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Lebrun: Canuck and others looking at Moen

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Old
01-29-2012, 10:03 AM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
wow, just....wow. If you get an A+ in that class, do you get an NHL GM job?
No.

It simply shows us that statistics do not lie.

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01-29-2012, 10:07 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
It simply shows us that statistics do not lie.
Ah, if we could all be so naive. Enjoy it while you can.

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01-29-2012, 10:26 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
And the 5 worst teams in the west also have fighters or guys willing to fight on their teams. I am using Enforcer's own standards here.

Columbus(Bass, Boll, Dorsett)
Edmonton (Eager, Peckham, Hordichuk)
Anaheim (Parros, Beleskey, Perry, Getzlaf)
Calgary (Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond, Jackman, Iginla)
Dallas (Ott, Burish, Souray, Morrow)

Again, Correlation doesn't equal causation.

It is more likely that the teams are at the bottom because that they are not particularly well-built(Islanders/Canes) or they are decimated by injuries(Tampa, Buffalo).

I don't see any particular trend here.
Columbus: Bass is in the AHL (and a weak fighter), Dorsett is Jackets' version of Ryan White, and Boll was out for an injury at the beggining of the year, and for a nose injury in december. Not a tough team.

Edmonton: Hordi is a scratch, Peckham and Eager are weak fighters and aren't liable. SOFT.

Anaheim: They do have team toughness, but simply nothing works. Getzlaf played like a fat 30 yrs old wh*** sat on the couch, Hiller stops nothing... nothing to do with Parros. Pretty tough team though.

Calgary: Funny. Leblond played 3 games, Ivanans 1 game. Jackman is not enough tough to be an enforcer. Soft team.

Dallas: They had Barch but they traded him. Ott, Dowell, Burish, none of them are enforcers (like Barch was). Morrow handles himself but tries not to take too many 5 minutes majors and isn't an enforcer. Soft team.

Want to continue?

Phoenix (12) : Bissonnette is a scratch and doesn't want to fight anymore. Chipchura has to be a fake tough. Torres is a punk. A soft ass team.

Colorado (9) : McLeod isn't an enforcer, O'Brien is tough but it is such a soft ass team.

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01-29-2012, 10:57 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Kickassguy View Post
FWIW, Connauton's more of a Bieksa-type than a pure offensive D-man, though offense is certainly his strength. He hits, fights, and lays the lumber freely, and he has a hell of a shot. His defensive awareness is a work in progress though.
Doesn't change the fact that he does not fit any of the needs of the Habs going forward. Again, give up a forward prospect with size or a better draft pick, because the Defenceman whose defence is a work in progress doesn't fit the Habs team needs.

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01-29-2012, 11:26 AM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
Columbus: Bass is in the AHL (and a weak fighter), Dorsett is Jackets' version of Ryan White, and Boll was out for an injury at the beggining of the year, and for a nose injury in december. Not a tough team.

Edmonton: Hordi is a scratch, Peckham and Eager are weak fighters and aren't liable. SOFT.

Anaheim: They do have team toughness, but simply nothing works. Getzlaf played like a fat 30 yrs old wh*** sat on the couch, Hiller stops nothing... nothing to do with Parros. Pretty tough team though.

Calgary: Funny. Leblond played 3 games, Ivanans 1 game. Jackman is not enough tough to be an enforcer. Soft team.

Dallas: They had Barch but they traded him. Ott, Dowell, Burish, none of them are enforcers (like Barch was). Morrow handles himself but tries not to take too many 5 minutes majors and isn't an enforcer. Soft team.

Want to continue?

Phoenix (12) : Bissonnette is a scratch and doesn't want to fight anymore. Chipchura has to be a fake tough. Torres is a punk. A soft ass team.

Colorado (9) : McLeod isn't an enforcer, O'Brien is tough but it is such a soft ass team.
Yet you brought up Tom Sestito, Brandon Dubinsky, Ryan Callahan, Tim Kennedy, and Nick Foligno as examples of enforcers on those top teams.

Seems to me you want to have your cake and eat it too.

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01-29-2012, 12:48 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
That can make a lot more difference that you think. The team can play with a lot more confidence, knowing that someone will take in charge the toughness department. It make me sick when I see Shawn Thornton bullying guys like Lars Eller. If only we have someone to shut his mouth just like the Flyers or the Senators can do.
Who on the Flyers or Senators has 'shut Thornton's mouth' exactly? And when was Lars Eller 'bullied' by him? I seem to remember a game against Boston this season when Eller shoved McQuaid right through the net. Didn't look very bullied at that poijnt, obviously if it had happened the other way it would have been yet another sign that we 'lack toughness'.

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01-29-2012, 12:53 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
Columbus: Bass is in the AHL (and a weak fighter), Dorsett is Jackets' version of Ryan White, and Boll was out for an injury at the beggining of the year, and for a nose injury in december. Not a tough team.

Edmonton: Hordi is a scratch, Peckham and Eager are weak fighters and aren't liable. SOFT.
Guess you have the advantage of only having registered in January and therefore weren't around to post in the threads over the summer where a number of people wanted to sign Hordichuck or Eager

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01-29-2012, 01:25 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
Guess you have the advantage of only having registered in January and therefore weren't around to post in the threads over the summer where a number of people wanted to sign Hordichuck or Eager
I would still welcome any of the 2 with open arms.

It's still amazing to me how so many "veteran" posters here can't or won't acknowledge that's it's the MIX between the toughness and the talent that makes great teams. Telling people that Columbus should be a good team because they have a couple tough players is not only taking people for idiots, it makes you look like one too...

There's a lot of teams that "get it". Just look at the NY rangers, Boston, Philly, Toronto, Ottawa, New Jersey, Vancouver, San Jose, LA, etc etc.. They all teams that stick up for one and another, and yes, to the displeasure of many here, sometimes that includes a good fight. Did any of the teams that I mentioned neglect talent cause they have toughness? It's not about having the best fighter more than it is about somebody doing the damn job, no matter how badly it sucks. Habs should have AT LEAST 1 defensmen that can take care of the nasty stuff and 2 forwards who should be able to air on the Niel's and Lucic's in the NHL.

If we're not getting a younger Moen back, I don't want him to leave. I think tha having him and White on the 4th line, Blunden on the 3rd line, 2 power forwards on the 2nd line and Bourque crashing the net is a step in the right direction.

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01-29-2012, 01:36 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Yet you brought up Tom Sestito, Brandon Dubinsky, Ryan Callahan, Tim Kennedy, and Nick Foligno as examples of enforcers on those top teams.

Seems to me you want to have your cake and eat it too.
It's their team toughness, not their enforcers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtacular
Guess you have the advantage of only having registered in January and therefore weren't around to post in the threads over the summer where a number of people wanted to sign Hordichuck or Eager
Too bad it's a minority, and too bad the Habs management is too soft to think that way. I couldn't say no to a Ben Eager in Montreal, it's some good team toughness all season long without being a liability while on the ice. He simply is not an enforcer.

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01-29-2012, 02:04 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
It's their team toughness, not their enforcers.



Too bad it's a minority, and too bad the Habs management is too soft to think that way. I couldn't say no to a Ben Eager in Montreal, it's some good team toughness all season long without being a liability while on the ice. He simply is not an enforcer.
The point is that the way you have defined "toughness" is flawed. Its completely arbitrary and is based on your desire to prove your hypothesis. You have accepted certain players as tough, and rejected other players who are extremely similar as not tough, based on arbitrary criteria, and it looks an awful lot like that criteria is whether or not it proves your hypothesis.

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01-29-2012, 02:13 PM
  #286
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As for the only relevant part of this debate, the part that pertains to Moen: the bottom line is, Moen's toughness has not translated into any exceptional on ice success. He hasn't been a huge liability, but his team has consistently been outshot by a small margin when he is on the ice. Whatever edge his toughness brings, can be replaced by another depth winger's toughness, skill, speed or intelligence. This is the most easily filled position in the NHL, other than maybe backup goalie. Might as well collect the draft pick or prospect, and go bargain hunting in the offseason.

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01-29-2012, 02:34 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The point is that the way you have defined "toughness" is flawed. Its completely arbitrary and is based on your desire to prove your hypothesis. You have accepted certain players as tough, and rejected other players who are extremely similar as not tough, based on arbitrary criteria, and it looks an awful lot like that criteria is whether or not it proves your hypothesis.
No, because my hypothesis is that you need an enforcer to consolide your team toughness, what the Oilers, the Stars and the Flames don't have even though they have some scrappers in their lineups. You named Eager and Peckham for the Oilers, but they represent nothing as long as Hordichuk is scratched. They would represent something if Hordichuk wasn't scratched.

Take the Rangers for example.

Prust, Bickel, Deveaux, Dubinsky and Callahan can not handle the Bruins as long as the Bruins play with Thornton and Lucic. But put Mike Rupp in Rangers' lineup, it makes them way better against the Bruins because Mike Rupp is the man that will stand up against Lucic and Thornton, so Prust can handle the guys of his size and ability power like McQuaid, Campbell and such.

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01-29-2012, 03:03 PM
  #288
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If having an enforcer in the lineup is important to winning.

Why do those teams regularly scratch the enforcer in the playoffs when winning is most important?

This is the question you still avoid.

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01-29-2012, 03:10 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
If having an enforcer in the lineup is important to winning.

Why do those teams regularly scratch the enforcer in the playoffs when winning is most important?

This is the question you still avoid.
Because they still don't understand the importance of having them on your roster to have a solid squad.

And those teams actually are not winning.

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01-29-2012, 03:11 PM
  #290
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Trading Moen would be foolish unless he wants a big pay raise, which he can't. I don't get it. We need every bit of tuff and grit we can get our hands on. This team is a circus troupe.

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01-29-2012, 03:18 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
Because they still don't understand the importance of having them on your roster to have a solid squad.

And those teams actually are not winning.
Did you read the question.....

If enforcers are important to winning... why do teams regularly scratch their enforcers IN THE PLAYOFFS, when winning is most important?

Are you telling me that every team in the NHL still doesn't understand the importance of having them on the roster in the playoffs when they have used these guys all season.


Example
11 Bruins.... Thornton... healthy scratch for 7 playoff games.
10 Blackhawks.... have no enforcer according to your Eager is not an enforcer statements.
09 Penguins... Godard 71/82 RS games... 0 playoff games.
08 RedWings... Downey 56 RS games.... 0 playoff games..
07 Ducks... Shane Obrien 62 RS games... 0 playoff games... George Parros... 0 playoff games.
06 Canes.... no enforcer... even traded Jesse Boulerice away during the season.


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01-29-2012, 03:24 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
If having an enforcer in the lineup is important to winning.

Why do those teams regularly scratch the enforcer in the playoffs when winning is most important?

This is the question you still avoid.
Because regular season hockey and playoff hockey is not the same. The mindset is completely different, in playoffs you give everything you have to make your play and you go back to the bench before you're not playing at 100% energy. Players don't risk or do exceptions towards opponents, they hit if they can, they don't if they can't. The same goes with bullying or intimidation tactics that could cost penalties.

And btw, answer me this question then, if some teams adjust from regular season to playoffs, then why the hell can't we do the same?

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01-29-2012, 03:31 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Because regular season hockey and playoff hockey is not the same. The mindset is completely different, in playoffs you give everything you have to make your play and you go back to the bench before you're not playing at 100% energy. Players don't risk or do exceptions towards opponents, they hit if they can, they don't if they can't. The same goes with bullying or intimidation tactics that could cost penalties.
So you admit that when winning is most important, the bullying and intimidation tactics go out the window?

But yet we still hear the argument that these tactics (and not the fact that the Bruins have the best goalie, best defenceman, and deepest offence in the league) are the reasons that they win?

Quote:
And btw, answer me this question then, if some teams adjust from regular season to playoffs, then why the hell can't we do the same?
Fighting is a sideshow in today's NHL with the way the instigator rule is. An enforcer who can't play a regular shift, would add nothing to this team.

I don't mind the Moens, the Prusts, the Steve Otts, Chris Neils, etc... but there is zero evidence that having a 2-4 minute per game goon on your team is necessary or even helps your team win..


5 of the last 6 cup champions did not play a "traditional enforcer" for a single playoff game.

2 of the last 6 (Carolina and Chicago) didnt even have one as a regular during the season, and the wings had Aaron Downey who only played slightly above half the games.

The proof that its a necessity to win just isnt there.

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01-29-2012, 03:34 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Did you read the question.....

If enforcers are important to winning... why do teams regularly scratch their enforcers IN THE PLAYOFFS, when winning is most important?

Are you telling me that every team in the NHL still doesn't understand the importance of having them on the roster in the playoffs when they have used these guys all season.


Example
11 Bruins.... Thornton... healthy scratch for 7 playoff games.
10 Blackhawks.... have no enforcer according to your Eager is not an enforcer statements.
09 Penguins... Godard 71/82 RS games... 0 playoff games.
08 RedWings... Downey 56 RS games.... 0 playoff games..
07 Ducks... Shane Obrien 62 RS games... 0 playoff games... George Parros... 0 playoff games.
06 Canes.... no enforcer... even traded Jesse Boulerice away during the season.
Seems like the champion for truculence reduced the "toughness" of his team this season quite a bit, (half as many fighting majors this season vs. last) replaced it with more skill, and the Leafs' actually have a shot at the playoffs.

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01-29-2012, 06:53 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
I couldn't say no to a Ben Eager in Montreal, it's some good team toughness all season long without being a liability while on the ice.
That's why he's been booted off two teams in the last 12 months specifically for being a liability on the ice, presumably...

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01-29-2012, 06:56 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
It's still amazing to me how so many "veteran" posters here can't or won't acknowledge that's it's the MIX between the toughness and the talent that makes great teams.
Plenty of people are happy to acknowledge this.

The problem you have is that you assume that people are not 'acknowledging' the above when people disagree when you start cheerleading for the acqusition of any lumbering goon that gets waived by another team (as most of them these days do). PL3, for example.

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01-29-2012, 07:00 PM
  #297
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There is a difference between a guy who is tough and can play the game and a pure goon.

There quite simply is no good reason why a pure goon who is a liability n the ice is needed.

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01-29-2012, 07:05 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
There is a difference between a guy who is tough and can play the game and a pure goon.

There quite simply is no good reason why a pure goon who is a liability n the ice is needed.
wher are they? even the tough players who fight have some skill-
give me names

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01-29-2012, 07:08 PM
  #299
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wher are they? even the tough players who fight have some skill-
give me names
Names of what.. guys who will be UFA... I already did that yesterday, check back in the thread.... but it was headlined with guys Prust, Tootoo, Carcillo, and Moen himself.

Again, pure goons don't help you win... which is why 5 of the last 6 Cup Champions have either not had a goon; or have had said goon be a healthy scratch for their entire playoff run.

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01-29-2012, 07:11 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Names of what.. guys who will be UFA... I already did that yesterday, check back in the thread.... but it was headlined with guys Prust, Tootoo, Carcillo, and Moen himself.

Again, pure goons don't help you win... which is why 5 of the last 6 Cup Champions have either not had a goon; or have had said goon be a healthy scratch for their entire playoff run.
which are the pure goos? theyve played hockey there whole lives - its not like someone straight of the street who played a bit as a kid

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