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Old
02-01-2012, 03:55 AM
  #51
FiveForDrawingBlood
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Maybe pair Weber with Gill? Subban played much better last year with Gill and Diaz this season has suprised. I would trade Gill for 2nd round pick but can re-sign him in summer

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02-01-2012, 04:18 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Develop what? There's nothing there.
So, we give up on a kid for the gazillionth time ?

and why ? cause you see flaws in a kids game ?


the KID got the shot already, he's a decent skater (not awesome, decent), decent passer (again, decent, not amazingly awesome)...

what's the worst that could happen ? he'll end up playing 10 min a night on the 3rd pair + PP ? so what... we need 5th and 6th D anyway...


but no, lets trade him instead for a 4th rounder... and hope for that 4th rounder to become a "solid" 3rd pairing D or 4th line winger...

if we're patient enough and let him developp into that (unlikely)...

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02-01-2012, 05:54 AM
  #53
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A lot of us seem to be short sighted. I like Webere and yes I think we can all agree he's not playing up to par right now but then again who is? The majority of the team is very underwhelming this season so it's not like the team is firing on all cylinders and Weber is the weak link or anything. We seem to want to find a whipping boy during times like these and then ship him away for whatever we can get then whine about whatever GM traded him away years later when the player blossoms somewhere else. A little patience is required when dealing with young players, I'm sure it can't be easy be moved around from the fourth line to defence constantly especially when you're trying to learn the NHL game. I think Weber has a good future ahead of him and he already has a bullet of a shot and I'd be sad to see him go.

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02-01-2012, 06:25 AM
  #54
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I don't think Weber has the right attitude. Saying you're better than some of your teammates isn't the smartest thing. But I feel for him though. He's been used poorly. He's certainly better than what he's showing right now.

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02-01-2012, 07:42 AM
  #55
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im surprised so many are willing to give up on LJV. yet, im not really...

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02-01-2012, 08:14 AM
  #56
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Small and unidimensional.

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02-01-2012, 08:23 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
im surprised so many are willing to give up on LJV. yet, im not really...
I like Weber and want him to succeed, but how much patience is too much? He's had all last year and all this year to secure a spot on our blueline and hasn't been able to do it, and it's not like he hasn't gotten a fair chance. It seems like every time he starts to look like he's grabbed a spot, he falters.

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02-01-2012, 08:37 AM
  #58
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I've lost all confidence in Weber. Pretty much out of hope too. He'll likely stick in the NHL, but he's not part of a winning top 6. Frankly his development has been snail's paced at best.

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02-01-2012, 08:41 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveForDrawingBlood View Post
Maybe pair Weber with Gill? Subban played much better last year with Gill and Diaz this season has suprised. I would trade Gill for 2nd round pick but can re-sign him in summer
Everyone looks much worse when they play with Gill, can't wait until he is gone.

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02-01-2012, 08:56 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I like Weber and want him to succeed, but how much patience is too much? He's had all last year and all this year to secure a spot on our blueline and hasn't been able to do it, and it's not like he hasn't gotten a fair chance. It seems like every time he starts to look like he's grabbed a spot, he falters.
that's all fair and good but this is the magical number: 23.

he's 23. most d-man don't become solid NHL d-men until they are 25, you can't expect a guy to be a regular at 23 unless he pisses talent. he probably was brought up too quick from hamilton in the first place. and yes i know he spent almost two full seasons there

not sure if that works because of the waivers and such, but wait until the season is over, send him down, let him spend the next year in hamilton then bring him back at the end of next season. right now he's got crap value. if anything, sending him back down to hamilton to continue his development might raise his value a bit.

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02-01-2012, 09:00 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't think Weber has the right attitude. Saying you're better than some of your teammates isn't the smartest thing. But I feel for him though. He's been used poorly. He's certainly better than what he's showing right now.
So you'd prefer a guy that says he sucks and should be sitting?

Maybe the method wasn't the right one but I agree with him, he has contributed more than Campoli Spacek Gill so far this year.

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02-01-2012, 09:03 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Pernell Karl View Post
Everyone looks much worse when they play with Gill, can't wait until he is gone.
Subban looked very good with Gill last year 2nd half...but he seems to have lost half a step since then.

I think it's definitely time to move him and look for a younger UFA(Allen, Mitchell etc) that can play 20 minutes a night and PK.

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02-01-2012, 09:17 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Why is everyone enamored with this kid. Nice shot but has little else to offer. Lacks poise in the offensive zone, very shaky positioning, zero takeaway ability and slow to turn on his skates.
This plus says to much or was hoping for a trade.

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02-01-2012, 09:31 AM
  #64
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Watch him play. Keep your eyes ONLY on him. Take off your "I love young guys" glasses. Be critical.

Overall:
What you will see is he is reactionary, when a play happens, there is a moment of nothing..... then he reacts. At that point it is too late.

Defensive end:
Does not use positioning to make up for his lack of strength or anticipation

Neutral zone:
When he carries the puck, he often stops moving his feet in the neutral zone, looking for an open player to pass to. Momentum killer. He is no quarterback.

Offensive zone:
Passes up too many occasions to shoot (has a good shot) because he needs to get the puck in an exact spot in relation to his feet to shoot. He will just pass it back. When he does shoot, he suffers from the same problem as Subban, he does not find the lane to the net.
When he does not have the puck, he needs to constantly keep moving to keep an open lane from himself to the puck carrier, and another to the net. This makes him a threat, and forces the opposition to change the coverage on the puck carrier. He just is too static.

End Game:
The truth is this, he had his opportunity with three different head coaches and NEVER seized it with two hands. He never forced a coach to take notice and realize he was a solution.

While many people think that any young player is a super star, and they just need a chance to prove it, the hard reality is that some guys are stars, and 99% of others are not. Weber can become a useful full time NHL player, but he has to work on positioning to make up for his poor anticipation and lack of physical edge.

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02-01-2012, 09:41 AM
  #65
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The only good thing he did so far for us is snipping a few pucks over Tim Thomas shoulder. Not enough. I think he can improve though.

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02-01-2012, 09:50 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
that's all fair and good but this is the magical number: 23.

he's 23. most d-man don't become solid NHL d-men until they are 25, you can't expect a guy to be a regular at 23 unless he pisses talent. he probably was brought up too quick from hamilton in the first place. and yes i know he spent almost two full seasons there

not sure if that works because of the waivers and such, but wait until the season is over, send him down, let him spend the next year in hamilton then bring him back at the end of next season. right now he's got crap value. if anything, sending him back down to hamilton to continue his development might raise his value a bit.
That's all very true, but can we (or any team in this situation) afford to wait 2 more years for Weber to fully develop? What happens if he doesn't develop in 2 years - if at 25 he's virtually the same player he was at 23? At a certain point you have to take what you've seen on the ice and decide if it's something worth committing that time, money, roster space, etc to.

I'd compare his situation to Ryan O'Byrne - he had a chance in Montreal, did OK, but the Habs couldn't wait forever. He was traded to another team where he's having similar ups and downs, and he'll likely be traded again and again in his career...not because he's bad, but mostly because he'll never be great. Montreal got an asset for him, closed the book, and moved on. Same might come to be with Weber.

And just for the record, Weber can't be sent down anymore without going through waivers.

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02-01-2012, 10:04 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
So you'd prefer a guy that says he sucks and should be sitting?

Maybe the method wasn't the right one but I agree with him, he has contributed more than Campoli Spacek Gill so far this year.
There's a fine line between someone saying he's better than his teammates and saying he sucks so he deserves to be scratched.
There's always the option of him not saying anything, working his butt off and grabbing the opportunity given to him.

You're right, Campoli has been crap. He's being scratched anyways.
Spacek is gone, and no Weber has not been better than Kaberle.
Gill is garbage, and I'm the first to want him gone. As bad as he's been, Weber hasn't been a whole lot better. I'd have no problem placing Weber there instead of him though, but keeping Gill in position until deadline raises his value. Trade him, and then give Weber the rest of the year as a regular D. We shouldn't have re-signed Gill to begin with, but that's too late.

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02-01-2012, 01:00 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
Watch him play. Keep your eyes ONLY on him. Take off your "I love young guys" glasses. Be critical.

Overall:
What you will see is he is reactionary, when a play happens, there is a moment of nothing..... then he reacts. At that point it is too late.

Defensive end:
Does not use positioning to make up for his lack of strength or anticipation

Neutral zone:
When he carries the puck, he often stops moving his feet in the neutral zone, looking for an open player to pass to. Momentum killer. He is no quarterback.

Offensive zone:
Passes up too many occasions to shoot (has a good shot) because he needs to get the puck in an exact spot in relation to his feet to shoot. He will just pass it back. When he does shoot, he suffers from the same problem as Subban, he does not find the lane to the net.
When he does not have the puck, he needs to constantly keep moving to keep an open lane from himself to the puck carrier, and another to the net. This makes him a threat, and forces the opposition to change the coverage on the puck carrier. He just is too static.

End Game:
The truth is this, he had his opportunity with three different head coaches and NEVER seized it with two hands. He never forced a coach to take notice and realize he was a solution.

While many people think that any young player is a super star, and they just need a chance to prove it, the hard reality is that some guys are stars, and 99% of others are not. Weber can become a useful full time NHL player, but he has to work on positioning to make up for his poor anticipation and lack of physical edge.
Huh, nope, no superstar... but at this point, we wont make the PO so might as well give him some ice time on D... who knows, he may end up solid enough to be our 4th D or something... if not, well 10 minutes a night as a 6th D + PP... it's not like other 6th D in the league dont have huge flaws themselves anyway...


true, but he wont learn that by playing on the 4th line, ice time ON D, has to be given...

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02-01-2012, 01:02 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's a fine line between someone saying he's better than his teammates and saying he sucks so he deserves to be scratched.
There's always the option of him not saying anything, working his butt off and grabbing the opportunity given to him.

You're right, Campoli has been crap. He's being scratched anyways.
Spacek is gone, and no Weber has not been better than Kaberle.
Gill is garbage, and I'm the first to want him gone. As bad as he's been, Weber hasn't been a whole lot better. I'd have no problem placing Weber there instead of him though, but keeping Gill in position until deadline raises his value. Trade him, and then give Weber the rest of the year as a regular D. We shouldn't have re-signed Gill to begin with, but that's too late.
Seeing how he is used, I highly doubt he sees a future for him in Montreal... all he's probably hoping for right now is a trade.

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02-01-2012, 01:58 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Huh, nope, no superstar... but at this point, we wont make the PO so might as well give him some ice time on D... who knows, he may end up solid enough to be our 4th D or something... if not, well 10 minutes a night as a 6th D + PP... it's not like other 6th D in the league dont have huge flaws themselves anyway...


true, but he wont learn that by playing on the 4th line, ice time ON D, has to be given...
One more chance for Weber. Why not at this point?

In all seriousness, do you really think that Weber has "not had his chance". When will it be enough? When he has gone through his 6th coach (already on his 4th now) who does not have the confidence to make him a "every game" player? When he is 28 years old? What excuse will be thrown around when he is not a full time D on the Habs by that point?

I agree, if the Habs are not making the playoffs, it is time to see where all the young guys are at. Play them, evaluate where they are at, make a decision. Either build with them, or use them to make your team better somehow else.

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02-01-2012, 02:21 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
One more chance for Weber. Why not at this point?

In all seriousness, do you really think that Weber has "not had his chance". When will it be enough? When he has gone through his 6th coach (already on his 4th now) who does not have the confidence to make him a "every game" player? When he is 28 years old? What excuse will be thrown around when he is not a full time D on the Habs by that point?

I agree, if the Habs are not making the playoffs, it is time to see where all the young guys are at. Play them, evaluate where they are at, make a decision. Either build with them, or use them to make your team better somehow else.
What do you mean "enough chances" ? come on now, we're not talking about a 26 or 27 years old player here...

we're talking about our youngest D, we're also talking about a kid who started the year will less than 50 games in the NHL under his belt... so yeah, enough chances ? I dont expect him to have any less than guys like Subban, Diaz or Emelin... he's not and probably never will be a Lidstrom, a Chara or a Suter, so chances are he'll take longer than those to developp... wich is perfectly fine with me... not every player will become a superstar...

just like guys like Plekanec or Kostystin werent full time NHLers at the same age, just like Gorges was weak physically in his own end at the same age... they're still no superstars, but they're all fine NHlers now...

So, really... how many more chances should he get ? easy... until we are at a point where we HAVE TO upgrade his position in order to become a contender or something... until then, he will not "cost" anything except time...

and who knows really ? maybe (insist on maybe) he'll become a solid top 4 D or something...

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02-01-2012, 04:18 PM
  #72
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What do you mean "enough chances" ? come on now, we're not talking about a 26 or 27 years old player here...

we're talking about our youngest D, we're also talking about a kid who started the year will less than 50 games in the NHL under his belt... so yeah, enough chances ? I dont expect him to have any less than guys like Subban, Diaz or Emelin... he's not and probably never will be a Lidstrom, a Chara or a Suter, so chances are he'll take longer than those to developp... wich is perfectly fine with me... not every player will become a superstar...

just like guys like Plekanec or Kostystin werent full time NHLers at the same age, just like Gorges was weak physically in his own end at the same age... they're still no superstars, but they're all fine NHlers now...

So, really... how many more chances should he get ? easy... until we are at a point where we HAVE TO upgrade his position in order to become a contender or something... until then, he will not "cost" anything except time...

and who knows really ? maybe (insist on maybe) he'll become a solid top 4 D or something...
If a guy has not shown you something special by the time he is in his 4th season pf tasting the NHL... then maybe he can become a NHL filler. If the Habs do not hold a roster spot for him, and he fits the profile of what the TEAM needs in that position, considering the guys who are the true core of the team, then no problem.

So, if you have your smallish, non-physical shooter on the roster or in the system that is showing more promise, then keeping Weber is not a good plan. You cannot have a team with 2 or 3 of those kind of players, and that is what the Habs have. Weber, Diaz, to a certain extent Subban and down the line Beaulieu. Emelin brings something different to the table.

Plekanec did not get any breaks. He earned every promotion. That is the way it should be. Kostisyn, well.... he was a high draft choice, so the Habs had to make it work or they would look worse then they already do considering his draft class. Gorges...he earned his way on the roster with consistently giving up the body and hard work. The Habs had a need for him and no other player was slotted in that role.

I know Weber will never be a superstar, only a stary-eyed fanboi teenager would think so. He may be a NHL player one day. He most definitely is not now. If the Habs do not have another player waiting to be cultivated in that spot (which I do think they do in Diaz) then by all means, keep him around.

I agree the Habs are not contenders and what does it hurt when you already are not going to the dance, but people have to stop saying he has not had his chance. It has been over 1000 days since he first broke into the consciousness of the PRO team, and still THEY do not trust him to be a full time player. You have to admit that means something.

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02-01-2012, 04:31 PM
  #73
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well for one he can't even keep the puck in the zone....every time the puck leaves the offensive zone on the pp its his fault unless its a dump from opposition.

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02-01-2012, 04:32 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I like Weber and want him to succeed, but how much patience is too much? He's had all last year and all this year to secure a spot on our blueline and hasn't been able to do it, and it's not like he hasn't gotten a fair chance. It seems like every time he starts to look like he's grabbed a spot, he falters.
go look at Dan Boyle's progression...

5 years as a pro before he established himself with greater minutes/role on his team, and this with a pretty bad lightning team.


I said it before, I'll say it again, Weber's got all the tools & the attitude/work ethic to develop into a very good top-4 pmd NHL player.

He needs time & opportunity to master how to best uses his skill set effectively as an NHL dman.

positioning, defensive zone coverage and perhaps most importantly, how to use speed/quickness/stickwork/angles are all elements he needs to develop to deal with bigger & stronger skilled forwards.

very rare for smallish dmen to develop those skills/adapt to NHL size/strength quickly, but once he does, his overall skill set is strong enough, imo, to realistically believe he'll become a very effective point producing player that can handle ~20min/game.


given our current situation, its crazy to think he is at fault for our lack of success, and if anything, being a non-playoff team should be the best situation for him... IF the team finally concedes that playoffs are a pipe dream and start to focus more actively on player development.


Weber will be a very good nhler, question is just wether he does it for us or for another team. at this point, his value is likely pretty low, so trading him just because he hasn't established himself fully after <90 NHL games would be a huge mistake.

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02-01-2012, 04:37 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
If a guy has not shown you something special by the time he is in his 4th season pf tasting the NHL... then maybe he can become a NHL filler. If the Habs do not hold a roster spot for him, and he fits the profile of what the TEAM needs in that position, considering the guys who are the true core of the team, then no problem.

So, if you have your smallish, non-physical shooter on the roster or in the system that is showing more promise, then keeping Weber is not a good plan. You cannot have a team with 2 or 3 of those kind of players, and that is what the Habs have. Weber, Diaz, to a certain extent Subban and down the line Beaulieu. Emelin brings something different to the table.

Plekanec did not get any breaks. He earned every promotion. That is the way it should be. Kostisyn, well.... he was a high draft choice, so the Habs had to make it work or they would look worse then they already do considering his draft class. Gorges...he earned his way on the roster with consistently giving up the body and hard work. The Habs had a need for him and no other player was slotted in that role.

I know Weber will never be a superstar, only a stary-eyed fanboi teenager would think so. He may be a NHL player one day. He most definitely is not now. If the Habs do not have another player waiting to be cultivated in that spot (which I do think they do in Diaz) then by all means, keep him around.

I agree the Habs are not contenders and what does it hurt when you already are not going to the dance, but people have to stop saying he has not had his chance. It has been over 1000 days since he first broke into the consciousness of the PRO team, and still THEY do not trust him to be a full time player. You have to admit that means something.
then he has two more years by your logic, unless you call years he played 3 and 5 games "seasons"...

say what you want, but at the end of the day Weber is still younger AND less experienced (NHL) than Subban, and is still younger by 2+ years than Diaz and Emelin... 1000 days ? big deal, more than half of it was in the AHL... and good chunk of his NHL days were spent at forward...



by the way Diaz is already 26 years old, aside from getting used to the NHL, he wont improve much... what you see from him now is what you will see next year, and the year after as well... seriously, how many years of developpement are you going to waste on a 26 years old rookie... come on now...

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