HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Will The Circus Scare Off UFAs

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-29-2012, 11:30 PM
  #201
seanlinden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maliki2 View Post
It's not just here that there is a circus. Just look at what happened with Tim Thomas. The whole league is full of drama.
In all fairness, the Bruins handled that situation pretty well. Of course it was going to cause a stir when Thomas refused to go, but they came right out and said something to the tune of "It's his choice, not necessarily reflective of the Bruins organization, but what we care about is winning".

As to the original question, you'd really have to question why a non-french free agent would want to come to Montreal. It used to be the opportunity to win, but that's really not the case anymore.

Like others have mentioned, the weather is crap, you have to deal with french people, the taxes are high, the media and fans are vicious and bi-polar. Sure, it's a fishbowl (which is great when you're winning), but players could go to Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh or Detroit and be in a very similar fishbowl, except have a better chance at winning (for the most part).

seanlinden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2012, 11:36 PM
  #202
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,518
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Detroit, Michigan.

2nd highest violent crime rate in the United States.

GM -- Ken Holland
Coach -- Mike Babcock

UFA's sign in Detroit if Ken Holland thinks that they are players who can succeed in their system.

Again, the reason that UFA's shy away from Montreal is not the language, the media or the fans.

No, the reason UFA's shy away from Montreal is Gainey/Gauthier's idea about how the game of hockey is played in Montreal.

Nothing more , nothing less.
UFA sign onto WINNING TEAMS. Detroit has been at the top for a long time and good players coming from cellar dwellers want a shot at winning the cup. If they see we hired some clown coach on the sole basis that he speaks a certain language while avoiding an excellent one that doesn't odds are good we will be laughed at.

So ya lets put idiotic restrictions on who we hire because winning isn't the most important thing here.

OneSharpMarble is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2012, 11:38 PM
  #203
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
I guess it depends on how you define the term "contender." Personally, I don't think a team that gets eliminated early, despite a very strong regular season (the Capitals, the Bruins before last year) can be considered a team that's on the cusp of winning it all. I'm thinking more along the lines of a Vancouver type situation. If we were in there shoes, and we fired the bilingual/French coach in the offseason to replace him, I think there WOULD be an uproar.
Detroit assembled contending teams and were regular early season exits throughout the 90s. They were considered a cup caliber team who were huge chokers and should've been better than they were. Then they went on to make the cup finals in '95 one season after getting Scotty Bowman. Then they went on to win multiple cups.

Washington is actually a really good parallel. Only difference though is that they seem to have hit the rails this season and for some reason OV has forgotten how to be a superstar. But that's a good comparable team for Detroit in the early 90s. Great talent, would do well in the regular seaosn and then would get bounced in the playoffs...
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
I don't disagree with you're saying generally here. I've said multiple times that I have nothing against hiring a bilingual/French coach, despite what ECWHSI would have you believe.
I have no idea what ECWHSI would have me believe. I've had his off topic emoticon filled one liners on ignore for a while now so don't bother asking me what I think of his posts.

As for me, I think we SHOULD have a bilingual coach. It just makes sense. Lots of French fans and a big enough pool of good coaches to choose from. Why wouldn't you want a bilingual guy who can communicate with the fans?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
I've actually said a few times that we should get the RIGHT coach, and not necessarily the BEST coach. Which to me, means a coach that you can build this a winning team with. A guy who's good with young players particularly since I think the Habs should at least do a retooling (they probably won't though, since the race for 9th seems to be on) Carlyle may be able to coach a winner, but if he doesn't fit the team (the TEAM, not the media clowns) then we should go elsewhere, regardless of NHL experience.

I don't see why you wouldn't want to invest in finding a coach who will be in it for the long haul. Building a contender and then ditching him for someone else sends the wrong message if you ask me. Find a guy the players can grow with, one that the players will play for.

I know there's a lot of coaches to choose from. But like I said, if were going for a rookie from the Q, I want him to be someone that can grow with the team. The ideal candidate might be in the OHL but he'll never even get a look, which is just plain foolish to me.
Like I said, there are multiple guys who I think would be good enough to do this. I see no reason to go to the OHL and get a rookie Anglo when we can get bilingual guys to do the same job. If it was for a guy like Hitchcock... okay, I can sort of understand that at least. Hitch is a vet who's shown that he can actually improve a team's fortunes. If we really HAD to have a guy who plays a super defensive system then you can't really do any better. Other than a case like that though, just go with a bilingual guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
True. I never said it was just the language issue. I think it was kind of a secret to how big a deal it could be. The fiasco with RC has made it pretty clear to everyone in the hockey world now, though.
New management and a winning team will make potential FAs forget about this in a hurry. But as long as PG is still in the catbird seat, yes this fiasco will remain top of mind with anybody wanting to come here.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2012, 11:44 PM
  #204
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Detroit, Michigan.

2nd highest violent crime rate in the United States.

GM -- Ken Holland
Coach -- Mike Babcock

UFA's sign in Detroit if Ken Holland thinks that they are players who can succeed in their system.

Again, the reason that UFA's shy away from Montreal is not the language, the media or the fans.

No, the reason UFA's shy away from Montreal is Gainey/Gauthier's idea about how the game of hockey is played in Montreal.

Nothing more , nothing less.
True, but I think another major factor is that the team's survival has hinged on the necessity for getting free agents to COME to Montreal. When it came to entering into discussions with good players that the team developed (Koivu, Markov, Plekanec) it would seem that signing the player is not that difficult. Getting players to come work for the circus is a lot harder than signing players that grew up at the circus. The key for success is for the circus to develop more talent.

I've always said if the team drafts and develops some a-class elite players almost all troubles will go away. You can focus on treating those players well, making them a priority, and snap the other pieces around them to get where you want to go.

When your development program (and policies about dealing with/trading away youth) is working well harvesting and retaining great players is easy. It's when you need to sign 2-5 players as UFA's to stay competitive that you get into problems. The market is weak.

When you develop your own talent your organization also develop loyalty, and that's the key to success.

I think this team needs it's Blackhawk or Oiler moment where it has a group of great players growing together within the organization at the same time. If they're treated well they will easily be retained and free agency becomes less vital

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2012, 11:48 PM
  #205
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
True, but I think another major factor is that the team's survival has hinged on the necessity for getting free agents to COME to Montreal. When it came to entering into discussions with good players that the team developed (Koivu, Markov, Plekanec) it would seem that signing the player is not that difficult. Getting players to come work for the circus is a lot harder than signing players that grew up at the circus. The key for success is for the circus to develop more talent.

I've always said if the team drafts and develops some a-class elite players almost all troubles will go away. You can focus on treating those players well, making them a priority, and snap the other pieces around them to get where you want to go.

When your development program (and policies about dealing with/trading away youth) is working well harvesting and retaining great players is easy. It's when you need to sign 2-5 players as UFA's to stay competitive that you get into problems. The market is weak.

When you develop your own talent your organization also develop loyalty, and that's the key to success.

I think this team needs it's Blackhawk or Oiler moment where it has a group of great players growing together within the organization at the same time. If they're treated well they will easily be retained and free agency becomes less vita
The other thing is the perception is reality part of things.

The guys who grew up in the system get to learn the reality... that its only the coach asked to learn french; that the players aren't pressured about it, that the circus isn't as bad as it seems.

Those outside the organization see things a whole different way, and true or not, they come to believe that things are a lot worse than they are.

When it comes to signing the outside UFA, that Perception becomes the Reality, and overshadows the real facts.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2012, 11:49 PM
  #206
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
Logic. I've already explained it but you jsut don't get it. Here it is, one last time.

Gauthier saying bilingualism is important+the **** show surrounding RC=better hire a French coach.

Since you can only take everything for its literal sense, I don't blame you for being confused. He may not have said, "LANGUAGE WILL BE OUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY" but its implied to anyone who's ever spent five minutes out in the real world.

After the fiasco, he WILL NOT be hiring a coach that isn't bilingual. There's absolutely ZERO chance that the next coach will be English speaking only. ZERO.

Therefore, he WILL NOT be looking at any candidates from the OHL, WHL or most AHL teams. Why? Because as I already stated, he WILL NOT HIRE AN ENGLISH ONLY COACH. And why won't he hire an English speaking coach? Because of all the trouble he cause the last time he did.




lol

I said most. Not all.
It's actually logic only to those who wants it to be true, you obviously never had to hire anyone for a job so I dont blame you for thinking that way...


care to name those who fits both criteria (wants a bilingual coach AND are separatists)...

ECWHSWI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2012, 11:53 PM
  #207
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The other thing is the perception is reality part of things.

The guys who grew up in the system get to learn the reality... that its only the coach asked to learn french; that the players aren't pressured about it, that the circus isn't as bad as it seems.

Those outside the organization see things a whole different way, and true or not, they come to believe that things are a lot worse than they are.

When it comes to signing the outside UFA, that Perception becomes the Reality, and overshadows the real facts.
sometimes I wonder if they do know, I mean...

Connie who wants to become a HC, spent time in Hamilton and was also Asst coach in Mtl... and never bother learning french...

Muller has been an asst coach in Montreal for a while and never bothered learning french either...

ECWHSWI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2012, 11:58 PM
  #208
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The other thing is the perception is reality part of things.

The guys who grew up in the system get to learn the reality... that its only the coach asked to learn french; that the players aren't pressured about it, that the circus isn't as bad as it seems.

Those outside the organization see things a whole different way, and true or not, they come to believe that things are a lot worse than they are.

When it comes to signing the outside UFA, that Perception becomes the Reality, and overshadows the real facts.
Precisely, but it cuts both ways. Management and fans have to be in touch with reality too, and realize this team is a long way off from being the type of team we want it to be.

The situation is not as good as management would have us believe it is, and the situation is not as bleak as outsiders would have us believe it to be.

Drafting a marquis player is a game changer, the team needs that for many things including credibility.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 12:07 AM
  #209
WeeBey
Registered User
 
WeeBey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
It's actually logic only to those who wants it to be true, you obviously never had to hire anyone for a job so I dont blame you for thinking that way...
Nah, I don't want it to be true, I'd rather see the opposite. I've just interacted with enough human beings, and have a generally good hold on reality to know that it's most likely the truth. You can keep living in your fantasy world if you want though.

Quote:
care to name those who fits both criteria (wants a bilingual coach AND are separatists)...
ahahaha

Is this guy for real?

WeeBey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 12:15 AM
  #210
WeeBey
Registered User
 
WeeBey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Detroit assembled contending teams and were regular early season exits throughout the 90s. They were considered a cup caliber team who were huge chokers and should've been better than they were. Then they went on to make the cup finals in '95 one season after getting Scotty Bowman. Then they went on to win multiple cups.

Washington is actually a really good parallel. Only difference though is that they seem to have hit the rails this season and for some reason OV has forgotten how to be a superstar. But that's a good comparable team for Detroit in the early 90s. Great talent, would do well in the regular seaosn and then would get bounced in the playoffs...
Yes, I know this. But that's not what I would consider a team that's close to winning the cup. If you're a contender but a choker then you're not on the cusp.

Vancouver is on the brink in my opinion. Finals last year, and eliminated by a very good team the year before that. If we were in that situation and canned the bilingual coach for an Anglo one, I'm sure there would be people stirring **** up.

Really, I think we're talking about two completely different situations here.

Quote:
I have no idea what ECWHSI would have me believe. I've had his off topic emoticon filled one liners on ignore for a while now so don't bother asking me what I think of his posts.
Probably gonna have to follow your lead on this one.

Quote:
As for me, I think we SHOULD have a bilingual coach. It just makes sense. Lots of French fans and a big enough pool of good coaches to choose from. Why wouldn't you want a bilingual guy who can communicate with the fans?
I don't NOT want one, as long as he's good at what he does.

Quote:
Like I said, there are multiple guys who I think would be good enough to do this. I see no reason to go to the OHL and get a rookie Anglo when we can get bilingual guys to do the same job. If it was for a guy like Hitchcock... okay, I can sort of understand that at least. Hitch is a vet who's shown that he can actually improve a team's fortunes. If we really HAD to have a guy who plays a super defensive system then you can't really do any better. Other than a case like that though, just go with a bilingual guy.
That's like starting a business and when you hiring new employees you get frustrated because you have too many CVs on your desk, so you just hire the guys that live closest to the business. It doesn't make sense. You want the best guy, not the most convenient guy. Even if you don't have a contender (or a booming business) just yet.

Quote:
New management and a winning team will make potential FAs forget about this in a hurry. But as long as PG is still in the catbird seat, yes this fiasco will remain top of mind with anybody wanting to come here.
Agreed.

WeeBey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 12:35 AM
  #211
Kjell Dahlin
Registered User
 
Kjell Dahlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Québec, Québec
Posts: 1,998
vCash: 500
The... "Circus" in Montréal is allowing guys like "Double Chin" Spacek to earn almost 4M$ per year.

Heck... remove Montréal and Toronto from the NHL and within 5 years it, the NHL, would go bankrupt.

If you understand it right: hail to the Circus!

If your name is Spacek (or Higgins, Cammalleri... aka guys who bash Mtl): please stay away from Montreal.

Players in the mold of Gorges, Cole, Desharnais, Kostopoulos, Plekanec, Markov, Eller, Pacioretty, Hamrlik, Bégin, Bouillon, Andrei Kostitsyn, Gionta, Price, Halak, Leblanc, Gainey, Carbonneau... are welcomed. If you are "Spacek like" (as in: unable to perform in Montreal), please go play in Phoenix.

There is no circus in Phoenix.

Kjell Dahlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 12:52 AM
  #212
Kjell Dahlin
Registered User
 
Kjell Dahlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Québec, Québec
Posts: 1,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
For me, the top 3 things that potentially scare away UFAs are as followed:

1. Fans. Nobody likes to be playing in their home barn and receive boos from their own crowd because they are having a bad game. Nobody wants a website made of them because they haven't scored a goal in almost a calendar year. Face it, the fans are the biggest reason most don't give Montreal a chance. They turn on people at the drop of a dime.

2. Media. Much like the fans and probably the biggest contribution to why the fans react a certain way, the media in Montreal is terrible. Breaking into a hospital room and flashing a camera in someone's face when they are supposed to be protecting their eye is a disgrace. The way media chastises players, coaches and the team as a whole becomes tiring. And when le topic du jour is about bashing a player and players are being questioned about it after a game, it becomes an annoyance.

3. A very distant third is everything else. Taxes, weather, etc...
As I mentioned before, there is no circus in Phoenix. Your points (1) and (2) come with hockey driven markets; the kind of markets that keep the NHL ALIVE.

As for point (3) – especially taxes - ... come on!

There is not one place in North America that can get you more for your buck (cost of living) than Quebec.

And that does include taxes. That's why a lot of people from Ottawa are buying houses in Gatineau.


PS Gorges (Mtl did buy UFA years) and Cole were not afraid...

PPS some people like challenges.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 01-30-2012 at 01:00 AM.
Kjell Dahlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 01:05 AM
  #213
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
Nah, I don't want it to be true, I'd rather see the opposite. I've just interacted with enough human beings, and have a generally good hold on reality to know that it's most likely the truth. You can keep living in your fantasy world if you want though.



ahahaha

Is this guy for real?
Sure it is, you pretty much see anyone defending the language or not having your view on this particular topic as separatists... no need to ask I guess, you know the people, right ?


I am... and I'll help you out, I'll start with Serge Savard... your turn ? (might wanna try the other Senator)

ECWHSWI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 07:35 AM
  #214
idk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
dont know why you keep bringing that, no one ever said that...

what have been said though, is that once you take out the best - who will NOT be available - there isnt much of a difference in talent...
Or, to be succient, you are saying that whatever coach we have irrelevant (so long as we can't get a Babcock and don't appoint Youppi).

And I'll ask once again, did you have a point? Or are you just trying to get the last word in?

idk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 08:17 AM
  #215
seanlinden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
As for me, I think we SHOULD have a bilingual coach. It just makes sense. Lots of French fans and a big enough pool of good coaches to choose from. Why wouldn't you want a bilingual guy who can communicate with the fans?

Like I said, there are multiple guys who I think would be good enough to do this. I see no reason to go to the OHL and get a rookie Anglo when we can get bilingual guys to do the same job. If it was for a guy like Hitchcock... okay, I can sort of understand that at least. Hitch is a vet who's shown that he can actually improve a team's fortunes. If we really HAD to have a guy who plays a super defensive system then you can't really do any better. Other than a case like that though, just go with a bilingual guy.
What about the guy who is arguably the best coach currently unemployed, Randy Carlyle? To my knowledge, he isn't bilingual by any stretch of the imagination.

No, he doesn't really play a defensive system (why that's a requirement is beyond me), but he's proven something that no other currently available french coach has -- the ability to win.

You have to ask yourself -- what takes priority? being bilingual to cater to the media / fans? or winning?

Like another poster mentioned, you don't hire somebody because it's convenient, you hire somebody because they are the best possible candidate for the job. Montreal has to decide whether they're in the business of politics and trying to appease the province of Quebec's every wish, or whether they're in the business of winning.

My perspective on it, the media / fans in montreal will always find something off-ice related to complain about when the team isn't winning. The best solution to appeasing the fans / media -- win hockey games.

seanlinden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 09:24 AM
  #216
neofury*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal, PQ
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,277
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What about the guy who is arguably the best coach currently unemployed, Randy Carlyle? To my knowledge, he isn't bilingual by any stretch of the imagination.

No, he doesn't really play a defensive system (why that's a requirement is beyond me), but he's proven something that no other currently available french coach has -- the ability to win.

You have to ask yourself -- what takes priority? being bilingual to cater to the media / fans? or winning?

Like another poster mentioned, you don't hire somebody because it's convenient, you hire somebody because they are the best possible candidate for the job. Montreal has to decide whether they're in the business of politics and trying to appease the province of Quebec's every wish, or whether they're in the business of winning.

My perspective on it, the media / fans in montreal will always find something off-ice related to complain about when the team isn't winning. The best solution to appeasing the fans / media -- win hockey games.
Exactly. If the Sabres fire Lindy I expect the Habs to make a huge push to get him. Of course these are high expectations given how pathetic our management is when it comes to the language issue.

neofury* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 01:21 PM
  #217
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What about the guy who is arguably the best coach currently unemployed, Randy Carlyle? To my knowledge, he isn't bilingual by any stretch of the imagination.

No, he doesn't really play a defensive system (why that's a requirement is beyond me), but he's proven something that no other currently available french coach has -- the ability to win.

You have to ask yourself -- what takes priority? being bilingual to cater to the media / fans? or winning?

Like another poster mentioned, you don't hire somebody because it's convenient, you hire somebody because they are the best possible candidate for the job. Montreal has to decide whether they're in the business of politics and trying to appease the province of Quebec's every wish, or whether they're in the business of winning.

My perspective on it, the media / fans in montreal will always find something off-ice related to complain about when the team isn't winning. The best solution to appeasing the fans / media -- win hockey games.
I don't think Randy Carlyle is Scotty Bowman and I don't think that he's going to be that much better (if at all) than other options out there. I'm sorry but I just don't think this is a guy that we absolutely HAVE to have right now.

There are bilingual coaches that we can look at that can fit the bill just fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Exactly. If the Sabres fire Lindy I expect the Habs to make a huge push to get him. Of course these are high expectations given how pathetic our management is when it comes to the language issue.
See my comments above.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:21 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.