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Brunet Gives Timmins some love (disses french media?)

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Old
01-30-2012, 06:47 PM
  #226
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Coming at this from the other side, there is so much statistical noise and variability in the draft I wouldn't go so far as to say he's the best there is. He could just have gotten lucky too.

More that if your constructing a list of who the best in the league could be, his name would have to be on it.
You can be lucky with a player or two... but over 5 or 6 years ? not really...


besides, if he's THAT lucky, might as well keep the luckiest of em all where he can use that luck (draft)

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01-30-2012, 07:20 PM
  #227
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C'est bien beau tout ça, mais on attend toujours notre gros centre numéro 1 depuis 15 ans.

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01-30-2012, 07:28 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
You can be lucky with a player or two... but over 5 or 6 years ? not really...


besides, if he's THAT lucky, might as well keep the luckiest of em all where he can use that luck (draft)
The point was he could be good at it but made to look brilliant by luck (i.e. true value of say 2 players per draft that had a run of good fortune bringing him up to say 3 per draft over the course of 5 years or so). That's just the nature of this kind of thing, pinning down exactly how good of a drafter he is will be subjected to a great deal of noise.

Much like you can have a guy whose true talent level is 20 goals per 82 games occasionally get 30 in a season.

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01-30-2012, 07:49 PM
  #229
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Timmins is NOT the problem. He's done a damn good job.

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Old
01-31-2012, 11:44 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Boston has drafted well in that time period but not better than Timmins. Here are Boston's results

Kessel
Bergeron
Lucic
Marchand
Stuart
Krejci
Versteeg
Sobotka
Henwick

When you look at quantity Timmins destroys them and when you look at quality (their top drafted talent) they still come up second.

Kessel
Bergeron
Lucic
Marchand
Krejci
Stuart

Compared to

Price
Halak
McDonagh
Patches
Subban
Andrei K
Grabovski
Sergei k.
Emelin

Again, you give more value to Boston's prospects because the team won a Cup. Well, you give us Chiarelli instead of Bobsled or The Ghost and I maintain Montreal would have won more than one cup and would have probably been in the finals 3 or 4 times.

No scouting staff can fulfill all your needs. That's why you have a GM to take the surpluses and trade them for needs. Chiarelli did that. Holmgren did that. Gainey & Gauthier didn't. Bobsled & The Ghost remind me of rich boys I went to school with. They would give their allowance away to their poorer friends just because they were that way.

What you overlook is the waste and terrible asset management by those two bunglers. With Timmins and his staff in place teamed by a half decent GM (not even a very good one just a half decent one) we would be talking about a dynasty in Montreal and not a bottom feeder.

You realize in those 5 years (between 03 & 07) Timmins has had 17 prospects make it as NHLers. That's almost a complete team. Only an idiot or idiots could take those riches and squander them so badly that we've become a lottery pick.

In many ways this Habs team reminds me of the Expos. Great drafting but for one reason or another can't hold onto our talent or convert a talent or two (we have too much of) into a different sort of talent we need.

The more I think about this the angrier I get. We have the best man in the league working for us in the scouting department but we have had two GMs that I claim have been worse than Houle.

When Rejean took over there was nothing in the cupboard. Savard had been sleeping on the job forthe last 4-5 years. Houle had to rebuild the scouting staff and had to cut payroll because Molson (the company not the family) were looking to save money.

Gainey & Gauthier didn't have that. They had owners that wanted to win and they had a head scout that is the best at his job and they brought us to this point. 3-4 points from last place. These two GMs are worse than Houle.
What I overlooked? Again, I'm been known as this terrible pessimistic guy for continuously bashing this duo we've had for the last 8 years. And I KEEP saying that we should stop giving picks away so we'd let the guy WHO IS OUR GREATEST ASSET IN OUR TEAM, work. So unless you don't know me and my opinions on the subject, you know that I'm one of their harsher critics.

As far as quality is concerned of both teams, again, while I do know that Chiarelli surrounded them better, those Boston players themselves have also helped the new acquire players to shine as well. And they even got themselves going. We could cleary say that Marchand is doing an incredible job yet, maybe he's doing it because of Bergeron. So that bunch they've drafted permitted for that team to do great in the playoffs. Yes, the additions of Thomas and Chara isn't too shabby, I obviously know. And their GM was also able to get a Rask for a Raycroft while we were able to get a Eller for a Halak. I know all of that. But most of our list, you can still say that most of them are still unproven on a long run and in the playoffs. Chances are you would take Bergeron ahead of most of that list. And you'd take Lucic ahead of most of it as well. And again, I'm not sure where I'm bashing Timmins buy anyway. Though, I do mention that he's way more impressive in his later rounds than in his 1st rounds. That's just a fact. 2003, 2004, 2006 could have been better. And we will find it out soon for 2009-2011. Then you look at who he was able to find in later rounds from Streit, Halak and Co and that is impressive. But there were strategies I didn't like, the 2006-2007 strategy of going with prioritizing d-men and not BPA, though I am, SOMETIMES, for needs as well but not like that. I also think that we should be better at our 2 most important locations we love, which is the Q and the US. We could be better. Timmins might be the best. But I believe even a #1 could improve. Not sure how I can word it differently. He's OBVIOUSLY not a problem, I'm pretty sure that naming him THE GREATEST ASSET WE HAVE, as a compliment and a proof that he's not a problem. So it is a thread about discussing Timmins and Co., what we like, what we don't. Not a thread entitled "Who is the biggest problem we have".

So now, the question is....if we have the best head scout in the league who is destroying everybody else....how the **** are we still a playoff contender team? And if the answer is the GM and his group, how the **** do anybody in here keep defending them? How the heck can you be so great and yet have to buy yourself a core of smurfs because you're simply screwed and have no choice....


Last edited by Whitesnake: 01-31-2012 at 11:49 AM.
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01-31-2012, 12:09 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
What I overlooked? Again, I'm been known as this terrible pessimistic guy for continuously bashing this duo we've had for the last 8 years. And I KEEP saying that we should stop giving picks away so we'd let the guy WHO IS OUR GREATEST ASSET IN OUR TEAM, work. So unless you don't know me and my opinions on the subject, you know that I'm one of their harsher critics.

As far as quality is concerned of both teams, again, while I do know that Chiarelli surrounded them better, those Boston players themselves have also helped the new acquire players to shine as well. And they even got themselves going. We could cleary say that Marchand is doing an incredible job yet, maybe he's doing it because of Bergeron. So that bunch they've drafted permitted for that team to do great in the playoffs. Yes, the additions of Thomas and Chara isn't too shabby, I obviously know. And their GM was also able to get a Rask for a Raycroft while we were able to get a Eller for a Halak. I know all of that. But most of our list, you can still say that most of them are still unproven on a long run and in the playoffs. Chances are you would take Bergeron ahead of most of that list. And you'd take Lucic ahead of most of it as well. And again, I'm not sure where I'm bashing Timmins buy anyway. Though, I do mention that he's way more impressive in his later rounds than in his 1st rounds. That's just a fact. 2003, 2004, 2006 could have been better. And we will find it out soon for 2009-2011. Then you look at who he was able to find in later rounds from Streit, Halak and Co and that is impressive. But there were strategies I didn't like, the 2006-2007 strategy of going with prioritizing d-men and not BPA, though I am, SOMETIMES, for needs as well but not like that. I also think that we should be better at our 2 most important locations we love, which is the Q and the US. We could be better. Timmins might be the best. But I believe even a #1 could improve. Not sure how I can word it differently. He's OBVIOUSLY not a problem, I'm pretty sure that naming him THE GREATEST ASSET WE HAVE, as a compliment and a proof that he's not a problem. So it is a thread about discussing Timmins and Co., what we like, what we don't. Not a thread entitled "Who is the biggest problem we have".

So now, the question is....if we have the best head scout in the league who is destroying everybody else....how the **** are we still a playoff contender team? And if the answer is the GM and his group, how the **** do anybody in here keep defending them? How the heck can you be so great and yet have to buy yourself a core of smurfs because you're simply screwed and have no choice....

Whitesnake, when you compare the draft picks between the two teams you realize that Boston is not even in the same league as Timmins. So, the question is raised how come they won the cup. Here's your answer:

Bruins not drafted by the team:

Timmins
Rask
Chara
Horton
Beverley
Recchi
Campbell
Kelly
Thornton
Boychuk
Ference
McQuaid
Seidenberg

That's 13 players. A team is allowed to dress only 22. That's more than half. Looking at those players one quickly realizes that Boston's drafting had little to do with their Cup win and it was the traded players that helped the drafted ones.


Boston management went out and filled in what the drafting didn't accomplish.

Here in Montreal our two clowns decided they were gonna reinvent the wheel and use only small and not-all-that-fast players and if that wasn't enough, they figured getting rid of "problem" players for nothing or next to nothing would improve the team.

So we come back to my post to you. The reason you think highly of Bruins drafting is because their management improved on the drafting. Here management's incompetence was masked by phenomenal drafting. If I had to trade all of Boston's pick's from 03 to 07 for Timmins I wouldn't do it. So your little exercise about picking this player or that player off the Bruins is meaningless. If Bergeon was on our drafted list he would not be the best of our drafted players. Neither would Lucic. Jeeze, I can remember awhile ago, me saying I would take Lucic over Lats any day of the week and many on this board didn't agree. they claimed Lats was the better player and Lats isn't even in the top 10 of Timmins picks. So how good can Lucic be?

Now, I've been including Gauthier with gainey. In all fairness I think Gauthier has been a victim of Gainey's colossal stupidity. Maybe he advised Gainey to go with smurfs, maybe he didn't but I've seen a change with him at the helm. He got Cole, he traded Cammy for Bourque, he went after Emelin. Just for those moves I would give Gauthier one more year. See what he does.


Last edited by Habs Icing: 01-31-2012 at 12:22 PM.
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Old
01-31-2012, 05:33 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Whitesnake, when you compare the draft picks between the two teams you realize that Boston is not even in the same league as Timmins. So, the question is raised how come they won the cup. Here's your answer:

Bruins not drafted by the team:

Timmins
Rask
Chara
Horton
Beverley
Recchi
Campbell
Kelly
Thornton
Boychuk
Ference
McQuaid
Seidenberg

That's 13 players. A team is allowed to dress only 22. That's more than half. Looking at those players one quickly realizes that Boston's drafting had little to do with their Cup win and it was the traded players that helped the drafted ones.


Boston management went out and filled in what the drafting didn't accomplish.

Here in Montreal our two clowns decided they were gonna reinvent the wheel and use only small and not-all-that-fast players and if that wasn't enough, they figured getting rid of "problem" players for nothing or next to nothing would improve the team.

So we come back to my post to you. The reason you think highly of Bruins drafting is because their management improved on the drafting. Here management's incompetence was masked by phenomenal drafting. If I had to trade all of Boston's pick's from 03 to 07 for Timmins I wouldn't do it. So your little exercise about picking this player or that player off the Bruins is meaningless. If Bergeon was on our drafted list he would not be the best of our drafted players. Neither would Lucic. Jeeze, I can remember awhile ago, me saying I would take Lucic over Lats any day of the week and many on this board didn't agree. they claimed Lats was the better player and Lats isn't even in the top 10 of Timmins picks. So how good can Lucic be?

Now, I've been including Gauthier with gainey. In all fairness I think Gauthier has been a victim of Gainey's colossal stupidity. Maybe he advised Gainey to go with smurfs, maybe he didn't but I've seen a change with him at the helm. He got Cole, he traded Cammy for Bourque, he went after Emelin. Just for those moves I would give Gauthier one more year. See what he does.
I understand your point but we'll agree to disagree on that topic. I see Boston list and aside from Chara and Thomas who are BIG time contributors, I'd say that the others were clearly complementary to the draftees and not the other way round. As far as Lats vs Lucic is going, well in all fairness, Lats would be in your top 10 if he would not have been injured. For Gauthier and Gainey, well if we're not in the playoffs, Gauthier improvisation this year will cost him his job. Whether it's fair or not. As if being in hockey means it's always fair whether it's a coach or a GM losing his job. Tons of times we can say that the new hired guy benefit from the past management who was so bad when they were fired....So as far as I'm concerned, whether it's fair or not, I have all the trouble in the world to dissociate Gauthier and Gainey EVEN if I admit that Gauthier has done a better job....I'm just not sure whether it's because he's not that bad, or because Gainey was really bad.....When a guy goes from assistant GM, director of pro scouting and just a right hand of a guy, and then they trade positions, I'm sorry but I'll be more encline to think that they share the same views and agree most of the time COMPARED to the analysis that they probably disagree a whole lot and just want to challenge each other. I'm sorry, but if I'm your director of pro scouting and man of confidence, I would have NOT make you traded for Gomez. And CLEARLY not for McDonagh. And the day that we went Smurfsville, I'm sorry, but again, this transition had to be okay with the majority of people and clearly it should have been okay with your right hand man. But I also understand that being a right hand man and being THE man, is two different things. In charge, Gauthier goes and get the people he wants, he just doesn't respond to what Gainey wants to do. So honestly, I am expecting him to be gone at year's end. If he stays, well he better make the right choice for the coach. And he better make this team what he wanted them to be, which is top tier. Enough promises. Enough excuses.

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01-31-2012, 05:39 PM
  #233
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I would still take Perron before Pacioretty.

I love pacioretty and the way he plays but we don't have anyone with David's skillset on this team and we really need that kind of talent.

We need Game-breaking skilled players.

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01-31-2012, 05:51 PM
  #234
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I would still take Perron before Pacioretty.

I love pacioretty and the way he plays but we don't have anyone with David's skillset on this team and we really need that kind of talent.

We need Game-breaking skilled players.
Perron has game breaking skills? On what planet is that?

Since when is a 45 point guy a "game breaker"?

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01-31-2012, 06:10 PM
  #235
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Perron has game breaking skills? On what planet is that?

Since when is a 45 point guy a "game breaker"?
While he may not be a game breaker, lets not forget Perron had 50 and 47 points seasons when Pacc was still a AHLer...

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01-31-2012, 06:36 PM
  #236
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I understand your point but we'll agree to disagree on that topic. I see Boston list and aside from Chara and Thomas who are BIG time contributors, I'd say that the others were clearly complementary to the draftees and not the other way round. As far as Lats vs Lucic is going, well in all fairness, Lats would be in your top 10 if he would not have been injured.
As far as Boston vs Montreal goes, I think we come out ahead (at least at this stage when looking at the players who are in the league now anyway.)

I also don't think it makes sense to compare the Lucic pick to Lats. I'd do it our best vs. theirs. It shakes out like this:

Price vs Kessel
Subban vs Lucic
Halak vs Bergeron
MaxPac vs Krejic
AK vs Marchand

Pretty even so far. Personally I'd take our players but it's debatable and you could certainly argue that Boston's group listed here is better. McD really belongs in this top group but we'll leave him for the second as he's basically a rookie right now. Also, a lot of these guys are are still young in their careers so it's tough to gauge at this point. But when we look deeper Montreal is clearly better overall.

McD vs. Versteeg
S Kosti vs. Sobotka
Grabs vs Stuart
Lats vs Henwick
Lapierre, O'Byrne, Chipchura, D'Agostini, Emelin...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
For Gauthier and Gainey, well if we're not in the playoffs, Gauthier improvisation this year will cost him his job. Whether it's fair or not. As if being in hockey means it's always fair whether it's a coach or a GM losing his job. Tons of times we can say that the new hired guy benefit from the past management who was so bad when they were fired....So as far as I'm concerned, whether it's fair or not, I have all the trouble in the world to dissociate Gauthier and Gainey EVEN if I admit that Gauthier has done a better job....I'm just not sure whether it's because he's not that bad, or because Gainey was really bad.....When a guy goes from assistant GM, director of pro scouting and just a right hand of a guy, and then they trade positions, I'm sorry but I'll be more encline to think that they share the same views and agree most of the time COMPARED to the analysis that they probably disagree a whole lot and just want to challenge each other. I'm sorry, but if I'm your director of pro scouting and man of confidence, I would have NOT make you traded for Gomez. And CLEARLY not for McDonagh. And the day that we went Smurfsville, I'm sorry, but again, this transition had to be okay with the majority of people and clearly it should have been okay with your right hand man. But I also understand that being a right hand man and being THE man, is two different things. In charge, Gauthier goes and get the people he wants, he just doesn't respond to what Gainey wants to do. So honestly, I am expecting him to be gone at year's end. If he stays, well he better make the right choice for the coach. And he better make this team what he wanted them to be, which is top tier. Enough promises. Enough excuses.
I think Gauthier should be gone too. I've read your posts on this and I think you're absolutely right that the guy needs to go.

I'm still curious as to whether or not you agree with the principle of rebuilding though. Sometimes it seems like your for it and other times it doesn't. I saw you defend the Kaberle move and then criticize it. I'm not sure if you're arguing from the standpoint on short-term benefits on one side vs long term on the other but I'm curious as to which direction you think this team should take.

I firmly believe that we need to make better use of our best asset (once again I agree it's Timmins) and give him more ammo to make better moves. More staff is fine but I think we need higher picks and more trades for prospects with his input. The guy has been right on the money most of the time so I don't see why we don't give him more to work with.

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01-31-2012, 08:12 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
While he may not be a game breaker, lets not forget Perron had 50 and 47 points seasons when Pacc was still a AHLer...
and power forwards are notorious at taking longer to develop so Pacioretty only really starting to reach his potential in the last 1.5 seasons is pretty much right where he should be.

I like Perron, but Pacioretty does offer us something we hadn't had since Corson was here for his first time.

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02-02-2012, 05:47 AM
  #238
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timmins probably need to start swinging for the fences in 3rd round and up, maybe even second round. we have drafted enough good to average nhl players, give me game-breaking talent not trev

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02-02-2012, 07:15 AM
  #239
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While he may not be a game breaker, lets not forget Perron had 50 and 47 points seasons when Pacc was still a AHLer...
Do you want a guy that gets to the NHL faster or one taht ends up a much better player. Right now no NHL GM would take Perron ahead of Pacioretty.

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02-02-2012, 07:19 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
timmins probably need to start swinging for the fences in 3rd round and up, maybe even second round. we have drafted enough good to average nhl players, give me game-breaking talent not trev
Getting an NHLer past the 1st round is automatically a good pick. Guys like Avtsin MacMillan Prybil Gallagher Nygren Quailer Simila Missiaen Walsh are "swing for the fences" picks.

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02-02-2012, 07:25 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

I firmly believe that we need to make better use of our best asset (once again I agree it's Timmins) and give him more ammo to make better moves. More staff is fine but I think we need higher picks and more trades for prospects with his input. The guy has been right on the money most of the time so I don't see why we don't give him more to work with.
You need a decent GM in place for that. Since the first half of Serge Savard's tenure when can we say we had a decent - not great or good - but simply decent GM?

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