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01-29-2012, 04:05 PM
  #176
ECWHSWI
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So wait...since the last cup winner was bilingual, that means we have to get a bilingual coach?

Your arguments make less and less sense as this thing goes on, and when you get backed into a corner you change the subject. Good luck living in your fantasy world.
you know it's your post I copied right ?

you also know I only changed one word and the year right ?

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01-29-2012, 04:18 PM
  #177
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you know it's your post I copied right ?

you also know I only changed one word and the year right ?
Yes. It made sense when I posted it, and then became completely irrelevant when you changed it.

You're implying that having a French coach is some kind of magical elixir that guarantees success. When the majority of successful coaches in the NHL are English speaking only.

Seriously, this **** isn't complicated. It's logic.

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01-29-2012, 04:21 PM
  #178
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We simply need to sign Vandermeer or Carkner at the D, and Parros or Thornton on the offense.

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01-29-2012, 04:23 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think they'll have very little to say about it. At that point it will be about winning cups. And when you're winning, a lot of this kind of stuff fades into the background.

And I'm not even suggesting we specifically dump a bilingual guy for an Anglo if and when we become contenders btw. I'm just saying that if a top coach who didn't speak French was available and we felt (for whatever reason) that we HAD to have him, then people aren't really going to care as much if we're in the middle of a cup run.
Really? Ditch the hard working French coach when he's on the cusp of winning it all? Do you REALLY think that will be okay with people? I wouldn't even be happy about it, can you imagine how all the French nationalists would take it? You're nuts if you think the people will just accept it.

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Again though, that wasn't the situation we found ourselves in. We were strugging and we ditched an experienced Francophone for a rookie Anglo. That caused some friction and then PG went out and poured gasoline on the fire by the way he handled things. And then to make matters worse, this went on even longer because RC couldn't buy a win. Add it all up and it was a freakin' mess. One that could've been avoided if we had people at the top who were smart enough to know that this was coming and actually prepared for it.
Well this is obvious, but the issue has never been about his rookie status, it's been about the language. Stringing together some wins would have remedied the problem, but it wouldn't have solved it.

The language thing was an issue long before the RC fiasco and everyone knows it. Before it was just Habs fans that were wise to it, but now the whole league knows it.

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01-29-2012, 04:26 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
Yes. It made sense when I posted it, and then became completely irrelevant when you changed it.

You're implying that having a French coach is some kind of magical elixir that guarantees success. When the majority of successful coaches in the NHL are English speaking only.

Seriously, this **** isn't complicated. It's logic.
Nope.

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01-29-2012, 05:14 PM
  #181
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'Cause it is pretty clear that there's a either positive bias for coaches other than those francos, or a negative bias for them. How many coaches from the Q have coached Team Canada? Who are in charge in this league in most crucial positions? I guess they don't do that on purpose, but when you have to choose between a guy you know and one you don't, you usually go with the one you know. Thank god Yzerman didn't go with that method and went for Boucher. Thank god Claude Noel clealry didn't follow that method and called Pascal Vincent (who I am not a big fan of, yet, not the point). But usually, you call your friends. That's what the Habs have been doing. And I do think the only reasons why all those ex-habs have jobs in the NHL. Also, as much as you have good stories about coaches from the AHL, you do have just as many bad ones, and this year alone. No need to go look for the past years. Note, I'm not saying that the AHL is not a good school, of course it is. But it shouldn't stop you from making a decision IF others things can be considered, like Roy for example with the fact that he was a big time NHL'er, proven winner, coach nonetheless with a good record etc...
With regards to the bias of the AHL - not really relevant and, to be honest, I have zero interest in wading into that area of discussion. It's not intended to be an insult rather witness the controversy whipped up by calling the whole situation around the Canadiens a circus and consider what will happen when we start talking about the existence of a bias against francophones in Canada.

Should lack of an AHL background prevent the recruitment of coach? On the surface no, of course not. If you've got some credentials elsewhere than that's worth discussing. However, although you may have plenty of bad stories of coaches coming out of the AHL the fact remains that the very best coaches in the NHL today - the ones that win the awards (all except one since 2000), the ones that win Stanley Cups (all since 2002) have coached in the AHL. To be brief - all the good stories come out of the AHL.

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Yet, the "very best" is way too suggestive. You just cannot look at a trophy winner and declare him the very best. Boucher won that trophy and people are bashing him like there's no tomorrow. Who else is having a succesful year right now in the NHL and won that trophy? Dineen? Sure. Julien, obviously. Like I keep saying Julien was 1 goal away from being fired for a 3rd time. That's how suggestive it is. See Cunneyworth was a head coach for way more time in the AHL than Hynes was and he also won the trophy and yet, language aside, he is getting more heat than Martin did. We will see how it will play out for the rest....but it doesn't look good solely on a coaching point of view.
Right. And Cunneyworth might not be the man for the job. Same with Hynes. Julien wasn't when he was here and, frankly, I don't consider Julien to be a very good coach (he's mostly very lucky and blessed with a great goalie and an exceptional number one defenseman). My point is that recruiting from the AHL seems to be the way to go and furthermore, recruiting only bilingual candidiates from the AHL (or from anywhere, really) narrows your pool of potential coaches to a very small list.

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And that's the funny part. If I would have told you to replace Martin by Hitchcock, I would have been laughed at like there's no tomorrow. Having the best coach is based on a good guy in the right environment, with the right set of players. Hitchcock in Montreal would NOT mean having the same kind of success. See, some people believe that finally the right coach for this average team was Martin and he has proven that he had done the maximum with that bunch. We will see soon if they were right. I personally believe that we are putting too much emphasis on the coach. And that as good as some are, you are often just as good as your players are. Doesn't mean that you should hire Jean Perron though, I agree.
And as I have said - if the coach doesn't matter then hiring a bilingual coach is not a bad thing. After all if his primary duties are to serve as a figurehead of leadership then handling the media becomes a much more important component of the job. I don't buy that though. I think that the team can, if they make it a priority, hire a Babcock or a Bylsma. But they have to be willing to look for him. Looking only at bilingual coaches makes it far less likely that we'll find him.

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01-29-2012, 05:51 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by idk View Post
With regards to the bias of the AHL - not really relevant and, to be honest, I have zero interest in wading into that area of discussion. It's not intended to be an insult rather witness the controversy whipped up by calling the whole situation around the Canadiens a circus and consider what will happen when we start talking about the existence of a bias against francophones in Canada.

Should lack of an AHL background prevent the recruitment of coach? On the surface no, of course not. If you've got some credentials elsewhere than that's worth discussing. However, although you may have plenty of bad stories of coaches coming out of the AHL the fact remains that the very best coaches in the NHL today - the ones that win the awards (all except one since 2000), the ones that win Stanley Cups (all since 2002) have coached in the AHL. To be brief - all the good stories come out of the AHL.



Right. And Cunneyworth might not be the man for the job. Same with Hynes. Julien wasn't when he was here and, frankly, I don't consider Julien to be a very good coach (he's mostly very lucky and blessed with a great goalie and an exceptional number one defenseman). My point is that recruiting from the AHL seems to be the way to go and furthermore, recruiting only bilingual candidiates from the AHL (or from anywhere, really) narrows your pool of potential coaches to a very small list.



And as I have said - if the coach doesn't matter
then hiring a bilingual coach is not a bad thing. After all if his primary duties are to serve as a figurehead of leadership then handling the media becomes a much more important component of the job. I don't buy that though. I think that the team can, if they make it a priority, hire a Babcock or a Bylsma. But they have to be willing to look for him. Looking only at bilingual coaches makes it far less likely that we'll find him.
dont know why you keep bringing that, no one ever said that...


what have been said though, is that once you take out the best - who will NOT be available - there isnt much of a difference in talent...

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01-29-2012, 05:56 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
Really? Ditch the hard working French coach when he's on the cusp of winning it all? Do you REALLY think that will be okay with people? I wouldn't even be happy about it, can you imagine how all the French nationalists would take it? You're nuts if you think the people will just accept it.



Well this is obvious, but the issue has never been about his rookie status, it's been about the language. Stringing together some wins would have remedied the problem, but it wouldn't have solved it.

The language thing was an issue long before the RC fiasco and everyone knows it. Before it was just Habs fans that were wise to it, but now the whole league knows it.
french or english, if our (next) GM is to replace the coach who is about to bring us a cup... I want that GM fired, yesterday. You ? only if he speak french I guess.



of course everyone knows, guys like you take every single opportunity they have to bring the subject back up...

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01-29-2012, 06:09 PM
  #184
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Nope.
Then why do you keep bringing up the successes of CJ and AV and past French coaches?

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01-29-2012, 06:14 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
french or english, if our (next) GM is to replace the coach who is about to bring us a cup... I want that GM fired, yesterday. You ? only if he speak french I guess.
bahaha.

What's wrong with you? Can you not read? How many times do I have to say that I don't have a problem with having a French coach? Did you not read the part where I said I hoped they would hire Patrick Roy as the next coach?

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of course everyone knows, guys like you take every single opportunity they have to bring the subject back up...
Wow, I'm flattered. You think my limited internet postings on a Montreal Canadiens message board has the power to reach EVERYONE in the NHL? I appreciate it, but you're WAY off base.

I'm of course talking about certain members of the separatist party who made a big stink about the whole thing in the first place, turning what Habs fans have known for years into common knowledge for everyone else working in hockey.

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01-29-2012, 06:41 PM
  #186
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bahaha.

What's wrong with you? Can you not read? How many times do I have to say that I don't have a problem with having a French coach? Did you not read the part where I said I hoped they would hire Patrick Roy as the next coach?



Wow, I'm flattered. You think my limited internet postings on a Montreal Canadiens message board has the power to reach EVERYONE in the NHL? I appreciate it, but you're WAY off base.

I'm of course talking about certain members of the separatist party who made a big stink about the whole thing in the first place, turning what Habs fans have known for years into common knowledge for everyone else working in hockey.
not at all, I think you're an insignificant (sp?) poster actually and not very smart... and that's why I said LIKE you, not you.

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01-29-2012, 06:42 PM
  #187
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Then why do you keep bringing up the successes of CJ and AV and past French coaches?
Dont you know, I'm promoting those two separatist coaches...



by the way, I have no problem whatsoever talking about separatism/federalism and language...

So, really, guys... keep bringing it up every chances you get... dont come whining it's too much though.

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01-29-2012, 08:33 PM
  #188
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This is the MOST overated lie. NOBODY ever demanded any player to learn and speak at least a bit of French. Unless he is the Captain or the head coach..
I respect you because over the years you have been a good poster, but, you shot yourself in the foot here.

NOBODY but the captain, NOBODY but the head coach. In Russia, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. it is ok for the coach not to speak the local language as many Canadians have coached there without a scandal, but here . . .

Anyway, when I mentioned language issues, there are more than just fans and media making it an issue. I also mean, getting your kids into English schools, everyday living (I know I'll blasted for that one).

Why even face the question when you don't have to?

There is a reason even Quebecois players don't want to play here.

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01-29-2012, 09:15 PM
  #189
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I respect you because over the years you have been a good poster, but, you shot yourself in the foot here.

NOBODY but the captain, NOBODY but the head coach. In Russia, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. it is ok for the coach not to speak the local language as many Canadians have coached there without a scandal, but here . . .

Anyway, when I mentioned language issues, there are more than just fans and media making it an issue. I also mean, getting your kids into English schools, everyday living (I know I'll blasted for that one).

Why even face the question when you don't have to?

There is a reason even Quebecois players don't want to play here.
He didn't shoot himself in the foot. Topic is that there is no circus as far as the language is concerned, IF you are not the captain and the head coach. No circus whatsoever. And even this actual captain, pretty sure nobody will keep asking him when he's going to speak 'cause everybody knows that he's gone when his contract will be up. It's not like a guy who was in the organization fore 15+ years. And the coach, well it is what is. Period.l

Now, Québécois who don't want to play here...well for starters you can't generalize. Pretty sure we don't know if EVERY Quebecer don't want to play here. But for every Quebecer who is known of not liking it here well it is quite obvious. This organization has seen less and less quebecers in that team. And needless to say, less Quebec great players as well. So when a Quebecer is almost seen as the Franco Quebec saviour, well how hard is it to understand really? And then you add how average we've been over the years, and then it takes a whole lot of bad faith to not understand why Quebecers AND others don't want to play here. Forget everything, just build a winning team and see how people wouldn't want to be here.

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01-29-2012, 09:15 PM
  #190
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not at all, I think you're an insignificant (sp?) poster actually and not very smart... and that's why I said LIKE you, not you.
So, we the people, who don't want to compromise the team we cheer/pay for, are the ones making it known throughout the hockey world? Not the people protesting outside the Bell Centre? Not the ******** in the PQ? That's funny, cause I haven't seen any news articles that say anything to the effect of "Internet Message Board dudes keep bringing up Francophone coach in Montreal"

I'm pretty sure its not opinions of "insignificant" message board posters that's got the whole hockey world talking. Actually, I KNOW it's not.

You can think I'm not very smart. Doesn't matter much to me though since you're the one who just can't seem to grasp the point of ANYTHING I've been saying this whole time. It's almost as though I've been talking to a wall.

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01-29-2012, 09:23 PM
  #191
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Detroit, Michigan.

2nd highest violent crime rate in the United States.

GM -- Ken Holland
Coach -- Mike Babcock

UFA's sign in Detroit if Ken Holland thinks that they are players who can succeed in their system.

Again, the reason that UFA's shy away from Montreal is not the language, the media or the fans.

No, the reason UFA's shy away from Montreal is Gainey/Gauthier's idea about how the game of hockey is played in Montreal.

Nothing more , nothing less.

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01-29-2012, 09:42 PM
  #192
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So, we the people, who don't want to compromise the team we cheer/pay for, are the ones making it known throughout the hockey world? Not the people protesting outside the Bell Centre? Not the ******** in the PQ? That's funny, cause I haven't seen any news articles that say anything to the effect of "Internet Message Board dudes keep bringing up Francophone coach in Montreal"

I'm pretty sure its not opinions of "insignificant" message board posters that's got the whole hockey world talking. Actually, I KNOW it's not.

You can think I'm not very smart. Doesn't matter much to me though since you're the one who just can't seem to grasp the point of ANYTHING I've been saying this whole time. It's almost as though I've been talking to a wall.
pretty easy actually, can sum it up in two sentences
1. the ONLY focus of PG is to find a french speaking coach, nothing else matters to him.
2. anyone who'd like the coach to be bilingual is a separatist.

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01-29-2012, 09:43 PM
  #193
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Detroit, Michigan.

2nd highest violent crime rate in the United States.

GM -- Ken Holland
Coach -- Mike Babcock

UFA's sign in Detroit if Ken Holland thinks that they are players who can succeed in their system.

Again, the reason that UFA's shy away from Montreal is not the language, the media or the fans.

No, the reason UFA's shy away from Montreal is Gainey/Gauthier's idea about how the game of hockey is played in Montreal.

Nothing more , nothing less.
Gill, Moen, Spacek, Gionta, Cole, Cammy, Campoli beg to differ...

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01-29-2012, 09:48 PM
  #194
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Really? Ditch the hard working French coach when he's on the cusp of winning it all? Do you REALLY think that will be okay with people? I wouldn't even be happy about it, can you imagine how all the French nationalists would take it? You're nuts if you think the people will just accept it.
First off I didn't say anything about a French coach... I said bilingual. Secondly, I said that IF it was a circumstance where they had a coach that they felt would put them over the top with a good club then yeah, I don't think it's going to be a big deal.

As has been noted by Whitesnake, Julien was one goal away from being fired. He's absolutely right about that too. If we assembled a contending team and then had multiple quick eliminations in the playoffs, our coach would be fired too. And if that point there was an Anglo who (for whatever reason) we felt would put us over the top... then yeah, I don't think it's going to be a big deal. The seperatists will try to make a big deal out of it but what else is new? They're always trying to stir up crap anyway...

I just don't think that it would be a big deal in Montreal if they hired a guy like Babcock if we had a club that was close to a cup.
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Well this is obvious, but the issue has never been about his rookie status, it's been about the language. Stringing together some wins would have remedied the problem, but it wouldn't have solved it.

The language thing was an issue long before the RC fiasco and everyone knows it. Before it was just Habs fans that were wise to it, but now the whole league knows it.
It's both. The whole thing was a disaster. I don't see how anyone could argue against this. If we'd hired Babcock there might have been some blowback but a rookie? Why?

Again though, I don't see why you hire an Anglo only right now (even if he's experienced) with the team we have. No matter who coaches it, we're going to be a mediocre club. The fact that we hired an Anglo with no experience coaching an NHL team was absolutely stupid. It's one thing to hire an Anglo who's going to put you over the top, it's another thing to hire a guy for mop up duty. Makes no sense to me at all.

And for the record, as I said earlier... I'm totally fine with a bilingual coach. I think they should go that route for as long as it makes sense. There IS a big enough pool of these guys out there and we can and should take advantage of it. IF somewhere down the line there's a coach that we feel we just HAVE to have in order to win... so be it. But that's unlikely anyway and we need to be contenders first.

BTW, back to the topic... if this thread doesn't underscore one of the issues that FA's will have in coming here, I don't know what does. High taxes, language issues, media circus... that's all bad news.

Again though, if we had a winning team then it would be overlooked. Many top players out there are just looking to win a cup. If you built it they WILL come.
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Detroit, Michigan.

2nd highest violent crime rate in the United States.

GM -- Ken Holland
Coach -- Mike Babcock

UFA's sign in Detroit if Ken Holland thinks that they are players who can succeed in their system.

Again, the reason that UFA's shy away from Montreal is not the language, the media or the fans.

No, the reason UFA's shy away from Montreal is Gainey/Gauthier's idea about how the game of hockey is played in Montreal.

Nothing more , nothing less.
I think you're partially right. For some it's about winning cups. For others it's about dollars and other things. As I said above though, if we had some contending teams we'd be more successful at being able to attract big FAs.

Personally though, I don't really care right now anyways. We shouldn't be building via FAs anyway. We should be building through the draft. The FAs should come at the end. We just keep trying to do things backwards.


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01-29-2012, 10:01 PM
  #195
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pretty easy actually, can sum it up in two sentences
1. the ONLY focus of PG is to find a french speaking coach, nothing else matters to him.
No, winning also matters. But speaking French will be the number one priority. Anyone who denies this is a fool.

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2. anyone who'd like the coach to be bilingual is a separatist.
Never said that, but the majority probably are.

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01-29-2012, 10:18 PM
  #196
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No, winning also matters. But speaking French will be the number one priority. Anyone who denies this is a fool.



Never said that, but the majority probably are.
Please, show me... really, not A priority, but priority #1... someone from the Org must have said this right...


You're saying it now.

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01-29-2012, 10:19 PM
  #197
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Gill, Moen, Spacek, Gionta, Cole, Cammy, Campoli beg to differ...
No offense to any of the players listed above but I am talking about a little bit more "elite" player.

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01-29-2012, 10:21 PM
  #198
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No offense to any of the players listed above but I am talking about a little bit more "elite" player.
wether they're elite or not doesnt change the fact they were all signed by Gainey or Gauthier.

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01-29-2012, 10:22 PM
  #199
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First off I didn't say anything about a French coach... I said bilingual. Secondly, I said that IF it was a circumstance where they had a coach that they felt would put them over the top with a good club then yeah, I don't think it's going to be a big deal.

As has been noted by Whitesnake, Julien was one goal away from being fired. He's absolutely right about that too. If we assembled a contending team and then had multiple quick eliminations in the playoffs, our coach would be fired too. And if that point there was an Anglo who (for whatever reason) we felt would put us over the top... then yeah, I don't think it's going to be a big deal. The seperatists will try to make a big deal out of it but what else is new? They're always trying to stir up crap anyway...

I just don't think that it would be a big deal in Montreal if they hired a guy like Babcock if we had a club that was close to a cup.
I guess it depends on how you define the term "contender." Personally, I don't think a team that gets eliminated early, despite a very strong regular season (the Capitals, the Bruins before last year) can be considered a team that's on the cusp of winning it all. I'm thinking more along the lines of a Vancouver type situation. If we were in there shoes, and we fired the bilingual/French coach in the offseason to replace him, I think there WOULD be an uproar.

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It's both. The whole thing was a disaster. I don't see how anyone could argue against this. If we'd hired Babcock there might have been some blowback but a rookie? Why?

Again though, I don't see why you hire an Anglo only right now (even if he's experienced) with the team we have. No matter who coaches it, we're going to be a mediocre club. The fact that we hired an Anglo with no experience coaching an NHL team was absolutely stupid. It's one thing to hire an Anglo who's going to put you over the top, it's another thing to hire a guy for mop up duty. Makes no sense to me at all.

And for the record, as I said earlier... I'm totally fine with a bilingual coach. I think they should go that route for as long as it makes sense. There IS a big enough pool of these guys out there and we can and should take advantage of it. IF somewhere down the line there's a coach that we feel we just HAVE to have in order to win... so be it. But that's unlikely anyway and we need to be contenders first.
I don't disagree with you're saying generally here. I've said multiple times that I have nothing against hiring a bilingual/French coach, despite what ECWHSI would have you believe.

I've actually said a few times that we should get the RIGHT coach, and not necessarily the BEST coach. Which to me, means a coach that you can build this a winning team with. A guy who's good with young players particularly since I think the Habs should at least do a retooling (they probably won't though, since the race for 9th seems to be on) Carlyle may be able to coach a winner, but if he doesn't fit the team (the TEAM, not the media clowns) then we should go elsewhere, regardless of NHL experience.

I don't see why you wouldn't want to invest in finding a coach who will be in it for the long haul. Building a contender and then ditching him for someone else sends the wrong message if you ask me. Find a guy the players can grow with, one that the players will play for.

I know there's a lot of coaches to choose from. But like I said, if were going for a rookie from the Q, I want him to be someone that can grow with the team. The ideal candidate might be in the OHL but he'll never even get a look, which is just plain foolish to me.

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BTW, back to the topic... if this thread doesn't underscore one of the issues that FA's will have in coming here, I don't know what does. High taxes, language issues, media circus... that's all bad news.
True. I never said it was just the language issue. I think it was kind of a secret to how big a deal it could be. The fiasco with RC has made it pretty clear to everyone in the hockey world now, though.

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01-29-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Please, show me... really, not A priority, but priority #1... someone from the Org must have said this right...
Logic. I've already explained it but you jsut don't get it. Here it is, one last time.

Gauthier saying bilingualism is important+the **** show surrounding RC=better hire a French coach.

Since you can only take everything for its literal sense, I don't blame you for being confused. He may not have said, "LANGUAGE WILL BE OUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY" but its implied to anyone who's ever spent five minutes out in the real world.

After the fiasco, he WILL NOT be hiring a coach that isn't bilingual. There's absolutely ZERO chance that the next coach will be English speaking only. ZERO.

Therefore, he WILL NOT be looking at any candidates from the OHL, WHL or most AHL teams. Why? Because as I already stated, he WILL NOT HIRE AN ENGLISH ONLY COACH. And why won't he hire an English speaking coach? Because of all the trouble he cause the last time he did.


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You're saying it now.
lol

I said most. Not all.

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