Boland would you? the two have been good playoff players they raise there game in the 2nd season
They are good players no doubt but not superstars. It seems you have ridiculous definition of superstar where it is "all good player Montreal didn't draft." If we count Bolland and Buff for another team you have to count guys like Grabrovski and Streit for Montreal as they are of a comparable tier in ability.

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01-27-2012, 05:14 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
They are good players no doubt but not superstars. It seems you have ridiculous definition of superstar where it is "all good player Montreal didn't draft." If we count Bolland and Buff for another team you have to count guys like Grabrovski and Streit for Montreal as they are of a comparable tier in ability.
Well said and if someone chimes in with "Yeah but those guys aren't here anymore!" then they just confirmed Timmins is not to blame. It's not his call on who to trade. He's just responsible for who to draft and the Habs have failed for the most part in cultivating the talent he's provided us with. Like i said, he hasn't dug up any superstar gems but we don't know how many successes there could have been if the Habs hadn't been perpetually bad at helping young talent develop, nurturing them and surrounding them with quality teammates. The jerking around we give prospects is asinine, constantly letting higher paid guys and vets take top 6 minutes whether they deserve them or not and giving the young guys 4th line minutes and benching them at the first sign of struggle. At least when Richards and Carter came to philly, they could look up and see Simon Gagne, Peter Forsberg and Mike Knuble as what they had to aspire to and get past the level of.

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01-27-2012, 05:29 PM
  #119
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Reviewing Timmins draft picks

Established top 6 forwards
  • Sergei
  • Andrei
  • Latendresse
  • Grabovski
  • Pacioretty
Potential number 1 D-men
  • Subban

Established top 3 D-men(in my opinion)
  • Subban
  • McDonagh

Powerplay Quarter back
  • Streit
  • Subban?

Number 1 goaltenders
  • Price
  • Halak

Top 9 forwards
  • D'agostini
  • Lapierre

Grinders
  • White
  • Chipchura
Complimentary/bottom pairing D-men
  • Emelin(still has potential to switch groups)
  • O'byrne
  • Weber
  • Flood
Still underdevelopment with intrigue
  • Leblanc
  • Kristo
  • Tinordi
  • Beaulieu
  • Gallagher
  • Ellis


My take: Timmins has an unquestionable ability to draft nhl players. The sheer volume of players playing in the nhl especially given that the habs generally draft middle of the pack is outstanding. He's drafted almost every single type of player of player who can think of except that offensive superstar.Unfortunately, so called "fans" of hockey only care about offensive superstars and can't appreciate anything else and this is the only reason why Timmins isn't given the credit he deserves.

Anyone who thinks Timmins is a problem is out to lunch. Is he infallible...no? But he is doing a fantastic job and the habs are very very very lucky to have him on board.

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01-27-2012, 05:47 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Reviewing Timmins draft picks

Established top 6 forwards
  • Sergei
  • Andrei
  • Latendresse
  • Grabovski
  • Pacioretty
Potential number 1 D-men
  • Subban

Established top 3 D-men(in my opinion)
  • Subban
  • McDonagh

Powerplay Quarter back
  • Streit
  • Subban?

Number 1 goaltenders
  • Price
  • Halak

Top 9 forwards
  • D'agostini
  • Lapierre

Grinders
  • White
  • Chipchura
Complimentary/bottom pairing D-men
  • Emelin(still has potential to switch groups)
  • O'byrne
  • Weber
  • Flood
Still underdevelopment with intrigue
  • Leblanc
  • Kristo
  • Tinordi
  • Beaulieu
  • Gallagher
  • Ellis


My take: Timmins has an unquestionable ability to draft nhl players. The sheer volume of players playing in the nhl especially given that the habs generally draft middle of the pack is outstanding. He's drafted almost every single type of player of player who can think of except that offensive superstar.Unfortunately, so called "fans" of hockey only care about offensive superstars and can't appreciate anything else and this is the only reason why Timmins isn't given the credit he deserves.

Anyone who thinks Timmins is a problem is out to lunch. Is he infallible...no? But he is doing a fantastic job and the habs are very very very lucky to have him on board.
The way some, not all, of his critics talk it's almost as if they forget the terrible Houle era, Andre Savard's preoccupation with midgets and the last half decade of Serge Savard where we were useless at drafting. I don't know who our director of scouting guys were in this time other than Martin Madden but still, Timmins blows all guys away in our drafting personnel department since Ron Caron or Claude Ruel.

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01-27-2012, 05:47 PM
  #121
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Anyone who thinks Timmins is a problem is out to lunch. Is he infallible...no? But he is doing a fantastic job and the habs are very very very lucky to have him on board.
You can say that again!!!!! And since you probably won't, i decided to quote you. Oh and you forgot two verys so I'll add them here

very, very

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01-27-2012, 05:57 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
They are good players no doubt but not superstars. It seems you have ridiculous definition of superstar where it is "all good player Montreal didn't draft." If we count Bolland and Buff for another team you have to count guys like Grabrovski and Streit for Montreal as they are of a comparable tier in ability.
i never said either were superstarss- fans now a days dont have a grasp on what a superstar is or even a star- 20 goals meanstar in montreal now a days its comical

im not over rating like so manydo now

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01-27-2012, 06:00 PM
  #123
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You can say that again!!!!! And since you probably won't, i decided to quote you. Oh and you forgot two verys so I'll add them here

very, very
timmins is ok - but will be but a memory by the time habs ever become a top tier team

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01-27-2012, 06:06 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
You can say that again!!!!! And since you probably won't, i decided to quote you. Oh and you forgot two verys so I'll add them here

very, very
timmins is ok - but will be but a memory by the time habs ever become a top tier team

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01-27-2012, 06:32 PM
  #125
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timmins is ok - but will be but a memory by the time habs ever become a top tier team
agreed

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