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01-29-2012, 06:11 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
which are the pure goons? theyve played hockey there whole lives - its not like someone straight of the street who played a bit as a kid
pure goons

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01-29-2012, 06:15 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Trading Moen would be foolish unless he wants a big pay raise, which he can't. I don't get it. We need every bit of tuff and grit we can get our hands on. This team is a circus troupe.
I know. Moen has consistently been the same hard working player since he came here. Was a big part of the playoff run, is great on the PK, hits (no seriously, he does), plays great with skilled players (Eller/AK), can play a shutdown role too and does stand up for his teammates. Just keep him. Question should be, how do we get another Moen so that we have a line like he did with Pahlsson and Neidermayer? The only reason to trade him is for a gross overpayment by the other team.

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01-29-2012, 06:17 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
which are the pure goos? theyve played hockey there whole lives - its not like someone straight of the street who played a bit as a kid
A pure goon is a guy who cant handle a regular shift, even on the fourth line without being a liability in the NHL.

Look at Derek Boogard (RIP) his career high in the WHL was a one goal season, he might have been playing his hockey his whole life, but even in junior he knew what role he had to take on if he wanted to make the NHL.

Look at Steve MacIntyre... scored 14 goals in the CEHL (what the hell is that?, beer league?) but the rest of his career is like 1 or 2 goal seasons in jr ,the AHL, ECHL, UHL, CHL, no matter where he went.


But really anyone who is in the NHL and plays less than 5 minutes a night and accumulates a multitude of fighting majors is a goon as far as NHL standards goes. If they aren't bringing enough skill to take a regular shift, and are merely their for their fighting, they might be good beer league guys, but at the NHL level they are a goon.

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01-29-2012, 06:56 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Did you read the question.....

If enforcers are important to winning... why do teams regularly scratch their enforcers IN THE PLAYOFFS, when winning is most important?

Are you telling me that every team in the NHL still doesn't understand the importance of having them on the roster in the playoffs when they have used these guys all season.


Example
11 Bruins.... Thornton... healthy scratch for 7 playoff games.
10 Blackhawks.... have no enforcer according to your Eager is not an enforcer statements.
09 Penguins... Godard 71/82 RS games... 0 playoff games.
08 RedWings... Downey 56 RS games.... 0 playoff games..
07 Ducks... Shane Obrien 62 RS games... 0 playoff games... George Parros... 0 playoff games.
06 Canes.... no enforcer... even traded Jesse Boulerice away during the season.
You are dodging a lot of my points and it shows.

I already told you that you don't need of an enforcer once you are in the playoffs simply because the other teams stopped carrying an enforcer.

Playoff games are not the same. The Bruins could've goon up against the Habs, the Flyers, the Lightnings and the Canucks like they normally do during the regular season but almost nothing happened. Those are the playoffs, not the regular season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
There is a difference between a guy who is tough and can play the game and a pure goon.

There quite simply is no good reason why a pure goon who is a liability n the ice is needed.
A goon is, first, a player that enforces, whatever are his hockey skills. A goon is an enforcer. The days where all the teams carried a player that didn't follow the game are over. Colton Orr, Eric Godard, Donald Brashear, DJ King, Raitis Ivanans or Pierre-Luc Létourneau-Leblond are all playing in the minors now (even Brashear is playing in the LNAH). Kevin Westgarth, Paul Bissonnette, Steve MacIntyre all are scratches now. But there are plenty of goons that can follow the game, take a 5-7 minutes a game shift and not hurt their teams.

Chris Neil easily is a 3rd liner and a good player around the net on the PP.
Mike Rupp easily is a good 4th liner that doesn't bring much offense but that follows the game.
George Parros takes 7 minutes without hurting his team.
Shawn Thornton takes a good 9 minutes per game and is an okay 4th liner.
Krys Barch takes a 4th line shift without hurting his team.
Jared Boll isn't good with the puck but he is a good player on Blue Jackets' penalty killing unit.
Jim Vandermeer is a proven good shutdown/stay at home defenseman.
Same for Matt Carkner.
Deryk Engelland takes a regular shift (12-15 minutes) with the Penguins as their 6th defenseman.
Milan Lucic is one of the best powerforwards in the game.
Cody McCormick is a 4th line centerman that puts up 20pts a year.
Ryane Clowe is one of the best powerforwards in the league also.
John Erskine became over the years a regular 6th or 7th defenseman.

I mean who would you take first? Michael Blunden or Jared Boll? Mathieu Darche or Shawn Thornton?

We in Montreal put 4th liners on the ice that are not going to represent a normal checking line. Is Jared Boll a worst hockey player than Petteri Nokelainen? Is George Parros a worst hockey player than Mathieu Darche? Last year, we signed Alexandre Picard to a contract to be our 7th defenseman, but seriously, would Jim Vandermeer, Deryk Engelland or Matt Carkner have been worst than Picard? Not sure.

After those enforcers, you have another bunch of scrappers that can play the game and that solidify your team's team toughness. Arron Asham, Brandon Prust, Travis Moen, Jamal Mayers, Dan Carcillo, Gregory Campbell, Adam McQuaid, Johnny Boychuk, Zac Rinaldo, Derek Dorsett, Paul Gaustad, Zenon Konopka, etc... after signing one of the enforces above in the post, you sign a couple of the names amongst Ashams and Prusts, and here you have your team toughness.

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01-29-2012, 07:03 PM
  #305
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If an enforcer is valuable, and the first team drops theirs, why doesnt the second team keep their enforcer in the lineup to gain the advantages of intimidation that he supposedly brings?

You still haven't explained it away.... there is an inherent contradiction between the idea that an enforcer has value that leads to wins, and smart hockey people all dropping their enforcers in the playoffs to the pressbox.

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01-29-2012, 07:44 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
If an enforcer is valuable, and the first team drops theirs, why doesnt the second team keep their enforcer in the lineup to gain the advantages of intimidation that he supposedly brings?

You still haven't explained it away.... there is an inherent contradiction between the idea that an enforcer has value that leads to wins, and smart hockey people all dropping their enforcers in the playoffs to the pressbox.
Because the mindset in the playoffs isn't the same than in the regular season. You don't see that many fights and big hits during the playoffs, just like during the international tournaments.

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01-29-2012, 07:58 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
So you admit that when winning is most important, the bullying and intimidation tactics go out the window?

But yet we still hear the argument that these tactics (and not the fact that the Bruins have the best goalie, best defenceman, and deepest offence in the league) are the reasons that they win?
Wow, could you have more nitpicked parts of my post to make up your own facts. I said that the way the game is played during regualr season and playoffs is different. If I use your kind of logic, it would be me saying that you think regular season wins aren't important.. Parros and Godard didn't play in the playoffs, ok, does that mean they were useless during the regular season? Absolutely not.

Paul Mclean, when he got hired by Ottawa, said during the press-conference, and remember that he is a product of DETROIT, that intimidation was still part of the game, and that he welcomed players like Niel, Carkner, Konopka and Smith in his line-up. Lamoriello, probably the best GM in the last 25 years, added both Boulton and Janssen while in Montreal we're drooling of having just Clarkson. Think about that.

My only knock on Moen since we've had him hasn't been the number (or lack of) fights, it's how he's about as agressive as Plekanec when he's playing. I really wished we had Tootoo, a Niel or Rinaldo, a good player that doesn't hit to hit, but hurts in a NASTY way, that's out there to hurt people. That's what I've been hoping of with Andrew Conboy for the last 2 years now. Just like Emelin on thr back-end, we need somebody out there that the opposition looks for on the ice. If anybody starts downgrading those type of players, hockey is not for you...

Quote:
Fighting is a sideshow in today's NHL with the way the instigator rule is. An enforcer who can't play a regular shift, would add nothing to this team.

I don't mind the Moens, the Prusts, the Steve Otts, Chris Neils, etc... but there is zero evidence that having a 2-4 minute per game goon on your team is necessary or even helps your team win..


5 of the last 6 cup champions did not play a "traditional enforcer" for a single playoff game.

2 of the last 6 (Carolina and Chicago) didnt even have one as a regular during the season, and the wings had Aaron Downey who only played slightly above half the games.

The proof that its a necessity to win just isnt there.
Fighting is PART of the show, and I don't know about you, but I watch hockey for entertainment, I don't think there's any other reason, unless you're Cunneyworth or Gauthier...

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01-29-2012, 08:02 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I know. Moen has consistently been the same hard working player since he came here. Was a big part of the playoff run, is great on the PK, hits (no seriously, he does), plays great with skilled players (Eller/AK), can play a shutdown role too and does stand up for his teammates. Just keep him. Question should be, how do we get another Moen so that we have a line like he did with Pahlsson and Neidermayer? The only reason to trade him is for a gross overpayment by the other team.
Simply this, what's the point on trading away Moen...many have been saying that players like Moen come and go, and we can just get another player of his type. Again, what's the point? We're going to trade away Moen only to replace him again? Cool...Moen is already a great fit on our team, most likely won't demand a raise (if he does it can't be much). We should keep him, we don't have many gritty players who are good in many situations.

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01-29-2012, 08:24 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
A pure goon is a guy who cant handle a regular shift, even on the fourth line without being a liability in the NHL.

Look at Derek Boogard (RIP) his career high in the WHL was a one goal season, he might have been playing his hockey his whole life, but even in junior he knew what role he had to take on if he wanted to make the NHL.

Look at Steve MacIntyre... scored 14 goals in the CEHL (what the hell is that?, beer league?) but the rest of his career is like 1 or 2 goal seasons in jr ,the AHL, ECHL, UHL, CHL, no matter where he went.

But really anyone who is in the NHL and plays less than 5 minutes a night and accumulates a multitude of fighting majors is a goon as far as NHL standards goes. If they aren't bringing enough skill to take a regular shift, and are merely their for their fighting, they might be good beer league guys, but at the NHL level they are a goon.


how many majors does he have this season? hes has been dressed in 11 games this season i dont beleive he has had a fight- really does the goon really e xist anymore in the NHL? I dont think so- not enough fighting to make a real goon with all the rules now

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01-29-2012, 10:23 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
how many majors does he have this season? hes has been dressed in 11 games this season i dont beleive he has had a fight- really does the goon really e xist anymore in the NHL? I dont think so- not enough fighting to make a real goon with all the rules now
I agree the goons are going the way of the dinosaur. Yet everytime one of the remaining goons is a UFA or is on waivers, some of the posters here advocate for picking him up and ask, "why can't we have a goon on our fourth line?"

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01-29-2012, 10:42 PM
  #311
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Wow, could you have more nitpicked parts of my post to make up your own facts. I said that the way the game is played during regualr season and playoffs is different. If I use your kind of logic, it would be me saying that you think regular season wins aren't important.. Parros and Godard didn't play in the playoffs, ok, does that mean they were useless during the regular season? Absolutely not.
Define played....
Godard had 2 goals and 4 pts and averaged 4:00 a game in 08-09
Parros played 35 games, and averaged 5:00 per game for the Ducks in 06-07. He had 1 point.

Both were minus players on championship teams, where most of their players finished the season as a plus.

There is a pretty good reason their ***** were stapled to the bench. Other than the odd fight against the other team's goon... they were pretty much useless.


Quote:
Paul Mclean, when he got hired by Ottawa, said during the press-conference, and remember that he is a product of DETROIT, that intimidation was still part of the game, and that he welcomed players like Niel, Carkner, Konopka and Smith in his line-up. Lamoriello, probably the best GM in the last 25 years, added both Boulton and Janssen while in Montreal we're drooling of having just Clarkson. Think about that.
Huge difference between some of those guys.... I'd take Clarkson, Neil, Carkner, Smith, on my lineup in a second. Guys who can play the game and fight are not the same as Konopka, Boulton, and Janssen who are liabilities.

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My only knock on Moen since we've had him hasn't been the number (or lack of) fights, it's how he's about as agressive as Plekanec when he's playing. I really wished we had Tootoo, a Niel or Rinaldo, a good player that doesn't hit to hit, but hurts in a NASTY way, that's out there to hurt people. That's what I've been hoping of with Andrew Conboy for the last 2 years now. Just like Emelin on thr back-end, we need somebody out there that the opposition looks for on the ice. If anybody starts downgrading those type of players, hockey is not for you...
I love the way Emelin hits.

I think Moen or a player like him is necessary for the team going forward. Personally I'd trade him and re-sign him or a similar player on July 1st because I think that we are out of the playoffs; and we might as well take the 2nd rounder he'll provide and then replace him in the offseason. I like him, but with Prust, Tootoo, and a long list of others available this year, I dont think he's irreplaceable.

I'd love another defenceman who is big and mean, and physical on our team. A true top 4 guy who can play 20 plus minutes a game and crush opponents into the boards, protect the front of the net and break up the cycle game.

I have no problems with physicality. I have no problems with toughness. I like all those things and think they are necessary to win.

What I dont believe is necessary to win is a guy who can't play hockey and is only on the team to fight.

Basically I'll take 2 Travis Moens (or his equivalent) on my team any day. Plus an Emelin, and another nasty defender. And all those forwards like Cole, Bourque, Patches, Eller and Kostitsyn, who have the size and throw hits. I love ryan white and can't wait for him to be back.

What I don't think we need is a Parros, Godard, Shelley, Colton Orr, etc... etc.... These guys are a dying breed, and for good reason.



Quote:
Fighting is PART of the show, and I don't know about you, but I watch hockey for entertainment, I don't think there's any other reason, unless you're Cunneyworth or Gauthier...
ALLELUIA!!!

FINALLY WE ESTABLISHED THE TRUTH.

You like to watch fighting... good for you.
Many people like to watch fighting... good for them.

Tell me that.

Personally I dont like fighting.

I dont care if you like it... but don't go telling me that having a goon is necessary to fielding a winning team. Don't go telling me that the Habs lose because we don't have a guy like Georges Laraque anymore. Don't go telling me thats it a necessary component to be a top team in the NHL.

Because there quite simply is no reason to believe its necessary to the game.

You want to see it? Great... tell me that.

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01-29-2012, 11:38 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Commandant
Huge difference between some of those guys.... I'd take Clarkson, Neil, Carkner, Smith, on my lineup in a second. Guys who can play the game and fight are not the same as Konopka, Boulton, and Janssen who are liabilities.
I can agree for Boults and Janssen, but not for Konopka. He is 55% on his faceoffs, is on the first penalty killing unit... he's simply a tougher version of Tom Pyatt. He can skate but he has no offensive talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
Parros played 35 games, and averaged 5:00 per game for the Ducks in 06-07. He had 1 point.

Both were minus players on championship teams, where most of their players finished the season as a plus.
And actually, Parros is a +2 on a team that is dying in the bottom of the western conference. It sometimes simply is a matter of conjuncture. Parros isn't good on the offense but isn't a liability on the other side. I take a George Parros (0.08pt/game) way before a Michael Blunden (0.09pt/game). I take a Jim Vandermeer, a Matt Carkner or a Deryk Engelland miles before a Alexandre Picard, a Jeff Woywitka or a Paul Mara, who all are 6-7-8th Dmen that the Canadiens had or planned to have.

Now, as for Shelley, Orr, Godard... yes they are liabilities. Unlike Brashear, Laraque (in his prime), Probert, Nilan, Thornton, Rupp, Neil, Boll...

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01-30-2012, 05:20 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
I can agree for Boults and Janssen, but not for Konopka. He is 55% on his faceoffs, is on the first penalty killing unit... he's simply a tougher version of Tom Pyatt. He can skate but he has no offensive talent.
He is a liability. The guy takes more minor penalties/minute of ice time than any other player in the league. This leaves your team shorthanded, and hurts far more than it helps.

Quote:
And actually, Parros is a +2 on a team that is dying in the bottom of the western conference. It sometimes simply is a matter of conjuncture. Parros isn't good on the offense but isn't a liability on the other side. I take a George Parros (0.08pt/game) way before a Michael Blunden (0.09pt/game). I take a Jim Vandermeer, a Matt Carkner or a Deryk Engelland miles before a Alexandre Picard, a Jeff Woywitka or a Paul Mara, who all are 6-7-8th Dmen that the Canadiens had or planned to have.
Parros has been a scratch for nearly half of Anaheim's games and even when he does play is limited to under 6:00 per game due to his lack of playing ability.

I take Blunden who has proved capable of a regular shift since Cunneyworth took over every single time over that.

Quote:
Now, as for Shelley, Orr, Godard... yes they are liabilities. Unlike Brashear, Laraque (in his prime), Probert, Nilan, Thornton, Rupp, Neil, Boll...
But yet you pointed at liability type players as reasons that their clubs were, where they are in the standings? Totally ignoring the actually skilled players on those clubs.

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01-30-2012, 09:51 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
He is a liability. The guy takes more minor penalties/minute of ice time than any other player in the league. This leaves your team shorthanded, and hurts far more than it helps.



Parros has been a scratch for nearly half of Anaheim's games and even when he does play is limited to under 6:00 per game due to his lack of playing ability.

I take Blunden who has proved capable of a regular shift since Cunneyworth took over every single time over that.



But yet you pointed at liability type players as reasons that their clubs were, where they are in the standings? Totally ignoring the actually skilled players on those clubs.
let them circle jerk, no need to understand their flawed arguments

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01-30-2012, 10:21 AM
  #315
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let them circle jerk, no need to understand their flawed arguments
How ironic this post is !!

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01-30-2012, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
He is a liability. The guy takes more minor penalties/minute of ice time than any other player in the league. This leaves your team shorthanded, and hurts far more than it helps.
He took many misconducts for fighting twice in the game, and his numbers are looking worst than it actually is. He fights twice, gets 10 minutes for his two fighting majors, and then a 10 minutes misconduct... it gives no PP.

He actually has 3 minors in the last 12 games and 5 minors since the last 21 games.

What the hell are you talking about?? And I have the flawed arguments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
Parros has been a scratch for nearly half of Anaheim's games and even when he does play is limited to under 6:00 per game due to his lack of playing ability.

I take Blunden who has proved capable of a regular shift since Cunneyworth took over every single time over that.
Parros wasn't a scratch, he has been out for a hand injury for a month in october/november, and he has been out for another injury at the end of december for a couple of games.

By the way, look at the ice time of Parros and tell me that he can't take 8 minutes a game. He does it and he does even reach 10 to 12 minutes in some games. You are clueless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
But yet you pointed at liability type players as reasons that their clubs were, where they are in the standings? Totally ignoring the actually skilled players on those clubs.
I ignore their skilled players because I think that we have as much potential as they have. Our players simply do not play like a team. Plekanec is able to put up 70pts by season, Carey Price is able to get a .920% save percentage, Subban has the skills to be a legit 1st Dman, Cammalleri had the skills to be an elite sniper, but they don't play like a TEAM.

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01-30-2012, 03:27 PM
  #317
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Looks like PG is going to sit and wait prior to selling or buying, curious though what people think Moen/Gill in a package to one team could get in return. Could they get dealt to a team like Chicago, Detroit, SJ, Wash (teams who need PK help) for a 1st rd pick if PG were to add a 2nd rd pick? I think maybe Wash could give up their 1st (they also have Colorado's) if they got those two plus a 2nd rd pick. IF they were interested of course.

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01-30-2012, 03:38 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
He took many misconducts for fighting twice in the game, and his numbers are looking worst than it actually is. He fights twice, gets 10 minutes for his two fighting majors, and then a 10 minutes misconduct... it gives no PP.

He actually has 3 minors in the last 12 games and 5 minors since the last 21 games.

What the hell are you talking about?? And I have the flawed arguments?
As Jacques Martin once said... Do your homework.

Last year, Zenon Konopka took 2.0 penalties per 60 minutes of icetime (this stat excludes coincidental penalties where no pp is given). This was 6th worst in the entire NHL for regulars (ie at least 40 games played).

This year, Zenon Konopka takes 2.3 penalties per 60 minutes of ice time. This is 8th worst in the entire NHL for players with at least 20 games played.

The guy is a liability, and is one of the worst guys in the league for putting you on the pk.

Stats per Behindthenet.ca

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...42+43+44+45+46


Quote:
Parros wasn't a scratch, he has been out for a hand injury for a month in october/november, and he has been out for another injury at the end of december for a couple of games.

By the way, look at the ice time of Parros and tell me that he can't take 8 minutes a game. He does it and he does even reach 10 to 12 minutes in some games. You are clueless.
The stats don't lie.
Average Ice Time per game - 6:21

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/stats/.../george-parros

Quote:
I ignore their skilled players because I think that we have as much potential as they have. Our players simply do not play like a team. Plekanec is able to put up 70pts by season, Carey Price is able to get a .920% save percentage, Subban has the skills to be a legit 1st Dman, Cammalleri had the skills to be an elite sniper, but they don't play like a TEAM.
This has nothing to do with the lack of enforcer.

You've also failed to mention that we only have 2 legit top 4 defencemen in Gorges and Subban.

You've also failed to mention that we have no true 2nd line centre.

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01-30-2012, 05:40 PM
  #319
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As Jacques Martin once said... Do your homework.

Last year, Zenon Konopka took 2.0 penalties per 60 minutes of icetime (this stat excludes coincidental penalties where no pp is given). This was 6th worst in the entire NHL for regulars (ie at least 40 games played).

This year, Zenon Konopka takes 2.3 penalties per 60 minutes of ice time. This is 8th worst in the entire NHL for players with at least 20 games played.

The guy is a liability, and is one of the worst guys in the league for putting you on the pk.

Stats per Behindthenet.ca

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...42+43+44+45+46
And how many games does it takes for Konopka to accumulate 60 minutes of play?
At the opposite, Tomas Plekanec takes 1.4 penalties each 60 minutes of play, but how many games does it takes for Plekanec to accumulate 60 minutes of play? 3 games.

Can we ask each players to reach perfection? No. Indiscipline isn't an issue on the Montreal Canadiens and adding a guy that's going to take 2 penalties each 6 games isn't going to change a lot of things. You may say "hey, at the end of the year, it's 25 powerplays where we could allow 12 goals". But we have one of the best penalty killing units and Konopka simply is one of the best at killing penalties. Oh yes, he is way better than Darche and Desharnais at doing it.

Toughness is an issue on the Habs and he is a part of the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
The stats don't lie.
Average Ice Time per game - 6:21

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/stats/.../george-parros
Not bad. 6:21, I take it in a heartbeat. The real liabilities like Orr, MacIntyre and Boogaard were all taking less than that. By the way, the stats do not show that he is a liability for those 6:21 minutes (and they counted the game where he left after the 1st period with a hand injury). If he was that much of liability, he wouldn't take the same amount of minutes than his line partner Rod Pelley. Is Pelley a liability? If yes, they have no reason to keep him since he isn't a goon. but he's not. Like Parros, he doesn't change the way that the game is played, just like Nokelainen, Darche or Blunden.

Anyway, we have Carey Price in front of our net who is a liability for 60 minutes!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
This has nothing to do with the lack of enforcer.

You've also failed to mention that we only have 2 legit top 4 defencemen in Gorges and Subban.

You've also failed to mention that we have no true 2nd line centre.
It has something to do with the lack of enforcer and toughness.
If your name is P.K. Subban, you are chasing for the puck or your now have the puck behind your goalie, but you know that Shawn Thornton or Milan Lucic is about to freightrain you in the corner, what do you do? You do just like Subban, you take the puck away where there is no one without looking to avoid the hit.

Now, if you're Milan Lucic, what do you do if you have the puck behind Tim Thomas, and you have David Desharnais, Brian Gionta, Tomas Plekanec, or even Erik Cole, who is about to freightrain you in the corner? Do you take the puck away like a sissy ass Habs player?

No. You pass it to your teamate because you know that you're never gonna get hurt when playing against the Habs. All what you know is that you can hurt other players.

Only them who have played hockey with contact understands what I'm saying here.

Theory is bullsh1t since it's elaborated by people who think that the equipment prevents you from being hurt on a play. You're the perfect example of that.

By the way, talking about top 4 Dmen, even when we had Markov/Wisniewski, Gorges, Subban, Hamrlik, and Spacek (yes, yes, Spacek), we were not able to make the playoffs before one of the last games of the year.

And for the centremen BS, many teams are way worst. The Hawks even have Dave Bolland on their 2nd line and they are flirting with the first place in the West. In a tougher team, Plekanec was putting up 70pts a year, and Desharnais is on pace for 58pts, which is at LEAST as good as David Krejci's 62pts and Bergeron's 52 and 57pts.

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01-30-2012, 05:57 PM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
And how many games does it takes for Konopka to accumulate 60 minutes of play?
At the opposite, Tomas Plekanec takes 1.4 penalties each 60 minutes of play, but how many games does it takes for Plekanec to accumulate 60 minutes of play? 3 games.
In the same amount of time Tomas Plekanec will have made 10x the number of good plays that Konopka made.

Pleks needs to fix his penalty issue, no doubt.

But its a lot easier to accept 1 PK against per 3 games from a first liner, than it is 1 PK against per 3 games from your fourth line who plays a heck of a lot less.

Quote:
Can we ask each players to reach perfection? No. Indiscipline isn't an issue on the Montreal Canadiens and adding a guy that's going to take 2 penalties each 6 games isn't going to change a lot of things. You may say "hey, at the end of the year, it's 25 powerplays where we could allow 12 goals". But we have one of the best penalty killing units and Konopka simply is one of the best at killing penalties. Oh yes, he is way better than Darche and Desharnais at doing it.

Toughness is an issue on the Habs and he is a part of the answer.
Taking more penalties by one of the most penalized teams in the league is not the answer. And making the discipline problem worse, doesn't help anyone.



Quote:
Not bad. 6:21, I take it in a heartbeat. The real liabilities like Orr, MacIntyre and Boogaard were all taking less than that. By the way, the stats do not show that he is a liability for those 6:21 minutes (and they counted the game where he left after the 1st period with a hand injury). If he was that much of liability, he wouldn't take the same amount of minutes than his line partner Rod Pelley. Is Pelley a liability? If yes, they have no reason to keep him since he isn't a goon. but he's not. Like Parros, he doesn't change the way that the game is played, just like Nokelainen, Darche or Blunden.
The reason he plays 6:21 and not more is that he'd be liability if he did.


Quote:
Anyway, we have Carey Price in front of our net who is a liability for 60 minutes!!


Quote:
It has something to do with the lack of enforcer and toughness.
If your name is P.K. Subban, you are chasing for the puck or your now have the puck behind your goalie, but you know that Shawn Thornton or Milan Lucic is about to freightrain you in the corner, what do you do? You do just like Subban, you take the puck away where there is no one without looking to avoid the hit.

Now, if you're Milan Lucic, what do you do if you have the puck behind Tim Thomas, and you have David Desharnais, Brian Gionta, Tomas Plekanec, or even Erik Cole, who is about to freightrain you in the corner? Do you take the puck away like a sissy ass Habs player?

No. You pass it to your teamate because you know that you're never gonna get hurt when playing against the Habs. All what you know is that you can hurt other players.

Only them who have played hockey with contact understands what I'm saying here.
Thats B.S.

If players are afraid of contact or more willing to initiate contact in the regular sason because of a goon in the lineup. Why is this same intimidation factor no longer present in the playoffs?

And yes, Ive played contact hockey, so don't even start that B.S.


Do you really believe that the same guys who are willing to stand in front of Zdeno Chara's slapshots and block those 100+ MPH heaters, are intimidated by a punch or a body check? Really? This is what people believe?


Quote:
Theory is bullsh1t since it's elaborated by people who think that the equipment prevents you from being hurt on a play. You're the perfect example of that.
No I dont believe that and please stop insulting me...

Your last post you said I didn't know what I was talking about, but then I brought you the actual stats that proved me right, so please stop with these assumptions.


Quote:
By the way, talking about top 4 Dmen, even when we had Markov/Wisniewski, Gorges, Subban, Hamrlik, and Spacek (yes, yes, Spacek), we were not able to make the playoffs before one of the last games of the year.

And for the centremen BS, many teams are way worst. The Hawks even have Dave Bolland on their 2nd line and they are flirting with the first place in the West. In a tougher team, Plekanec was putting up 70pts a year, and Desharnais is on pace for 58pts, which is at LEAST as good as David Krejci's 62pts and Bergeron's 52 and 57pts.
As much as it pains me to admit it, we are not as talented as Boston. No doubt about that

OUr best player is Carey Price who is an excellent goalie. They have Tim Thomas who is the best goalie in the world. We have Budaj as Backup, they have Rask. Goaltending Advantage: Bruins.

You believe PK Subban is a number 1 defenceman.... I'll agree with that, however Zdeno Chara is once again, the Best Defenceman in the world. We have Josh Gorges, Tomas Kaberle, Hal Gill and some rookies.... they have Seidenberg, Corvo, McQuaid, Boychuk, Ference. Advantage: Boston (mainly because of Chara).

Their offence is the deepest in the entire NHL. We cant match it. Advantage Boston.

They are simply a better team than us right now, and it has to do with skill, not just fighting.


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01-30-2012, 07:01 PM
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
But we have one of the best penalty killing units and Konopka simply is one of the best at killing penalties. Oh yes, he is way better than Darche and Desharnais at doing it.
Trying and failing to work out what you meant to type here?

Assuming you don't actually think Konopka is an good penalty killer, which he's not. He averages 42 seconds per game shorthanded for Ottawa this season. Although some of that you could probably attribute to him usually being the one in the box...

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01-30-2012, 08:50 PM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
The reason he plays 6:21 and not more is that he'd be liability if he did.
So, I guess that if Michael Blunden gets an average of 8:09/game, it's because he'd be a liability for the team if he played 11:00 instead? I guess that if Ryan White got 6:21 of average last year in the playoffs, it's because he was a liability for his team?

You know that you have a liable player on the ice when the guy always had the role of an enforcer during his juniors, AHL, or university hockey seasons. Colton Orr has always been a 4th liner during his juniors, just like Derek Boogaard, Darcy Hordichuk, Trevor Gillies, David Koci, Eric Godard, etc.

It's not Parros' case. He does follow the game and doesn't hurt his team. I see him way many more times than you since I follow the Sharks. He's worth way more than Canadiens' Michael Blunden, Sharks' Andrew Murray, Maple Leafs' Philippe Dupuis...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
Thats B.S.

If players are afraid of contact or more willing to initiate contact in the regular sason because of a goon in the lineup. Why is this same intimidation factor no longer present in the playoffs?

And yes, Ive played contact hockey, so don't even start that B.S.

Do you really believe that the same guys who are willing to stand in front of Zdeno Chara's slapshots and block those 100+ MPH heaters, are intimidated by a punch or a body check? Really? This is what people believe?
Aside Josh Gorges, Hal Gill, Zenon Konopka and Ian Lapperiere, I don't know many players that will stand up in front of Chara's slapshot, seriously.

The intimidation factor goes away during the playoffs because the mindset changes. It's probably one of the reasons why Milan Lucic has been deceiving in the last playoffs. How often do you see a big hit during the playoffs? The game changes and is more axed on the puck control. We had Aaron Rome laying Nathan Horton out in a great hit during the finals, but how often do you see that type of plays during the playoffs?? Hell, if it was during the regular season, knowing how the Bruins play, Aaron Rome would've got his head chopped off.

And yes, I believe that many Montreal players are afraid of the corners. If you don't, stop talking sh** on HFBoards when the game is underway and keep your eyes on the players. Subban, Kaberle, Diaz, Weber and Kaberle all are afraid of the corners, just like Brisebois was back then. Gomez is afraid to play along the boards, Eller avoids every situation where he could get hit, just like Cammy (when he was playing here), etc.

In fact, most Habs players piss in their jock-strap almost each times the referee whistles after Price freezes the puck. Look how Subban stays 20ft behind the scrum. And look how there's no response from 4 Habs out of 5, when there are 5 Bruins on 1 Hab. But hey, this is what you sissy ice-soccer fans promote, isn't it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdCh1d4-CdI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
No I dont believe that and please stop insulting me...

Your last post you said I didn't know what I was talking about, but then I brought you the actual stats that proved me right, so please stop with these assumptions.
Your stats proved nothing. You say Parros plays 6:35 per game (average), but what's proving that he is liable on those 6:35 minutes? What's proving that he would be more liable if he played 2 more minutes? Nothing. He is a 4th liner, it's not like if he was gonna play 14 minutes a game on a regular basis. He take shis 6:35 minutes and he shuts his mouth, plays safe and plays tough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
As much as it pains me to admit it, we are not as talented as Boston. No doubt about that

OUr best player is Carey Price who is an excellent goalie. They have Tim Thomas who is the best goalie in the world. We have Budaj as Backup, they have Rask. Goaltending Advantage: Bruins.

You believe PK Subban is a number 1 defenceman.... I'll agree with that, however Zdeno Chara is once again, the Best Defenceman in the world. We have Josh Gorges, Tomas Kaberle, Hal Gill and some rookies.... they have Seidenberg, Corvo, McQuaid, Boychuk, Ference. Advantage: Boston (mainly because of Chara).

Their offence is the deepest in the entire NHL. We cant match it. Advantage Boston.

They are simply a better team than us right now, and it has to do with skill, not just fighting.
Oh, they sure are better. They have 3 lines that can score. And that play tough.. They have 3 good defense pairings. And that play tough.

But what were all of you Habs fans saying at the beggining of this year?... yeah right you know it.

"Oh! We now have Kostitsyn on the 3rd line so we have 3 lines that can score with Desharnais up from the A!" ..... desillusionnal Habs fans.

But... where are the Rangers, for example?
First in the Eastern conference.

Who are their D-men? Del Zotto, Girardi... Stralman... Eminger?... Woywho? Woywitka?... McDonaugh, Staal, Eminger and Sauer?

Right right. Tell me that this is better than Habs' defense, without laughing. I know you say many false things, but I can't believe you'd say that seriously.

Gaborik isn't better than Cole this year with his 39pts, and Brad Richards isn't even better than Plekanec with his 33pts. But wait... oh you see me coming.

They lead in fighting majors, they lead in hits by a quarter mile large margin... and Tortorella contributed to their team toughness with Rupp, Prust, Deveaux, Bickel (oh I forgot that D), Dubinsky, Newbury, Avery and Callahan. And if I wanted to be a dick, I'd add Boyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtacular
Trying and failing to work out what you meant to type here?

Assuming you don't actually think Konopka is an good penalty killer, which he's not. He averages 42 seconds per game shorthanded for Ottawa this season. Although some of that you could probably attribute to him usually being the one in the box...
Konopka > Darche, Noke, Blunden, Desharnais and Eller at killing penalties.

Oh Commandant, BTW, I was trying to put some lightness to the thread with my Carey Price remark.

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01-30-2012, 08:53 PM
  #323
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Konopka better at killing penalties than Eller? You do realize that lars eller is one of the pillars of Montreal's pk which is the best in the league?

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01-30-2012, 08:57 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Konopka better at killing penalties than Eller? You do realize that lars eller is one of the pillars of Montreal's pk which is the best in the league?
I thought that their pillars were Moen and Plekanec. And why do we see Darche and Blunden there?? If Eller is that good, pair him with Z-man.

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01-30-2012, 09:00 PM
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
I thought that their pillars were Moen and Plekanec. And why do we see Darche and Blunden there?? If Eller is that good, pair him with Z-man.
Blunden doesn't get a regular PK shift. Also despite Darche's crappy overall game, he is an effective PKer.

I never said is THE pillar, he is one of the pillars that make the PK successful and considering that its the best in the league, he must be doing a superb job considering he has as many points on the PK as Konopka has this season.

Also nothing in your response tells me why Konopka is a better PKer than Lars.

Also what's up with your bashing of Eller? In another thread you said he's a defensive liability and a bust? Sure.

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