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Old
01-28-2012, 04:50 PM
  #226
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The Bruins may have won last year, but thats not the only model capable of winning.

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01-28-2012, 05:03 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
Thinking about replacement is exactly what made our team what it is right now.

When you try to add skills, you don't let a good player go and then try to find a replacement for him. You try to add to the skill you already have. Now that skills are not an issue with the Habs, we have to find team toughness, and toughness is a type of skill.

To convince players that build that team toughness (Moens, Schultzs, Prusts, Ashams, etc) to sign a contract and to be willing to play for your team, you must carry one tough guy. It may be Shawn Thornton, Matt Carkner, George Parros, Mike Rupp or Deryk Engelland, we don't care. It must be the one that's going to be willing to handle other teams' tough players, what Moens and Prusts can't really by themselves.

After you get this one tough player, you can add, with trades or with UFA contracts, many other tough players that consolide this team toughness.

This is Bruins' model.
I beg to differ... this team lacks high end skills.

Do you have some kind of inferiority complex toward the Bruins ? They won, not because of their goons btu because they have the deepest team in the league with no weakness. For exemple, Thornton was scratched 7 games in the PO and had zero fight... his last PO fight was in 2007 !

Goons and enforcers are for the long regular season and poor markets where fans only enjoy fights... when it really matters, they dissapear.

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01-28-2012, 05:04 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The Bruins may have won last year, but thats not the only model capable of winning.
It's the model that all hockey teams should follow in North America. You are gonna tell me that the Red Wings are not tough and they are a good team, but not every team have Datsyuk, Lidstrom and Zetterberg on their team at the same time.

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01-28-2012, 05:06 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
It's the model that all hockey teams should follow in North America. You are gonna tell me that the Red Wings are not tough and they are a good team, but not every team have Datsyuk, Lidstrom and Zetterberg on their team at the same time.
No it isn't.

They have won 1 cup. That doesnt mean every team should copy them.

They also wouldnt have won without the best defenceman and best goalie in the NHL; along with 3 lines of deep offence... these were far more important than their toughness.

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01-28-2012, 05:11 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
I beg to differ... this team lacks high end skills.

Do you have some kind of inferiority complex toward the Bruins ? They won, not because of their goons btu because they have the deepest team in the league with no weakness. For exemple, Thornton was scratched 7 games in the PO and had zero fight... his last PO fight was in 2007 !

Goons and enforcers are for the long regular season and poor markets where fans only enjoy fights... when it really matters, they dissapear.
Another post without facts ! There has been an increase in concussions by 50%, ever since the instegator ruled was conceived. That is a fact.

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01-28-2012, 05:15 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by AHMB Prez View Post
Another post without facts ! There has been an increase in concussions by 50%, ever since the instegator ruled was conceived. That is a fact.
It's a statistic with no correlation whatsoever but I doubt you have the capabilities to understand that... oh and one more thing

Btw, here's a fact for you % of game with fights in 2010-2011 regular season : 37%
In the 2011 PO = 14%


Last edited by Live in the Now: 01-28-2012 at 07:27 PM. Reason: removed flaming
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01-28-2012, 05:16 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by AHMB Prez View Post
Another post without facts ! There has been an increase in concussions by 50%, ever since the instegator ruled was conceived. That is a fact.
Since so many concussions were never reported in the 70s and 80s it is impossible to say that concussions have gone up since the instigator rule was implemented or by what amount.

The numbers on how many concussions occured over 15 years ago are quite simply not reliable.

On top of that, even if these stats were reliable, there is merely very, very limited evidence of a direct correlation between the two when so many other factors might be involved (equipment, speed of game, size of players, etc...).

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01-28-2012, 05:25 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTL-Rules
I beg to differ... this team lacks high end skills.

Do you have some kind of inferiority complex toward the Bruins ? They won, not because of their goons btu because they have the deepest team in the league with no weakness. For exemple, Thornton was scratched 7 games in the PO and had zero fight... his last PO fight was in 2007 !

Goons and enforcers are for the long regular season and poor markets where fans only enjoy fights... when it really matters, they dissapear.
I for sure have an inferiority complex towards the Bruins, they ARE superior, and their fans are superior, and you're proving it by not understanding what team toughness is.

They have the deepest team in the league? Were they touched with injuries and such problems? Besides Marc Savard, no, and it's been a long time they solved the Marc Savard problem.

You don't need to fight to consolide team toughness. We all know that there are not a lot of fights during the playoffs.

Plus, Boston, Ottawa, Toronto, NYR, etc, are not poor markets. Even Montreal caried a goon most of their existence and is Montreal a small and poor market? Your arguments as puss as your vision of what hockey is / or should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
No it isn't.

They have won 1 cup. That doesnt mean every team should copy them.

They also wouldnt have won without the best defenceman and best goalie in the NHL; along with 3 lines of deep offence... these were far more important than their toughness.
Isn't Carey Price one of the best goalies in the NHL?
I thought we were supposed to have 3 lines of deep offense in Montreal either.

The difference: we have no team toughness.

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01-28-2012, 06:18 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
I for sure have an inferiority complex towards the Bruins, they ARE superior, and their fans are superior, and you're proving it by not understanding what team toughness is.

They have the deepest team in the league? Were they touched with injuries and such problems? Besides Marc Savard, no, and it's been a long time they solved the Marc Savard problem.

You don't need to fight to consolide team toughness. We all know that there are not a lot of fights during the playoffs.

Plus, Boston, Ottawa, Toronto, NYR, etc, are not poor markets. Even Montreal caried a goon most of their existence and is Montreal a small and poor market? Your arguments as puss as your vision of what hockey is / or should be.



Isn't Carey Price one of the best goalies in the NHL?
I thought we were supposed to have 3 lines of deep offense in Montreal either.

The difference: we have no team toughness.
The Bruins beat us in 7 games... with that 7th game, plus 2 others being OT wins. We were one goal from knocking them out.... and you didnt address the "best defenceman in the whole league" thing.

Markov might not be as good as Chara, but give us Markov in that series, and we might have gotten that 1 goal we needed.

We might not have won the cup, but no one would talk about copying the "Bruins Model" thats for damn sure.

The Bruins were also a mere 1 goal away from getting beat by Tampa, another team not known for their toughness.

And Vancouver also took them to 7 games.

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01-28-2012, 06:21 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The Bruins beat us in 7 games... with that 7th game, plus 2 others being OT wins. We were one goal from knocking them out.... and you didnt address the "best defenceman in the whole league" thing.

Markov might not be as good as Chara, but give us Markov in that series, and we might have gotten that 1 goal we needed.
Or give us Pacioretty and maybe the habs get that one goal they needed.

Or give the habs Gorges and maybe they prevent the one goal that put them out.

Or change the fact that Wisniewski got hurt in game 5.

The habs were banged up and got as close as you can get to eliminating a team. In game 7, Thomas' butt-end of the stick saved Kostitsyn's shot and an unware Seidenberg stopped a goal with skate-blade.

The series was about as even as you could possibly get.

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01-28-2012, 06:23 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
The Bruins beat us in 7 games... with that 7th game, plus 2 others being OT wins. We were one goal from knocking them out.... and you didnt address the "best defenceman in the whole league" thing.

Markov might not be as good as Chara, but give us Markov in that series, and we might have gotten that 1 goal we needed.
They are an overally superior team to ours, that's it. They don't have much more skills than us, they have the team toughness that we don't have.

Now you're saying that they have beaten us in seven games, which is true.

But they finished over us during the regular season.
They are actually way over us in the standings.

Against all the teams of the league, they win more often than us. I don't care what we do only against the Bruins, it's way more about what we can do against all the teams of the NHL, and you have to admit that they are a superior team. We could win all of our 6 games against them, we still are losing more often than them, and they're still winning more often than us.

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01-28-2012, 06:27 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Or give us Pacioretty and maybe the habs get that one goal they needed.

Or give the habs Gorges and maybe they prevent the one goal that put them out.

Or change the fact that Wisniewski got hurt in game 5.

The habs were banged up and got as close as you can get to eliminating a team. In game 7, Thomas' butt-end of the stick saved Kostitsyn's shot and an unware Seidenberg stopped a goal with skate-blade.

The series was about as even as you could possibly get.
Exactly

The Bruins model won ONE TIME

It has not proven that its unbeatable and has not proven that it is the best way to run a hockey team

Just like the Blackhawks/Flyers (we don't need a goalie model 2010) hasn't proven to be best

Or the Penguins tank for Crosby/Malkin/Fleury/Staal model hasn't proven to be a dynasty.

There is way more than 1 way to build a hockey team, and implying that following the Bruins model is the way to go is silly.

The thing to do is when you have a season like ours, where literally everything that could go wrong has gone wrong, you sell your replaceable UFAs like Moen, Gill and Campoli and get some draft picks and/or prospects. You take a guy like AK and see if you can sign him, if not you trade him for picks and prospects too... and then you replace those guys with UFAs.

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01-28-2012, 06:42 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The Bruins model won ONE TIME
Where were they in last year's standings?
Where are they placed in this year's standings?
Which team out of the Bruins and the Canadiens have the best chances to win the Stanley Cup this year?

The Bruins model won ONE TIME in a 30 franchises hockey league that all have as an objective to win the Stanley Cup.

Other than that, which teams actually are on the top of our conference?

- Rangers (Rupp, Prust, Bickel, Deveaux, Dubinsky, even Callahan...)
- Bruins (Thornton, Lucic, Chara, McQuaid, Boychuk, Campbell, Horton, now targetting Canes' Gleason)
- Flyers (Shelley, Sestito, Simmonds, Rinaldo, Hartnell, Bourdon...)
- Pittsburgh (MacIntyre, Engelland, Asham, Adams, Kennedy...)
- Ottawa (Carkner, Neil, Konopka, Smith, even Foligno and Cowen)
- Washington (Erskine, Hendricks, but they are the odd team in the East).

And the bottom of the conference?

- Montreal (Moen?)
- Islanders (Martin)
- Hurricanes (Harrison, Gleason)
- Lightning (Downie??)
- Buffalo (McCormick, Gaustad)
No heavyweight fighter there.

Most of these teams have enough skills to make it ot the playoffs, but they don't have enough TEAM TOUGHNESS (key word). They don't have the type of players that are going to step up for their teamates. Vancouver and Detroit may not have a lot of team toughness, but they have superskilled players that even the Bruins don't have.

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01-28-2012, 07:02 PM
  #239
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Its really not worth getting into.... I see you are a new user... but if you search old threads weve had this debate numerous times and it never goes anywhere.

I'm just going to say, there is more than one model of what wins in the NHL, and that there are cup champions like Detroit, or like Pittsburgh (who had a goon, but he never played in the playoffs) or Carolina who won without one. So there is no proof that the Bruins model is the only way to win in this league.

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01-28-2012, 07:04 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Its really not worth getting into.... I see you are a new user... but if you search old threads weve had this debate numerous times and it never goes anywhere.

I'm just going to say, there is more than one model of what wins in the NHL, and that there are cup champions like Detroit, or like Pittsburgh (who had a goon, but he never played in the playoffs) or Carolina who won without one. So there is no proof that the Bruins model is the only way to win in this league.
I never said it was the only way, I said it was the best.

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01-28-2012, 07:08 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
I never said it was the only way, I said it was the best.
There is no proof of that either.

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01-28-2012, 07:17 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
There is no proof of that either.
Not according to my quantitative methods class.

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01-28-2012, 07:31 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
Not according to my quantitative methods class.
So taking a standard CEGEP course all of a sudden makes you an expert?

Statistical analysis isn't proof. It's something used heavily in Social Sciences to determine correlations so that Social Scientists can try and develop scientific like theories for subjects like Sociology, International Relations, Psychology etc. The first thing you also learn in those classes is that correlation does not equal causation.

In other words, stats tell a part of the story, whether or not it is the story is another question because statistics can be interpreted in many ways.

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01-28-2012, 07:42 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
Not according to my quantitative methods class.
oh wow... thats the argument.... wow, thats all i can come up with.

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01-28-2012, 07:47 PM
  #245
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He's good at what he does & one of the few players on this club that has/know's his role. Will shove back when push comes & will net you some goals when needed, not flashy but works.
That's the issue here; Moen is not the player he's been this contract year. The last two years, he's been very inconsistent as far as forechecking goes and wasn't that guy that "will net you some goals when needed."

Mind you, he's been very decent this year, but I wouldn't sign him for more than one year knowing that he's getting older and has never been the Anaheim Moen until this contract year.

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01-28-2012, 08:10 PM
  #246
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That's the issue here; Moen is not the player he's been this contract year. The last two years, he's been very inconsistent as far as forechecking goes and wasn't that guy that "will net you some goals when needed."

Mind you, he's been very decent this year, but I wouldn't sign him for more than one year knowing that he's getting older and has never been the Anaheim Moen until this contract year.
Moen has bee inconsistent forechecking the last two years? WHAT?

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01-28-2012, 08:13 PM
  #247
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Montreal Canadiens Fans

"Keep in mind they are only rumors but I've been hearing multiple reports of Moen going to the Canucks, 1 of the names I heard coming back are Mason Raymond."


Last edited by Maliki2: 01-28-2012 at 08:20 PM.
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01-28-2012, 08:26 PM
  #248
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Not according to my quantitative methods class.
wow, just....wow. If you get an A+ in that class, do you get an NHL GM job?

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01-28-2012, 08:29 PM
  #249
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Montreal Canadiens Fans

"Keep in mind they are only rumors but I've been hearing multiple reports of Moen going to the Canucks, 1 of the names I heard coming back are Mason Raymond."
If the HABS can resign him that would be a good deal

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01-28-2012, 09:04 PM
  #250
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If the HABS can resign him that would be a good deal
Raymond is only an RFA, so that would definitely be something I would do.

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