HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Our Centre situation for the future [ALL CENTRE DEPTH DISCUSSION]

View Poll Results: What do we do?
Draft a number one center and trade Plekanec for a key missing piece? 31 41.33%
Draft a number one center and trade Eller? 2 2.67%
Draft a number one center and trade Desharnais? 10 13.33%
Draft a number one center and shift Deshairnais to wing? 20 26.67%
Keep our existing centers and draft a winger or defenseman? 12 16.00%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-30-2012, 07:21 PM
  #226
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I think we're a team that has to win by committee anyways. I think Pleks is more than adequate with proper support.
I agree that Pleks is adequate... but Pleks/Desharnais isnt. Desharnais is good, but needs to be a third liner, and needs to not be put in the extreme sheltered situation he's in right now (two best and biggest wings with him, no tough matchups).

Pleks is at least as good as Kreijci/Bergeron on Boston. Problem is there is two of them, and one of Plekanec. We need a second guy to be 1a/1b with him... With Eller as the #3, and DD on the wing.

We should try and draft a top 6 center this year. He might not be ready right away, but its too hard to get these guys without drafting them.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 08:56 PM
  #227
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
name them...



and again, "strong first line centre" is a purely subjective opinion, not some objective fact.

not to mention that it is a pretty big stretch to go from "not a strong first line centre" to "poor first line centre"


Plekanec was a perfectly fine first line centre in 08, when he-kost-kovalev combined to be one of the better lines in the league.

Plekanec did just fine as the first line centre (or most used Centre) for the Czech republic at the most recent world championships/olympics


I'm sorry, but it's just hyperbole to argue he's not a first line centre just because he isn't one of the elite/top-10 centres in the game.

don't buy that he isn't top-20 at all, assuming we are talking about current ability/level of play...
The San Jose Sharks alone might have three guys who are probably better at this stage with Marleau being able to fill the role and Couture emerging as their best player this season.

Crosby
Malkin
Stamkos
Thornton
Staal
Lecavalier
Richards x 2
Kopitar
Datsyuk
Backstrom
Kesler
Getzlaff
Marleau
Tavares
Seguin
Zetterberg
Toews
Spezza

All of those guys are better. Eliminate the salary question and we'd take any one of them straight up over Pleks. You put his name up there in that list and he'd stick out like a sore thumb.

Pleks is in the class with Carter, Briere, Roy, Krejic... good players but not great first line centers. And I'd take Ryan Nugent Hopkins over these guys as well, he's already shown that he can be a point per game guy and lead a team's offense. There's also Logan Couture, Mike Ribeiro, Elias, Backes... tons of guys who would be comparable to Pleks. Depending on how generous you want to be with Pleks he might be the 20th best or he might be outside the top 30... He's a good player but not in that upper class of centers though man.

Edit: Can't believe I forgot Sedin.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 01-30-2012 at 09:02 PM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 08:58 PM
  #228
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 500
Marleau hasn't played much center for 3 or 4 years now... he's pretty much a LW now.

Lecavalier is overrated.

Crosby over the last calendar year is only slightly better value than Andrei Markov in the same time frame.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 09:05 PM
  #229
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Marleau hasn't played much center for 3 or 4 years now... he's pretty much a LW now.

Lecavalier is overrated.

Crosby over the last calendar year is only slightly better value than Andrei Markov in the same time frame.
I figured folks would nitpick... whatever man. Lecavalier has consistently been better and is a much better goal scorer. Overrated? Okay, but he's still better than Pleks is. Marleau can play center just fine as can Zetterberg. Crosby? I'll uh, just leave that one alone. I think he's a tad bit better than Pleks is even with a broken skull.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 09:24 PM
  #230
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I figured folks would nitpick... whatever man. Lecavalier has consistently been better and is a much better goal scorer. Overrated? Okay, but he's still better than Pleks is.
Sure, 5 or 6 years ago... no question. Today, I'm not so sure Lecavalier belongs in that "step above" group.

Pleks tied Lecavalier in pts in 2010...
Pleks beat Lecavalier in pts in 2011

And Pleks is the better defensive player.

Quote:
Marleau can play center just fine as can Zetterberg.
Hard to call a guy among the top centres in the NHL when he doesnt play Centre.


Quote:
Crosby? I'll uh, just leave that one alone. I think he's a tad bit better than Pleks is even with a broken skull.
When he plays? Of course.

For the last year.... hes done about as much as Markov. Markov is a top 10 D in the NHL, but little good its done the Habs this season. Sid's in a similar situation.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 09:39 PM
  #231
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Sure, 5 or 6 years ago... no question. Today, I'm not so sure Lecavalier belongs in that "step above" group.

Pleks tied Lecavalier in pts in 2010...
Pleks beat Lecavalier in pts in 2011

And Pleks is the better defensive player.
Nobody would take Pleks over him if their salaries were the same. Vinny's definitely better and is going to score more goals. I'm not suggesting that Lecavalier is in the same class as Datsyuk, but he's better than Pleks is. Any team in the world would take Vinny over Pleks if salary wasn't an issue.

BTW, Pleks had a career year in 2010 and tied Vinny and you're trying to pull a fast one on 2011.

In 2009 and earlier - Vinny crushes him
In 2011 Vinny has a significant edge in points and goals per game. They got close to the same point totals but Vinny played in 12 less games and still scored more goals. If both played in 82 games, Vinny would have outpointed Pleks by 8 and scored over 30 goals as per usual... something Plek has never done.
In 2012 Vinny has almost double the amount of goals and a big edge in points.

So basically, Plekanec had to have a career year just to tie the guy in 2010. Every other year Vinny has been better in goals and points per game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Hard to call a guy among the top centres in the NHL when he doesnt play Centre.
Sure he does. He pulls double duty man. And if we got him, we'd play him at center. It's not like I'm trying to include Jarome Iginla here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
When he plays? Of course.

For the last year.... hes done about as much as Markov. Markov is a top 10 D in the NHL, but little good its done the Habs this season. Sid's in a similar situation.
Would you trade Pleks straight up for Crosby knowing what you know today? Of course you would. Would you trade Pleks for Markov straight up if Markov was on another team? Of course not. Again, you're being silly here. It's not like Crosby's missed the better part of three seasons the way Markov has. He had an undiagnosed neck injury that has now been uncovered. It's being speculated that his concussion might not have even been the main problem here. He doesn't now suddenly become inelgible for discussion here because he's recovering from injury. It's not like I included Marc Savard here dude... Jonathan Toews just went on the DL as well. Does that mean he's not as good as Pleks either? Of course not.

RNH is injured too, that doesn't mean he's out of the equation either. Personally, I think he's a better centerman than Pleks is too btw.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 01-30-2012 at 10:06 PM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 09:47 PM
  #232
Aceekay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Yellowknife
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,615
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The San Jose Sharks alone might have three guys who are probably better at this stage with Marleau being able to fill the role and Couture emerging as their best player this season.

Crosby
Malkin
Stamkos
Thornton
Staal
Lecavalier
Richards x 2
Kopitar
Datsyuk
Backstrom
Kesler
Getzlaff
Marleau
Tavares
Seguin
Zetterberg
Toews
Spezza

All of those guys are better. Eliminate the salary question and we'd take any one of them straight up over Pleks. You put his name up there in that list and he'd stick out like a sore thumb.

Pleks is in the class with Carter, Briere, Roy, Krejic... good players but not great first line centers. And I'd take Ryan Nugent Hopkins over these guys as well, he's already shown that he can be a point per game guy and lead a team's offense. There's also Logan Couture, Mike Ribeiro, Elias, Backes... tons of guys who would be comparable to Pleks. Depending on how generous you want to be with Pleks he might be the 20th best or he might be outside the top 30... He's a good player but not in that upper class of centers though man.

Edit: Can't believe I forgot Sedin.
Agreed.

Plekanec is a very good two way 2nd line center but i just dont see the point in keeping him when we could involve him in a package for huberdeau. Especially now that eller and desharnais are playing like 2nd line centers.

Aceekay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 10:08 PM
  #233
Frozenice
the random dude
 
Frozenice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,160
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceekay View Post
Agreed.

Plekanec is a very good two way 2nd line center but i just dont see the point in keeping him when we could involve him in a package for huberdeau. Especially now that eller and desharnais are playing like 2nd line centers.
Has Florida shown the slightest interest in trading Huberdeau because if they aren't interested, he'll probably stay in Florida.

Frozenice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 10:25 PM
  #234
Talks to Goalposts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,560
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I figured folks would nitpick... whatever man. Lecavalier has consistently been better and is a much better goal scorer. Overrated? Okay, but he's still better than Pleks is. Marleau can play center just fine as can Zetterberg. Crosby? I'll uh, just leave that one alone. I think he's a tad bit better than Pleks is even with a broken skull.
Lecavilier beats Plekanec hands down on points. No question. Value wise is a lot muddier. Lecavilier really doesn't have a defensive game worth talking about while Pleks is awesome there. Special teams wise Plekanec beats him no problem, good powerplay ability combined with elite penalty killing beats a guy thats just a good power play player.

So the question is whether Lecavilier's better ES offense beats Plekanec's better ES defense value and if it does, weather that outweighs Plekanec's special teams value.

I'd argue Plekanec provides more value but it would be pretty close.

Talks to Goalposts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 10:51 PM
  #235
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 500
We've seen a repeating pattern with Plekanec the last three years.

2009-10... very hot first half of the season, big offensive numbers, was over a PPG after about 35 games or so, but then cooled considerably down the stretch....

2010-11... started the season red hot again... was a PPG player through the first 20 games, then cooled off again.

2011-12.... again PPG for the first 20 games, and now has fallen off through the next 30.




I think we'd get a lot more out of Plekanec if we didnt wear him down. If he didn't have to play every PK. If he didn't have to take every big faceoff. If he didn't have to play against the other team's best lines every night.

Notice of the three seasons, the 09-10 season where he kept things going for longer and didn't fall off as badly as he did the past two years is the only season when we had a semi-productive Gomez line. That took some of the load off of Pleks.

I really think a big centre who can score pts, win faceoffs, and take some of pleks defensive assignments, in the 1a/1b role is necessary to get the most out of Plekanec. I think Desharnais is okay as a scorer, but he can't take enough of the big responsibility Pleks takes. I think we are better off with DD on the third unit with Eller, and getting ourselves another centre who can compliment Plekanec.

I think if the plan is merely to move Pleks as part of a package for the mythical #1 guy, we'll be disappointed as we'll just burn out the new guy too.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 11:09 PM
  #236
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Lecavilier beats Plekanec hands down on points. No question. Value wise is a lot muddier. Lecavilier really doesn't have a defensive game worth talking about while Pleks is awesome there. Special teams wise Plekanec beats him no problem, good powerplay ability combined with elite penalty killing beats a guy thats just a good power play player.

So the question is whether Lecavilier's better ES offense beats Plekanec's better ES defense value and if it does, weather that outweighs Plekanec's special teams value.

I'd argue Plekanec provides more value but it would be pretty close.
Plekanec isn't Guy Carbonneau though... yes he can check but he's not the second coming of Bob Gainey. He's got some versatility but he has zero size or grit. I think if you asked 30 GMs on who'd they'd choose, all 30 would take Vinny. Much bigger and stronger and his ceiling is much higher. On any given year, you can expect about 70 points out of Vinny to go along with 30 goals. But we've seen he can do better than this. Pleks, you're lucky to get 70 points, he could easily drop to 50 and he's probably going to max out at about 25 goals on a good year. It's not a huge chasm between them but Vinny is the better player.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 11:39 PM
  #237
Aceekay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Yellowknife
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,615
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Has Florida shown the slightest interest in trading Huberdeau because if they aren't interested, he'll probably stay in Florida.
Im sure if you package plekanec they would be willing to part with huberdeau, it would take a lot though. But it will never happen, that would also mean that we are in full tank mode which would cost gauthier his job.

Aceekay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2012, 11:58 PM
  #238
Talks to Goalposts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,560
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Plekanec isn't Guy Carbonneau though... yes he can check but he's not the second coming of Bob Gainey. He's got some versatility but he has zero size or grit. I think if you asked 30 GMs on who'd they'd choose, all 30 would take Vinny. Much bigger and stronger and his ceiling is much higher. On any given year, you can expect about 70 points out of Vinny to go along with 30 goals. But we've seen he can do better than this. Pleks, you're lucky to get 70 points, he could easily drop to 50 and he's probably going to max out at about 25 goals on a good year. It's not a huge chasm between them but Vinny is the better player.
Size and grit does not equal defense. The two things are completely separate and only tangentially related.

Talks to Goalposts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 06:20 AM
  #239
onice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,405
vCash: 500
I was of the opinion that the center position was one of our weak points especially the top two but then I looked at the stats.

DD is 24th, Pleks 29th and this is during a terrible Habs season. I know offensive stats are not the only things to look at but Pleks would probably rank in the top when it comes to defensive awareness and DD is elite when it comes playmaking skills. So I ask myself what is the real problem with the Habs?

It goes back to Gainey's brilliant decision to go small. Right now DD is insulated between Cole & Patches. Cunneyworth has to do the same thing for Pleks. He's given him Bourque on one wing he needs to give him another on the other wing. Pleks has played all season with Cammy, Gionta or some other smurf.

I really don't think the center position is a problem for the Habs if we could match our centers with players that complement them.

Actually before they fired Martin, I posted somewhere that the Habs were not that bad. All they needed was an assistant coach who could organize their powerplay. I still think that. If the Habs powerplay was in the high teens we would be looking at a top 6 team in the conference. Right now we've got the best PK, and we're 9th at 5 on 5 goals for & against. We're dead last on the powerplay.


Last edited by onice: 01-31-2012 at 06:26 AM.
onice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 06:52 PM
  #240
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Size and grit does not equal defense. The two things are completely separate and only tangentially related.
Never said it did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
I was of the opinion that the center position was one of our weak points especially the top two but then I looked at the stats.

DD is 24th, Pleks 29th and this is during a terrible Habs season. I know offensive stats are not the only things to look at but Pleks would probably rank in the top when it comes to defensive awareness and DD is elite when it comes playmaking skills. So I ask myself what is the real problem with the Habs?

It goes back to Gainey's brilliant decision to go small. Right now DD is insulated between Cole & Patches. Cunneyworth has to do the same thing for Pleks. He's given him Bourque on one wing he needs to give him another on the other wing. Pleks has played all season with Cammy, Gionta or some other smurf.

I really don't think the center position is a problem for the Habs if we could match our centers with players that complement them.

Actually before they fired Martin, I posted somewhere that the Habs were not that bad. All they needed was an assistant coach who could organize their powerplay. I still think that. If the Habs powerplay was in the high teens we would be looking at a top 6 team in the conference. Right now we've got the best PK, and we're 9th at 5 on 5 goals for & against. We're dead last on the powerplay.
Again, it depends on your goals. Our centers certainly aren't great but they aren't terrible. They certainly aren't going to lead us to a cup though the way centers on other clubs can do for their teams.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 07:13 PM
  #241
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 500
Basically Pleks can be a #1 but if he's gonna be your number 1, you better get a superb #2 who compliments him. Ie so its a 1a/1b situation like what the Bruins have in Kreijci/Bergeron.

Or DD can be an adequate #2, if he's behind an elite #1.

But pleks/dd as the top 2 doesn't work.

So upgrade on DD, and move him down to the third line wing.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:54 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.