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Lebrun: Canuck and others looking at Moen

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01-28-2012, 08:23 PM
  #251
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
Where were they in last year's standings?
Where are they placed in this year's standings?
Which team out of the Bruins and the Canadiens have the best chances to win the Stanley Cup this year?

The Bruins model won ONE TIME in a 30 franchises hockey league that all have as an objective to win the Stanley Cup.

Other than that, which teams actually are on the top of our conference?

- Rangers (Richards, Gaborik)
- Bruins (Seguin, Chara)
- Flyers (Giroux, Briere)
- Pittsburgh (Malkin)
- Ottawa (Spezza)
- Washington (Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Green).

And the bottom of the conference?

- Montreal (Moen?)
- Islanders (Martin)
- Hurricanes (Harrison, Gleason)
- Lightning (Downie??)
- Buffalo (McCormick, Gaustad)
No heavyweight fighter there.

Most of these teams have enough skills to make it ot the playoffs, but they don't have enough TEAM TOUGHNESS (key word). They don't have the type of players that are going to step up for their teamates. Vancouver and Detroit may not have a lot of team toughness, but they have superskilled players that even the Bruins don't have.
and where's our Chara, our Malkin or our Giroux ?

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01-28-2012, 08:26 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and where's our Chara, our Malkin or our Giroux ?
You could also add Alfredson, Karlson, Pronger, Timonen, Neal, Letang on that list as well.

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01-28-2012, 08:49 PM
  #253
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If all teams at the top of the conference can have fighters on their 4th line why not the Habs ?? Because we have too much depth ??

I'm agree with enforcer4. The 5 worst teams in the east are also the 5 softest teams. There is a connection there

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01-28-2012, 09:01 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
If all teams at the top of the conference can have fighters on their 4th line why not the Habs ?? Because we have too much depth ??

I'm agree with enforcer4. The 5 worst teams in the east are also the 5 softest teams. There is a connection there
And the 5 worst teams in the west also have fighters or guys willing to fight on their teams. I am using Enforcer's own standards here.

Columbus(Bass, Boll, Dorsett)
Edmonton (Eager, Peckham, Hordichuk)
Anaheim (Parros, Beleskey, Perry, Getzlaf)
Calgary (Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond, Jackman, Iginla)
Dallas (Ott, Burish, Souray, Morrow)

Again, Correlation doesn't equal causation.

It is more likely that the teams are at the bottom because that they are not particularly well-built(Islanders/Canes) or they are decimated by injuries(Tampa, Buffalo).

I don't see any particular trend here.


Last edited by Andy: 01-28-2012 at 09:07 PM.
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01-28-2012, 09:05 PM
  #255
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Leblond is in the AHL. Same thing fo Bass. Souray doesn't fight anymore even if he is still one of my favourite player. Burish doesn't fight. And it's not like those 5 teams were the toughest in the Western conference so... (except Edmonton)

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01-28-2012, 09:07 PM
  #256
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The fighting argument is boring and not very relevant. IMO it takes up way too much space.

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Montreal Canadiens Fans

"Keep in mind they are only rumors but I've been hearing multiple reports of Moen going to the Canucks, 1 of the names I heard coming back are Mason Raymond."
Interesting. This seems more plausible than a lot of the rumours we are hearing. I think this would be a good move for the Habs, although it might signal the end of Kostitsyn in Montreal.


Last edited by Roulin: 01-28-2012 at 09:17 PM.
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01-28-2012, 09:08 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Leblond is in the AHL. Same thing fo Bass. Souray doesn't fight anymore even if he is still one of my favourite player. Burish doesn't fight. And it's not like those 5 teams were the toughest in the Western conference so...
Burish does fight. I used Enforcers own standards. He included guys like Dubinsky, Callahan and Tyler Kennedy(has 1 more fight than Burish) in his list, that easily qualifies guys like Burish, Getzlaf, Perry etc.

Cody Bass has played as many games as guys like Deveaux, Bickel, Shelley who Enforcer4 also included in his list. It's starting to look like he is stretching to prove a point which doesn't prove anything at all.

He also includes Tom Sestito in his list who played 5 games. If that is the standard than we can also include Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond and his 3 games.


Last edited by Andy: 01-28-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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01-28-2012, 09:11 PM
  #258
Aurel Joliat
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Come on, he drops the gloves 2 times per year, that's not a true fighter. Only a decent player who is useful on a 4th line to bring some energy. Not like the guy on your avatar

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01-28-2012, 09:15 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Come on, he drops the gloves 2 times per year, that's not a true fighter. Only a decent player who is useful on a 4th line to bring some energy. Not like the guy on your avatar
Yet the poster you are supporting includes Tyler Kennedy as a part of his argument.

Using Enforcer4's standards, it looks like the bottom 5 teams in the west have as many guys willing to fight as top teams in the East. So some other factor is at play here in allowing teams to be top in the east.

Sure the bottom teams in the east have hardly any enforcers, but it's no surprise that they are also either heavily injured or poorly built teams, teams which have been at the bottom for years like the Islanders.

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01-28-2012, 09:17 PM
  #260
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I would not include him on my list either.

This is my list
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=944463

You will see how tough we are compare to 28 of the 29 others

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01-28-2012, 09:20 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
I would not include him on my list either.

This is my list
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=944463

You will see how tough we are compare to 28 of the 29 others
But now you are changing the entire subject/premise of the argument.

You supported Enforcer4's thesis that a team's place in the standing can correlated to the amount of players willing to fight. Using his standards, we see that doesn't apply to teams in the west.

You are now talking about Habs in comparison to other teams. This isn't the same argument at all which Enforcer4 is talking about. In other words, saying that other teams have enforcers why not the habs is not equivalent to saying that a team's place in the standing can be correlated with the amount of enforcers/fighters/tough guys in the lineup.

Stick to and defend one subject at a time. Don't bail on an argument and switch topic to your convience.

What you said here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
I'm agree with enforcer4. The 5 worst teams in the east are also the 5 softest teams. There is a connection there
is not at all the same subject as what you said here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
You will see how tough we are compare to 28 of the 29 others

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01-28-2012, 09:24 PM
  #262
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Except Detroit, name me a top team in the West who doesn't have at least 3 guys who can drop them ? Chicago and St-Louis are probably the 2 toughest teams in the west, San Jose have 5 ''fighters'', Vancouver are 7th in the league in fighting majors...

You need to be tough to win in the NHL.

Only Detroit is an exception because they are an all star team

And to return into the subject, if we trade Moen, we will have 1 guy who can fight ad it's White who did not play a single game this year

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01-28-2012, 09:27 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Except Detroit, name me a top team in the West who doesn't have at least 3 guys who can drop them ? Chicago and St-Louis are probably the 2 toughest teams in the west, San Jose have 5 ''fighers'', Vancouver are 7th in the league in fighting majors...

You need to be tough to win in the NHL.

Only Detroit is an exception because they are an all star team

And to return into the subject, if we trade Moen, we will have 1 guy who can fight ad it's White who did not play a single game this year

Considering that every team on your list has 3-4 tough guys in their lineup, there must be something more to being a top team aside from fighting. If everyone has it(and from your list, it looks like everyone pretty much has it), then something is else is differentiating these teams.

It's one component, to say it's THE component is false and that is what Enforcer4 was eluding to, a thesis which you defended on this very page and decided to switch topic.

As for your list, you rejected Cody Bass earlier, but then thought it would be okay to include Tom sestito for the Flyers though he has played 5 games.

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01-28-2012, 09:30 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Considering that every team on your list has 3-4 tough guys in their lineup, there must be something more to being a top team aside from fighting. If everyone has it(and from your list, it looks like everyone pretty much has it), then something is else is differentiating these teams.

It's one component, to say it's THE component is false and that is what Enforcer4 was eluding to, a thesis which you defended on this very page and decided to switch topic.
We are agree on this : it's one component and not the component. BUT, it's such an easy component to find that I don't understand why we are sticking with useless players like Darche on the 4th instead of a tough guy

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01-28-2012, 09:32 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
We are agree on this : it's one componenent and not the component. BUT, it's sy=uch an easy component to find that I don't understand why we are sticking with useless players like Darche on the 4th instead of a tough guy
I've never seen a fanbase obsess sooooooooo much about a 4th line especially when there are other holes on the team that need to be filled and that would have a much bigger impace. Given the state of the team right now, replacing a guy like Darche with a guy like Bass would make such an insignificant difference to the time in the grand scheme of things.

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01-28-2012, 09:37 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I've never seen a fanbase obsess sooooooooo much about a 4th line especially when there are other holes on the team that need to be filled and that would have a much bigger impace. Given the state of the team right now, replacing a guy like Darche with a guy like Bass would make such an insignificant difference to the time in the grand scheme of things.
That can make a lot more difference that you think. The team can play with a lot more confidence, knowing that someone will take in charge the toughness department. It make me sick when I see Shawn Thornton bullying guys like Lars Eller. If only we have someone to shut his mouth just like the Flyers or the Senators can do.

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01-28-2012, 09:38 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
That can make a lot more difference that you think. The team can play with a lot more confidence, knowing that someone will take in charge the toughness department. It make me sick when I see Shawn Thornton bullying guys like Lars Eller. If only we have someone to shut his mouth just like the Flyers or the Senators can do.
So the difference between the team being in 11th place and 8th place for this season is having a guy like Shawn Thornton?

Intimidation is probably the last reason why the habs are in 11th.

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01-28-2012, 09:43 PM
  #268
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So the difference between the team being in 11th place and 8th place for this season is having a guy like Shawn Thornton?
No, but it's an easy aspect to correct A step in the right direction

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01-28-2012, 09:48 PM
  #269
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If fighting and having tough guys is so important to winning, why do teams regularly scratch their goons in the playoffs when winning becomes most important?

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01-28-2012, 09:52 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
No, but it's an easy aspect to correct A step in the right direction
Stop making sense!

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01-28-2012, 10:06 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
No, but it's an easy aspect to correct A step in the right direction
Considering that it will have virtually no difference on this team's performance this season, it is a move that just ensures status quo. It addresses a problem which isn't a problem at all.

The habs aren't losing any games because they lack enforcers, fighters or guys willing to fight, they are however losing games because they can't score on the PP, don't have any top 4 d-men outside of Subban and Gorges and lack elite-end scoring.

Unless getting an enforcing solves any problems which prevent this team from winning games now, then it is a step in no direction. It's basically running on the spot. If it's so easy to acquire one, then there is no rush in acquiring it if it makes no difference in the current state of the team's affairs.

Anyway, White is coming back, so you will get your fights.

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01-28-2012, 10:30 PM
  #272
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Moen + gill for K-con + 3rd (prob the canucks best rookie defense-man, maybe only behind a guy like tanev).

http://www.theprovince.com/business/...097/story.html

No clue the value for hal gill

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01-28-2012, 10:41 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Moen + gill for K-con + 3rd (prob the canucks best rookie defense-man, maybe only behind a guy like tanev).

http://www.theprovince.com/business/...097/story.html

No clue the value for hal gill
We don't really need young offensive D.... I'd rather you up the draft pick (i figure Gill and Moen are worth 2nds individually); or give a high quality forward prospect (size preffered).

We have so many D in the pipeline already.

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01-28-2012, 11:00 PM
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
We don't really need young offensive D.... I'd rather you up the draft pick (i figure Gill and Moen are worth 2nds individually); or give a high quality forward prospect (size preffered).

We have so many D in the pipeline already.
FWIW, Connauton's more of a Bieksa-type than a pure offensive D-man, though offense is certainly his strength. He hits, fights, and lays the lumber freely, and he has a hell of a shot. His defensive awareness is a work in progress though.

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01-28-2012, 11:50 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
The fighting argument is boring and not very relevant. IMO it takes up way too much space.



Interesting. This seems more plausible than a lot of the rumours we are hearing. I think this would be a good move for the Habs, although it might signal the end of Kostitsyn in Montreal.
Raymond-Eller-AKos could be and interesting 3rd line though...

Agree about the fighting argument too. Isn't there a toughness tread for that somewhere?

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