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Lebrun: Canuck and others looking at Moen

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Old
01-30-2012, 09:00 PM
  #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
I thought that their pillars were Moen and Plekanec. And why do we see Darche and Blunden there?? If Eller is that good, pair him with Z-man.
The guy who Ottawa uses for less than 1:00 per game on the PK?

Why do you keep insisting he's a good PKer?

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01-30-2012, 09:03 PM
  #327
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Also, there is nothing wrong with hitting... I have no issue with teams that through a lot of hits, or wanting to acquire players who do so.

I have an issue with you saying that fighters are necessary to win.

We can all agree that hitting and size are important components of team.... my only issue is that its not necessary to have a fighter.

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01-30-2012, 09:03 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The guy who Ottawa uses for less than 1:00 per game on the PK?

Why do you keep insisting he's a good PKer?
Because he is.

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01-30-2012, 09:10 PM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Also, there is nothing wrong with hitting... I have no issue with teams that through a lot of hits, or wanting to acquire players who do so.

I have an issue with you saying that fighters are necessary to win.

We can all agree that hitting and size are important components of team.... my only issue is that its not necessary to have a fighter.
So what do you do when a team decides to goon up? Out of 11 fights this year, the Habs won once. You let them take beatings?

When Eller has 5 Bruins on his back, you want to let the referees do the job instead of the players? Hockey is the only sport that you can police, in some way, by yourself. You do not demonstrate team spirit/team toughness when you let your players alone when they have 5 players on their back.

You need of a fighter to solve other fighters' problems.

The day we'll face the Islanders (who do not carry any fighter), I have no problem with letting your fighter beside when you face another soft team, but as Dany Dubé said last week, it's teams' responsability to make sure that you have the tools to answer any hockey style that you have to face. It's teams' responsabilty to calm down Lucics and Thorntons when they want to stir sh** up and try to take runs at your skills players and turn the momentum on their side.

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01-30-2012, 09:11 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
Because he is.
I'm sure you know more about who the best PKers on the Senators are, than their coaches do.

They have the 17th ranked PK in the league, if Konopka as good enough to make it better, he'd be out there.

He also got 1/2 as much PK time ber game as guys like Frans Nielson, Josh Bailey and Blake Comeau last year.

The Islanders PK was also greatly improved in the second half of the season last year, when they replaced him with Michael Grabner.

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01-30-2012, 09:13 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
So what do you do when a team decides to goon up? Out of 11 fights this year, the Habs won once. You let them take beatings?

When Eller has 5 Bruins on his back, you want to let the referees do the job instead of the players? Hockey is the only sport that you can police, in some way, by yourself. You do not demonstrate team spirit/team toughness when you let your players alone when they have 5 players on their back.

You need of a fighter to solve other fighters' problems.

The day we'll face the Islanders (who do not carry any fighter), I have no problem with letting your fighter beside when you face another soft team, but as Dany Dubé said last week, it's teams' responsability to make sure that you have the tools to answer any hockey style that you have to face. It's teams' responsabilty to calm down Lucics and Thorntons when they want to stir sh** up and try to take runs at your skills players and turn the momentum on their side.
But we're back to the same thing... if this strategy led to winning, why does noone use it in the playoffs?

Your whole argument makes no sense when you take that into consideration.

And its especially more true when you realize that there are less penalties called in the playoffs, especially for scrums after whistles.


As for a fighter solving problems.... with the instigator rule, thats not possible.
Secondly, he'd need to be on the ice at the same time as the incident occurs, in order to pull those 5 guys off of Eller. If he's playing 4:00-6:00 minutes a game, what happens if they jump the guy in the other 54:00 of the game? Is he going to leave the bench to get involved?

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01-30-2012, 10:17 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
But we're back to the same thing... if this strategy led to winning, why does noone use it in the playoffs?
3 times and you still don't understand that the game during the playoffs isn't the same than during the regular season. There are less hits, almost no fighting and the team toughness is something acquired.

Not only that, but in desperation, after traling 0-2 in the last series against the Canucks, the Bruins brought Shawn Thornton back, he took runs at Canucks and the momentum changed side. Thornton was a scratch against the Lightings. Why would he play against a team that doesn't carry an enforcer? Anyway, they have Lucic that can handle this type of stuff as good as Thornton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
As for a fighter solving problems.... with the instigator rule, thats not possible.
It is. I'm all for the instigator rule to be deleted, but look at the amount of fights where the instigator rule wasn't applied. If it was really applied for each fight, no player would fight. Did Hendricks took a 2 minutes for instigator when he challenged Rene Bourque?? Not according to the NHL.com website.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/Recap.htm?id=2011020681

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
Secondly, he'd need to be on the ice at the same time as the incident occurs, in order to pull those 5 guys off of Eller. If he's playing 4:00-6:00 minutes a game, what happens if they jump the guy in the other 54:00 of the game? Is he going to leave the bench to get involved?
It's better if he's on the ice at the same time, but it's not required. But you see, the Bruins make sure they always have some toughness on the ice. If it's not Thornton, it's Lucic or Chara, and normally there are other players of the likes of Campbell, McQuaid, Boychuk, Ference, Horton...

If it was Hal Gill that pushed Krejci's head on the turnbuckle, we wouldn't see a bunch of dwarves like Gomez and Gionta going "yip yip yip!". Great team toughness right there.

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01-30-2012, 10:28 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
3 times and you still don't understand that the game during the playoffs isn't the same than during the regular season. There are less hits, almost no fighting and the team toughness is something acquired.
There are less hits in the playoffs?

Have you ever watched playoff hockey?

LOL.. Ridiculous.

Quote:
Not only that, but in desperation, after traling 0-2 in the last series against the Canucks, the Bruins brought Shawn Thornton back, he took runs at Canucks and the momentum changed side.
Momentum changed because Luongo couldn't stop a puck in Boston, nothing to do with Thornton.

Quote:
Thornton was a scratch against the Lightings. Why would he play against a team that doesn't carry an enforcer? Anyway, they have Lucic that can handle this type of stuff as good as Thornton.



It is. I'm all for the instigator rule to be deleted, but look at the amount of fights where the instigator rule wasn't applied. If it was really applied for each fight, no player would fight. Did Hendricks took a 2 minutes for instigator when he challenged Rene Bourque?? Not according to the NHL.com website.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/Recap.htm?id=2011020681



It's better if he's on the ice at the same time, but it's not required. But you see, the Bruins make sure they always have some toughness on the ice. If it's not Thornton, it's Lucic or Chara, and normally there are other players of the likes of Campbell, McQuaid, Boychuk, Ference, Horton...

If it was Hal Gill that pushed Krejci's head on the turnbuckle, we wouldn't see a bunch of dwarves like Gomez and Gionta going "yip yip yip!". Great team toughness right there.
1) There is no one, and I mean NO ONE in the NHL who would scare Chara in a fight. Not in the NHL.

2) What good is the fight after the damage is done. Sure it makes you feel like you got revenge but it doesn't fix Patches neck. Same thing for the Capitals when they fought Bourque, it didn't fix anything.

And it doesnt prevent these hits either.... if it did, the Big Bad Bruins, wouldn't have lost Marc Savard via Cooke, wouldn't have lost Horton in the finals via Rome, wouldn't have lost Patrice Bergeron to Randy Jones either

The Flyers are one of the toughest teams in the league too... always have been.... hasn't stopped them from being one of the most concussed teams too.... Lindros, Primeau, pronger, Gagne, Giroux, etc.. etc... the list goes on and on.

Fighting doesn't bring your injured players back... and people have run the stats, there is zero correlation between Man Games lost per injury and Number of Fighting Majors a team takes... none. Not in the years they looked at (I think the guy took a ten year look at things) it was posted here.

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01-30-2012, 10:32 PM
  #334
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There are more hits in the PO's... the game gets WAY more physical then regular season. I cannot comprehend how someone can say they have watched PO hockey and say that with a straight face.

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01-30-2012, 11:01 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
There are less hits in the playoffs?

Have you ever watched playoff hockey?

LOL.. Ridiculous.
In numbers, I have to say I was fooled about the number hits (you'll see that I don't have much difficulty to admit I was wrong when I really am).

But watch the number of fights. Does it increase or decrease during the playoffs? So what's the of carrying an enforcer if the other teams do not?

And if those teams are able to play enforcers all year long and adjust their style of playing for the playoffs, why can't we do that to? You named a bunch of teams that did it anyway, I don't need to do it another time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
1) There is no one, and I mean NO ONE in the NHL who would scare Chara in a fight. Not in the NHL.
Oh no? Chara looks good in most of his fights because he knows how to pick his spots, and when he fights a legit fighter, for some reasons he starts having balance issues and falls down before getting pummeled in the face. Secondly, I don't think that he likes the idea of spending 5 minutes in the box - he is one of the best defenseman of the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
2) What good is the fight after the damage is done. Sure it makes you feel like you got revenge but it doesn't fix Patches neck. Same thing for the Capitals when they fought Bourque, it didn't fix anything.
I agree with that. But the jail system puts people behind the bars and it doesn't fix the crime. But the fight (revenge) in hockey gives your team some team toughness, it shows how solid are the links between the players and how they can step u for each other, just like the jail system gives the people the feeling that the neighbourhood is safe. Without numbers, I do think that someone isn't going to repeat the same cheapshot soon after getting beaten up. I'd be surprised if Tomas Kopecky decides to go for another suckerpunch at Del Zotto after getting severly pummeled in the face by Mike Rupp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
The Flyers are one of the toughest teams in the league too... always have been.... hasn't stopped them from being one of the most concussed teams too.... Lindros, Primeau, pronger, Gagne, Giroux, etc.. etc... the list goes on and on.

Fighting doesn't bring your injured players back... and people have run the stats, there is zero correlation between Man Games lost per injury and Number of Fighting Majors a team takes... none. Not in the years they looked at (I think the guy took a ten year look at things) it was posted here.
I don't think it directly prevents injuries also.

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01-30-2012, 11:15 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
In numbers, I have to say I was fooled about the number hits (you'll see that I don't have much difficulty to admit I was wrong when I really am).

But watch the number of fights. Does it increase or decrease during the playoffs? So what's the of carrying an enforcer if the other teams do not?
Okay...

By your logic.... In the regular season when the other team has an enforcer dressed, and Montreal doesn't have one on their roster, the Habs are at a disadvantage because their players become intimidated.

But.... in the playoffs; when one team decides not to play an enforcer; the other team does the same? Why? Wouldn't the same principles of intimidation leading to an advantage during the game, and more wins also apply?

Your logic here makes 0 sense.


Quote:
And if those teams are able to play enforcers all year long and adjust their style of playing for the playoffs, why can't we do that to? You named a bunch of teams that did it anyway, I don't need to do it another time.
If the enforcer helps you all year long, and gives you a greater chance of winning all year long, why does that suddenly change?

Why doesn't it happen with any other position?

Why is he the only guy who apparently "helps a team win" all year, but doesn't help in the playoffs?

The total lack of logic behind this position is absolutely astounding.


Quote:
Oh no? Chara looks good in most of his fights because he knows how to pick his spots, and when he fights a legit fighter, for some reasons he starts having balance issues and falls down before getting pummeled in the face.
B.S. Chara is the toughest guy in the league, no question in mind. Especially with Boogaard gone (RIP).

Quote:
Secondly, I don't think that he likes the idea of spending 5 minutes in the box - he is one of the best defenseman of the league.
okay, so if he won't fight because he doesn't want to spend 5 minutes in the box, who was supposed to fight him after the Pacioretty incident?

Again... the logic here... what you are arguing doesnt make any sense.

You argue that we should have had someone fight chara, and then you argue that even if we had an enforcer he wouldn't spend 5 minutes in the box anyway.

You're not making sense.


Quote:
I agree with that. But the jail system puts people behind the bars and it doesn't fix the crime. But the fight (revenge) in hockey gives your team some team toughness, it shows how solid are the links between the players and how they can step u for each other, just like the jail system gives the people the feeling that the neighbourhood is safe. Without numbers, I do think that someone isn't going to repeat the same cheapshot soon after getting beaten up. I'd be surprised if Tomas Kopecky decides to go for another suckerpunch at Del Zotto after getting severly pummeled in the face by Mike Rupp.

I don't think it directly prevents injuries also.
It makes bloodthirsty fans happy that their team got some measure of revenge, nothing more.

And its nothing like the jail system. Its vigilante justice.

Shanahan's suspensions are a better comparison to the legal system, than any on ice fight.

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01-31-2012, 12:32 AM
  #337
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Ahhh...the debate rages on regarding toughness. Same on our board.


Anyhow - how has Campoli looked thusfar? Has he settled in?

IMO he's a little underrated.

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01-31-2012, 12:38 AM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momesso View Post
Ahhh...the debate rages on regarding toughness. Same on our board.


Anyhow - how has Campoli looked thusfar? Has he settled in?

IMO he's a little underrated.
IMO Campoli has not been very good here. He's about 7th on our depth chart, not including Markov.

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01-31-2012, 01:16 AM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momesso View Post
Ahhh...the debate rages on regarding toughness. Same on our board.


Anyhow - how has Campoli looked thusfar? Has he settled in?

IMO he's a little underrated.
meh, not really, same guy turning every thread into a toughness thread, nothing new we had few others doing the same not long ago.

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01-31-2012, 04:49 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Enforcer4 View Post
If it was Hal Gill that pushed Krejci's head on the turnbuckle, we wouldn't see a bunch of dwarves like Gomez and Gionta going "yip yip yip!". Great team toughness right there.
What if it was Matt Cooke that blindsided Marc Savard? Oh wait, that happened. I see Ryder going 'yip yip yip' and Lucic standing around. Still, Cooke had a quick staged fight with Thornton a few weeks later, does that count as 'team toughness'?

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01-31-2012, 07:31 AM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momesso View Post
Ahhh...the debate rages on regarding toughness. Same on our board.


Anyhow - how has Campoli looked thusfar? Has he settled in?

IMO he's a little underrated.
His injury at the start of the year sure didn't help Missed 2 months and hasn't been that good since returning. I'm sure he will be moved from now to deadline

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01-31-2012, 07:45 AM
  #342
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I just love this battle of the extremists right now, 1 probably had a ***** when Darche-Engvist-Palushaj was our 4th line and 1 wants 3 players that can take on heavyweights

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