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Zids Unhappy; Possible Waive No-Trade

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Old
02-01-2012, 10:17 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Not let him rot in the press box? Find something that works? Let Fletcher know he can't work with him and to make a move. We aren't privy to all that's going on but I'd suspect if Yeo would have made it known he can't work with him and to find a way, it would have been done by now.
You'd suspect wrong.

If you really need a full explanation for why that's ridiculously off-base, see my lengthy diatribe from the trade suggestions thread dealing specifically with that fallacy.

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02-01-2012, 10:19 AM
  #52
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Don't really need to, to be honest.

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02-01-2012, 10:24 AM
  #53
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People need to stop with this logic:

Something is wrong.

It has been wrong for a while.

Therefore no one has put any effort into fixing it.

Therefore everyone is horrible because they just ignore problems.



Just because something is broken doesn't mean that no one has tried to fix things. My wife's computer randomly reboots under a rather specific configuration. I've spent probably around 25 hours trying to figure out why, and attempt different fixes, but it still does the exact same thing. Ultimately the solution is going to be to replace the mobo and RAM. By half the people on this forum's logic, I'm a horrible computer guy because I haven't made any effort to fix the problem on that computer and have just completely ignored the problem.

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02-01-2012, 10:30 AM
  #54
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i don't buy for one bit that Zids can't play his game, remember that awesome game he had a while back i believe he got 3 assists was a +3? yeo praised him, i think zids doesn't buy into the team concept and doesn't do what he needs to do at both ends of the ice.

i see guys like spurgeon who work their ***** off get ice time because he has earned it, he joins the rush just fine, i think Zids doesn't want to contribute to the whole game plan and yeo has been trying to send a message to him and he doesn't want any part of it.

through out this year Zids has been good at time and awful at others, i just think Yeo is tired of trying to send that message, and i think a part of it is the whole team feels it too.

there is really no credible reason for not being able to win with our most skilled blue liner, i think its his attitude, yeo alluded to this with the russo interview, he said Zanon worked his way into the line up with his work in practice.

as far as trading him its not really that simple, for one he has a nmc so he can't go anywhere unless he wants to, and two the offer has to be right, i think for most of the year the hope was that he would start regaining his old form start contributing more and start being a better part of the team, that hasn't happened and he was scratched. Then the team all of the sudden won two very hard games where they played with the resilience we saw earlier in the year, and i feel that Zids was hoping they lose but when they won he got scared because he might be sitting long term like lundin (who has more right to ***** then zidz but hasnt thus far)

in all honesty if he gets moved i'll have to react to the whole trade, i want him gone, but then i wanted KJ gone and now like all hell i'm wishing we never made that trade.

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02-01-2012, 10:40 AM
  #55
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I don't think three games is rotting in the press box over an 82 game season.

There is a lot of incomplete information. We weren't in there watching practices, so we can't see how Zids was working to get back into the lineup. We don't know how Yeo was communicating to Zids throughout the year.

If I'm going to guess, perhaps Yeo wasn't clear and direct with Zidlicky. Being a younger coach, that wouldn't surprise me, that he might avoid that confrontation or not know how to handle veteran players with big paychecks and big egos. Perhaps he needed to have a sit down with Zids and go over his expectations very clearly. Maybe there's a language barrier issue. Maybe Yeo DID sit down with Zids but didn't tell him what he wanted to hear. I have no idea.

All I know is, Zids went public which is a big no-no. Clearly that caused an issue last year with Havlat resulting in a trade. I'm guessing Zids is doing the same thing because he wants out.

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02-01-2012, 10:46 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
as far as trading him its not really that simple, for one he has a nmc so he can't go anywhere unless he wants to, and two the offer has to be right, i think for most of the year the hope was that he would start regaining his old form start contributing more and start being a better part of the team, that hasn't happened and he was scratched. Then the team all of the sudden won two very hard games where they played with the resilience we saw earlier in the year, and i feel that Zids was hoping they lose but when they won he got scared because he might be sitting long term like lundin (who has more right to ***** then zidz but hasnt thus far)

in all honesty if he gets moved i'll have to react to the whole trade, i want him gone, but then i wanted KJ gone and now like all hell i'm wishing we never made that trade.
He doesn't have a NMC, which is a very important point. While it appears Russo misreported in the past that his NTC would expire at the halfway point of his deal (1/1/12) it is certainly not a NMC. With a NTC, the Wild still have the option to waive him and send him to Houston. If we give up on getting value back for him, or he refuses to waive his NTC, he could be placed on waivers where it's likely a team would grab him for free. While a NTC gives him some protection, the team still has options that they wouldn't under a NMC.

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02-01-2012, 11:06 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by GORGO View Post
This team is full of quiter's and it's obvious he's not communicating with his players cause Zid's isn't the first player to publicly or in Private complain about the coach's lack of leadership/communicaton..
Who else has complained?

As well, a lot of that has to be on the team and the players as well. We have no captain really, and we don't have a lot of horses to keep up with other teams, especially on the blueline. We are limited by who we have that is ready.

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02-01-2012, 11:10 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
He doesn't have a NMC, which is a very important point. While it appears Russo misreported in the past that his NTC would expire at the halfway point of his deal (1/1/12) it is certainly not a NMC. With a NTC, the Wild still have the option to waive him and send him to Houston. If we give up on getting value back for him, or he refuses to waive his NTC, he could be placed on waivers where it's likely a team would grab him for free. While a NTC gives him some protection, the team still has options that they wouldn't under a NMC.
my mistake, that is better for us then.

still i think he would like to play for TR again, or berry trotz i just don't really care if we max his value, i think he can fetch a 2nd or a struggling player on another team ala Lats style.

as long as we don't give up a prime asset to get him gone i'm ok with him being moved

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02-01-2012, 11:43 AM
  #59
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Zidlicky was scratched because he had several bad games in a row and was a ridiculos -5 or something in the previous two games before he was scratched. He was scratched because the wild needed to get him some extra motivation and get his game going.

Unfortunately for him the team looked much better without him. He essentially got beat out by a bunch of mediocre rookie defensemen.

Yeo and Fletch definitely could have handled this better but Zid is a large part of the mess that makes up the wild d unit.

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02-01-2012, 12:32 PM
  #60
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Zidlicky's no bigger a part of the joke we call a defense than anyone else. Its so easy to criticize him though. Look no further than Russo. He's so critical of Zidlicky's play. Any mess-up, he's on his case, whether its a tweet, article, or both. Nick Schultz? Jared Spurgeon? You don't see it. He was on Zanon's case earlier this season as well. But its easy for Russo to criticize Zidlicky. He's the most expensive d-man on this team, and statistically he's the most underwhelming compared to an "average" season. He's in his mid-30s, so there's not the same "hope" towards the future like Prosser/Falk/Spurgeon. He's not a pending UFA like Zanon/Stoner/Lundin, so there's not that "we can wait him out" mentality. And he's not our longest tenured player who's got a letter on his jersey, is much more of a fan favorite, and has been much more willing with the media.

We were understandably not aggressive last off-season in trying to improve our defense, took a no-risk gamble on Lundin and he can't even crack the line-up. Wanted to give Scandella a chance and he's in Houston. This defense needed both those guys to play significant roles to be successful, and neither are in the line-up. Zidlicky just happens to be the scape-goat and finally gave into his frustrations to go public. He is right that he's mis-utilized and our PP sucks. He's right that he can't play his game with our complete lack of puck possession/offensive pressure. And by no means am I blaming Yeo for everything because nobody has looked comfortable with Zidlicky as their partner, and we're missing half our top-6 so our puck possession is obviously going to struggle(though it hasn't been good enough all year).

The best part is this fiasco shouldn't last into next season. Can't trade him? Buy him out. No excuse for Zidlicky to be in this organization next season unless Yeo's willing to forgive and Zidlicky manages to redeem himself, but I don't see those both happening.

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02-01-2012, 12:53 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota View Post
Everything I've heard about Zanon indicates that he's a hard worker through and through.

Where have you heard of him showing disdain for the organization?
Last trade deadline... He made statements such that he wanted out.

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02-01-2012, 12:57 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saywut View Post
Zidlicky's no bigger a part of the joke we call a defense than anyone else. Its so easy to criticize him though. Look no further than Russo. He's so critical of Zidlicky's play. Any mess-up, he's on his case, whether its a tweet, article, or both. Nick Schultz? Jared Spurgeon? You don't see it. He was on Zanon's case earlier this season as well. But its easy for Russo to criticize Zidlicky. He's the most expensive d-man on this team, and statistically he's the most underwhelming compared to an "average" season. He's in his mid-30s, so there's not the same "hope" towards the future like Prosser/Falk/Spurgeon. He's not a pending UFA like Zanon/Stoner/Lundin, so there's not that "we can wait him out" mentality. And he's not our longest tenured player who's got a letter on his jersey, is much more of a fan favorite, and has been much more willing with the media.

We were understandably not aggressive last off-season in trying to improve our defense, took a no-risk gamble on Lundin and he can't even crack the line-up. Wanted to give Scandella a chance and he's in Houston. This defense needed both those guys to play significant roles to be successful, and neither are in the line-up. Zidlicky just happens to be the scape-goat and finally gave into his frustrations to go public. He is right that he's mis-utilized and our PP sucks. He's right that he can't play his game with our complete lack of puck possession/offensive pressure. And by no means am I blaming Yeo for everything because nobody has looked comfortable with Zidlicky as their partner, and we're missing half our top-6 so our puck possession is obviously going to struggle(though it hasn't been good enough all year).

The best part is this fiasco shouldn't last into next season. Can't trade him? Buy him out. No excuse for Zidlicky to be in this organization next season unless Yeo's willing to forgive and Zidlicky manages to redeem himself, but I don't see those both happening.
I honestly don't know what you're getting at with some of this.

Russo doesn't criticize Spurgeon? What would he criticize him for? For playing like a second pairing defenseman who makes a couple mistakes but rarely ends up costing his team? News flash on that, that's what he is, is more than what's expected of him, and the furthest you can get from a problem on this roster.

Russo didn't criticize Schultz when Schultz was playing poorly, but there's a reason the past tense is used there. Schultz hasn't been a problem for weeks. He's played a solid game for the past half dozen to dozen games.

Lundin isn't exactly "failing to crack the lineup." There's something going on with Lundin, otherwise a discontented (and anti-system) Zid would not have been playing while Lundin warmed Sheppard's old throne.

So, to reiterate my first statement, I'm not sure where you're coming from, or where you're trying to go with this.

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02-01-2012, 01:37 PM
  #63
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I'm going to jump in with my own personal observations...

Back when we had Marc-Andre Bergeron and he was paired with Zidlicky on the power play, things were going well. Zidlicky saw the ice, could easily determine if he had a shooting lane, and if not, pass the puck to MAB.

That season, 2008-2009;
MAREK ZIDLICKY 76gp 12g 30a 42p -12 10 PPGs 1 ENG
MARC-ANDRE BERGERON 72gp 14g 18a 32p +5. 7 PPGs 0 ENG

Arguably, Zidlicky's best season with the Wild and yet, he was STILL a -12. Marc-Andre "I suck at Defense" Bergeron was a PLUS 5.

The next season, without MAB, Zidlicky was a -16, with only 4 PPGs and 6 goals. Relatively dismal figures for a Power Play Quarterback.

Two snide, side points; Anyone who was flaming me on the WMBs for saying Zidlicky was worthless even in 08-09 can kiss my ass. Anyone who was flaming me on the WMBs for saying MAB was worth twice his salary can also kiss my ass.

Now, for my point?

Zidlicky is an idiot. The best thing about Marek Zidlicky is the Youngblood auto-correct to Mark Idiocy.

1. He's been sheltered for most of his NHL career by players who either are more of a threat on the PP (MAB) or better defensively. He's always been a minus player.
2. I've never actually seen him run a power play effectively. MAB was always way more vocal on the ice during a PP, than Zidlicky was... After MAB went away, our powerplay basically turned to ****.
3. His play even strength is junk. Always has been, even when he was with Nashville.
4. His play this season has been horrible. Frankly, I've lost count of the number of times that he passes the puck immediately back to the person who just passed it TO him.

One notable memory is that Koivu passes the puck to Zids because there were three Edmonton players in his shooting lane. There were ZERO in Zids way. Zidlicky had a straight shot to a screened goalie (Khabi) and... He passes it right back to Koivu. Koivu passes it right back to him, because his shooting lane hasn't changed. Zids tosses it RIGHT BACK TO KOIVU. Koivu shoots, shot blocked, puck cleared (and actually out...)

During that sequence, Zidlicky had two prime shooting opportunities which he didn't take. The first, he had a clear shot at the goalie. The second, he actually had a screen (Brodziak? don't remember) with open net on either side of Khabi.

This very specific example is indicative of his play this season and last. Without someone who is perceived as a bigger threat on the other side of the ice from him, he doesn't know what to do.

Simply put, he also isn't a Power Play Quarterback.

He has also lost the ability to see the ice due to him being the only "perceived" threat on the blue line during a power play.

Simply put...

He needs to go to a team that has a major threat on the point already.

However, I may be the only one that sees that...

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02-01-2012, 01:44 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
I honestly don't know what you're getting at with some of this.

Russo doesn't criticize Spurgeon? What would he criticize him for? For playing like a second pairing defenseman who makes a couple mistakes but rarely ends up costing his team? News flash on that, that's what he is, is more than what's expected of him, and the furthest you can get from a problem on this roster.

Russo didn't criticize Schultz when Schultz was playing poorly, but there's a reason the past tense is used there. Schultz hasn't been a problem for weeks. He's played a solid game for the past half dozen to dozen games.

Lundin isn't exactly "failing to crack the lineup." There's something going on with Lundin, otherwise a discontented (and anti-system) Zid would not have been playing while Lundin warmed Sheppard's old throne.

So, to reiterate my first statement, I'm not sure where you're coming from, or where you're trying to go with this.
The point is Zidlicky is not the problem, but is the easy scapegoat. I'm not saying Russo should criticize Schultz/Spurgeon like he does Zidlicky, but its a fact he's more critical on Zidlicky and Zanon than the rest(and i re-iterate, its easier for him to target these guys). They're all out of place, they all make mistakes, we knew this group would struggle.

And yes, Lundin is failing to crack this line-up. What's troubling is Rick Wilson had him in Tampa too, so if there was any problem he should've known about it. Just another poor talent evaluation, though thankfully its a 1-year deal like Sykora so it won't hurt us.

But really, it is all moot because Zidlicky's not going to be here past this "evaluation" season, and these recent actions all but confirmed it. Its good to know there will be change. Hopefully our talent evaluation works out better than it has in the past though. I mean, Chuck Fletcher did re-sign this guy, he did trade significant assets for Cam Barker, and he did sign Mike Lundin.

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02-01-2012, 01:52 PM
  #65
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While I may not disagree with much of your post Bozak, the following statement isn't right:

Quote:
1. He's been sheltered for most of his NHL career by players who either are more of a threat on the PP (MAB) or better defensively. He's always been a minus player.
His stats with Nashville:

Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM +/-
2003-04 Nashville Predators NHL 82 14 39 53 82 -16 Rookie Year
2005-06 Nashville Predators NHL 67 12 37 49 82 8
2006-07 Nashville Predators NHL 79 4 26 30 72 8
2007-08 Nashville Predators NHL 79 5 38 43 63 -5

Outside of his rookie year, he wasn't a minus player, even on one of the lowest scoring teams in the league.

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02-01-2012, 01:55 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by saywut View Post
The point is Zidlicky is not the problem, but is the easy scapegoat. I'm not saying Russo should criticize Schultz/Spurgeon like he does Zidlicky, but its a fact he's more critical on Zidlicky and Zanon than the rest(and i re-iterate, its easier for him to target these guys). They're all out of place, they all make mistakes, we knew this group would struggle.

And yes, Lundin is failing to crack this line-up. What's troubling is Rick Wilson had him in Tampa too, so if there was any problem he should've known about it. Just another poor talent evaluation, though thankfully its a 1-year deal like Sykora so it won't hurt us.

But really, it is all moot because Zidlicky's not going to be here past this "evaluation" season, and these recent actions all but confirmed it. Its good to know there will be change. Hopefully our talent evaluation works out better than it has in the past though. I mean, Chuck Fletcher did re-sign this guy, he did trade significant assets for Cam Barker, and he did sign Mike Lundin.
Zanon and Zid get the most criticism because they deserve the most criticism. As I mentioned several times last night on a different note, just because someone else screwed up doesn't mean your mistake doesn't matter.

As for Lundin, he's not failing to break the lineup. There's quite obviously something going on that is causing him to be kept out of the lineup. It's not related to his play because as bad as some of it was, he didn't play any worse than the rest of the team. There's obviously a problem somewhere, but it's not strictly related to his play.

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02-01-2012, 02:07 PM
  #67
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Bringing back these stats:

Offensive zone starts (rank in terms of most minutes / number of D men with 20gp):

2011-12: 52.6% (1 / 8)
2010-11: 46.0% (4 / 9)
2009-10: 45.5% (5 / 7)
2008-09: 56.0% (1 / 8)

Analysis: Lemaire and Yeo have sheltered the hell out of Zidlicky in terms of zone starts. Richards did not.

Quality of competition:

2011-12: -0.023 (6 / 8)
2010-11: -0.024 (5 / 9)
2009-10: 0.031 (2 / 7)
2008-09: -0.014 (5 / 9)

He's been mostly sheltered from Yeo and Lemaire and wasn't his first year with Richards but was the second year (possibly Rick Wilson influence).

Even strength points per 60 minutes TOI:

2011-12: 0.89 (1 / 8)
2010-11: 1.10 (2 / 9)
2009-10: 0.77 (2 / 7)
2008-09: 0.81 (2 / 9)

Fairly consistent aside from a spike in 2010-11.

Power play points per 60 minutes TOI:

2011-12: 1.10 (3 / 8)
2010-11: 3.77 (3 / 9)
2009-10: 4.98 (1 / 7)
2008-09: 4.20 (2 / 9)

Fairly consistent aside from a severe drop this year.

----

Okay so I had all those stats last week before his tantrum, and it's clear that Zidlicky's main problem has to be on the PP. But everyone has sucked on the PP, especially on defense.

Now that could be systems related. Probably is actually. Sydor? Yeo? Who knows.

Corsi Relative to Competition 5-on-5:

2011-12: 9.8 (1 / 8)
2010-11: -3.8 (6 / 9)
2009-10: 1.4 (3 / 7)
2008-09: 14.3 (2 / 9)

WOAH. See what happens with competent NHL coaching? You take average numbers and make them sparkling by managing matchups. Although Zidlicky leading the defense in Relative Corsi yet still not getting ice time is a bit odd this year.

ES TOI/60:

2011-12: 15.90 (3 / 8)
2010-11: 15.47 (4 / 9)
2009-10: 16.92 (2 / 7)
2008-09: 16.52 (3 / 9)

For all the talk of ice time, he's still getting a lot relatively speaking. His numbers clearly show he's a second pairing guy, but 3rd on this team at even strength behind Lundin and Falk.

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02-01-2012, 02:24 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
I'm going to jump in with my own personal observations...

Back when we had Marc-Andre Bergeron and he was paired with Zidlicky on the power play, things were going well. Zidlicky saw the ice, could easily determine if he had a shooting lane, and if not, pass the puck to MAB.

That season, 2008-2009;
MAREK ZIDLICKY 76gp 12g 30a 42p -12 10 PPGs 1 ENG
MARC-ANDRE BERGERON 72gp 14g 18a 32p +5. 7 PPGs 0 ENG

Arguably, Zidlicky's best season with the Wild and yet, he was STILL a -12. Marc-Andre "I suck at Defense" Bergeron was a PLUS 5.

The next season, without MAB, Zidlicky was a -16, with only 4 PPGs and 6 goals. Relatively dismal figures for a Power Play Quarterback.

Two snide, side points; Anyone who was flaming me on the WMBs for saying Zidlicky was worthless even in 08-09 can kiss my ass. Anyone who was flaming me on the WMBs for saying MAB was worth twice his salary can also kiss my ass.

Now, for my point?

Zidlicky is an idiot. The best thing about Marek Zidlicky is the Youngblood auto-correct to Mark Idiocy.

1. He's been sheltered for most of his NHL career by players who either are more of a threat on the PP (MAB) or better defensively. He's always been a minus player.
2. I've never actually seen him run a power play effectively. MAB was always way more vocal on the ice during a PP, than Zidlicky was... After MAB went away, our powerplay basically turned to ****.
3. His play even strength is junk. Always has been, even when he was with Nashville.
4. His play this season has been horrible. Frankly, I've lost count of the number of times that he passes the puck immediately back to the person who just passed it TO him.

One notable memory is that Koivu passes the puck to Zids because there were three Edmonton players in his shooting lane. There were ZERO in Zids way. Zidlicky had a straight shot to a screened goalie (Khabi) and... He passes it right back to Koivu. Koivu passes it right back to him, because his shooting lane hasn't changed. Zids tosses it RIGHT BACK TO KOIVU. Koivu shoots, shot blocked, puck cleared (and actually out...)

During that sequence, Zidlicky had two prime shooting opportunities which he didn't take. The first, he had a clear shot at the goalie. The second, he actually had a screen (Brodziak? don't remember) with open net on either side of Khabi.

This very specific example is indicative of his play this season and last. Without someone who is perceived as a bigger threat on the other side of the ice from him, he doesn't know what to do.

Simply put, he also isn't a Power Play Quarterback.

He has also lost the ability to see the ice due to him being the only "perceived" threat on the blue line during a power play.

Simply put...

He needs to go to a team that has a major threat on the point already.

However, I may be the only one that sees that...
I wish we still had MAB. I wasn't happy when we let him go. Not sure if it was DR or CF though. I wanna say it was DR that let him go.

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02-01-2012, 03:35 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by WILDhockeyfan View Post
I wish we still had MAB. I wasn't happy when we let him go. Not sure if it was DR or CF though. I wanna say it was DR that let him go.
DR, naturally... We are still paying for his genius

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02-01-2012, 03:46 PM
  #70
bozak911
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Originally Posted by Czech in Hockey View Post
DR, naturally... We are still paying for his genius
Both Risebrough and Fletcher, actually...

Risebrough didn't extend him while he was GM and Fletcher didn't see him in their plans after he took over.

MAB signed in Montreal for the 09-10 season.

MAB didn't play for the first half of the next season until being signed by Tampa Bay.

Both teams often used him as the 7th defenseman/powerplay specialist.

Which... That's all he is... a Power Play Specialist.

Still worth more than Zidlicky...


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02-01-2012, 03:50 PM
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thestonedkoala
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I still wish we had Foster or Skoula.

But on Zids, this was a disaster when it began

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02-01-2012, 03:54 PM
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DeuceMN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
Both Risebrough and Fletcher, actually...

Risebrough didn't extend him while he was GM and Fletcher didn't see him in their plans after he took over.

MAB signed in Montreal for the 09-10 season.

MAB didn't play for the first half of the next season until being signed by Tampa Bay.

Both teams often used him as the 7th defenseman/powerplay specialist.

Which... That's all he is... a Power Play Specialist.

Still worth more than Zidlicky...

You're right on that, I had forgotten it was in the '09 season.

I wish we had kept MAB too, even back then. I never understood why so many people were down on him, and he was always better defensively than Z-wreck.

It's time to take Zidlicky out back and put him out of his misery. He's like a rabid dog now tainting everything he touches...

I do feel a little bad for the guy but he is a pain-in-the-*** and his ego needs to be kept in check.

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02-01-2012, 04:05 PM
  #73
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Zidlucky and wellman for blum.straight up

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02-01-2012, 04:17 PM
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God, how bad is our D history (and opinion of current options) when people are yearning for MAB, Foster and Skoula back ???

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02-01-2012, 04:28 PM
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bozak911
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Originally Posted by rafterman View Post
God, how bad is our D history (and opinion of current options) when people are yearning for MAB, Foster and Skoula back ???
Pretty much...

I'd take...

Foster over MAB over Skoula over Zidlicky

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