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ATD 2012 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
02-01-2012, 06:12 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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It depends on the power forward, really. Lindros' issue was poor hockey sense, so a smart power forward might (and I mean might not will) give them a little bit of trouble. IMO, Lidstrom's only weakness is right in front of his own net, but the power forward actually needs to get there to do any damage, something Lindros was never able to do.

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02-01-2012, 06:28 PM
  #27
markrander87
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Should I go with: Syd Howe - Stan Mikita - XXXXXX

or

Syd Howe - XXXXX - Andy Bathgate


?

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02-01-2012, 06:29 PM
  #28
TheDevilMadeMe
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I really depends on who else you draft, but Syd Howe seems like just the kind of guy Bathgate needs to be effective.

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02-01-2012, 06:45 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I really depends on who else you draft, but Syd Howe seems like just the kind of guy Bathgate needs to be effective.
I did some research on Howe, but never really found much evidence for the style people seem to think he played. Not much on defense, physical play, or puck-winning. I look forward to seeing a good bio on him...

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02-01-2012, 06:47 PM
  #30
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I did some research on Howe, but never really found much evidence for the style people seem to think he played. Not much on defense, physical play, or puck-winning. I look forward to seeing a good bio on him...
Oh, I just assumed he had those things since 70s pushed him so hard. I honestly never bothered researching him, because he always gets drafted well before I would ever consider him based on his offense.

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02-01-2012, 06:58 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Oh, I just assumed he had those things since 70s pushed him so hard. I honestly never bothered researching him, because he always gets drafted well before I would ever consider him based on his offense.
He's almost never mentioned in the books I own, and when he is, he's just a dropped name.

I found that most references just talk about the fact that he played a bunch of positions and was not related to Gordie.

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02-01-2012, 07:21 PM
  #32
markrander87
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I did some research on Howe, but never really found much evidence for the style people seem to think he played. Not much on defense, physical play, or puck-winning. I look forward to seeing a good bio on him...
For starters here is Stonebergs bio on him from last year: A couple references to his two way play.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=139


He retired a sthe NHL's all-time leading point scoere, so he was a very effective offensive player. Also there a some references refering to his all around ability etc.. which is pretty rare for players from his era:

Quote:
Originally Posted by loh
Howe was an all-around player, shifting between left wing and centre as needed, killing penalties and dropping back to play defence in a pinch. Those who watched the team closely reported that Howe's ice time with Detroit would constitute an amazing total.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times - Jan 20, 1939
Detroit went ahead again early in the second period by counting while shorthanded, Syd Howe taking a beautiful pass from XXXXXX
Quote:
Originally Posted by VI
... a two-way, passing talented HHOF three-time Stanley Cup champion who retired ironically as the NHL's all-time leading career leader in points (surpassing Stewart) the season before another player with the same last name began his career in the same city, Detroit's #8

It looks as though he was used on defense only in desperate situations. You can interpret that how you like but obviously this would also show more value in terms of defensive play for a teams leading scoere to be moved back to defense in desperate situations:

Quote:
Originally Posted by loh
Howe was an all-around player, shifting between left wing and centre as needed, killing penalties and dropping back to play defence in a pinch. Those who watched the team closely reported that Howe's ice time with Detroit would constitute an amazing total.

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02-01-2012, 07:36 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
For starters here is Stonebergs bio on him from last year: A couple references to his two way play.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=139
That's the first place I went looking for info. There was nothing really substantial there.

Quote:
He retired a sthe NHL's all-time leading point scoere, so he was a very effective offensive player. Also there a some references refering to his all around ability etc.. which is pretty rare for players from his era:

It looks as though he was used on defense only in desperate situations. You can interpret that how you like but obviously this would also show more value in terms of defensive play for a teams leading scoere to be moved back to defense in desperate situations:
There are a couple of references, some of them vague, about Syd Howe's defensive play. That's enough for me to say he's better than average defensively, but not great.

Bathgate needs a puckwinner more than he needs a defensive presence, and there is nothing there to suggest Howe can do that.


Is that quote "VI" from VanIslanders? No offense to VI, but he didn't see Howe play, so that quote is completely worthless.

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02-01-2012, 07:40 PM
  #34
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Is it necessary to have a defensive forward on the first line or can you have three offensive forwards? What line would you put your best defensive forward on? Can you have two offensive defensemen on the first line or is a defensive defenseman necessary?

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02-01-2012, 07:44 PM
  #35
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's the first place I went looking for info. There was nothing really substantial there.



There are a couple of references, some of them vague, about Syd Howe's defensive play. That's enough for me to say he's better than average defensively, but not great.

Bathgate needs a puckwinner more than he needs a defensive presence, and there is nothing there to suggest Howe can do that.


Is that quote "VI" from VanIslanders? No offense to VI, but he didn't see Howe play, so that quote is completely worthless.
Agreed with your interpretation of the quotes. For some reason, ATD canon has Howe as a really gritty player, but if that's true, there is no evidence from those quotes.

Also agree with you that Howe seems above average defensively, nothing more.

I will say that those quotes provided show Howe as a credible penalty killer.

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02-01-2012, 07:49 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Agreed with your interpretation of the quotes. For some reason, ATD canon has Howe as a really gritty player, but if that's true, there is no evidence from those quotes.

Also agree with you that Howe seems above average defensively, nothing more.

I will say that those quotes provided show Howe as a credible penalty killer.

Quote:
Howe worked as a machinist at Ford by day. He played center and left wing by night.

In 1945 he became the greatest scorer of all time in the NHL with 558 points (232 goals, 282 assists). Never flashy, just doggedly durable, Howe one of the cleverest players ever to put on skates.
A 1945 profile reads, "All in all, quite a hockey player this Mr. Howe. He might better be styled 'Wing of all Time' than to be called 'Wing of the Week'."



From The Detroit News: http://apps.detnews.com/apps/history...#ixzz1lBWtPtog

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02-01-2012, 07:55 PM
  #37
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
What do you think that proves?

It says he was not flashy. It says he was durable. It says he was clever.

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02-01-2012, 08:04 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
Is it necessary to have a defensive forward on the first line or can you have three offensive forwards? What line would you put your best defensive forward on? Can you have two offensive defensemen on the first line or is a defensive defenseman necessary?
It's nice to have, but it's the least important part in my view.

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02-01-2012, 08:10 PM
  #39
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Agreed with your interpretation of the quotes. For some reason, ATD canon has Howe as a really gritty player, but if that's true, there is no evidence from those quotes.

Also agree with you that Howe seems above average defensively, nothing more.

I will say that those quotes provided show Howe as a credible penalty killer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
What do you think that proves?

It says he was not flashy. It says he was durable. It says he was clever.



......

found something from the 10-22-1947 Ottawa Citizen:


Quote:
Quote:
In hockey he gave full credit to Nighbor, Stewart, Morenz, Richard and many others, but thought the best and most under-rated of the modern players was Howe.

From Nik Jr.

Also found from Nik Jr.:

i was searching through some old newspaper articles and i found this from the March 28, 1941 Montreal Gazette.

the column is called "Casual Closeups" and i think is by Marc T. McNeil.


Quote:
Quote:
If the Players had the Vote

It is interesting to hear the players' slant on things. For instance, take the recent NHL all-star selections that placed Bill Cowley at centre and XXXXXXX at left wing.

If the players had done the voting, it is unlikely that either Cowley or XXXXXX would have been on the 1st all-star team; certainly not XXXXX. The players would have gone almost unanimously for Syd Howe, of Detroit, as the smartest and best all-around left winger in the league this season.


Cowley might have made the grade--for they rate him highly, as the best playmaker in the league, but not the best centre, because he is not a 2 way performer, and is not as fast as many others


Smartest and BEST ALL AROUND LW IN THE LEAGUE


Also it was referenced in this thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?p=24159749

That Howe finished top 5 in Hart voting 3 times

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02-01-2012, 08:12 PM
  #40
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It depends on the power forward, really. Lindros' issue was poor hockey sense, so a smart power forward might (and I mean might not will) give them a little bit of trouble. IMO, Lidstrom's only weakness is right in front of his own net, but the power forward actually needs to get there to do any damage, something Lindros was never able to do.
So, for example, Dickie Moore and Gordie Howe?

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02-01-2012, 08:14 PM
  #41
markrander87
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Again for whatever reason as soon as I draft a player all of these question marks which were never questioned before come up. It just shows I have to work 100X harder to get any respect sometimes.

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02-01-2012, 08:15 PM
  #42
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
......

found something from the 10-22-1947 Ottawa Citizen:





From Nik Jr.

Also found from Nik Jr.:

i was searching through some old newspaper articles and i found this from the March 28, 1941 Montreal Gazette.

the column is called "Casual Closeups" and i think is by Marc T. McNeil.






Smartest and BEST ALL AROUND LW IN THE LEAGUE


Also it was referenced in this thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?p=24159749

That Howe finished top 5 in Hart voting 3 times
All stuff that I found when researching him. There's nothing in there about his style of play.

We know he was a good player.... but what kind of player?

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02-01-2012, 08:16 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Again for whatever reason as soon as I draft a player all of these question marks which were never questioned before come up. It just shows I have to work 100X harder to get any respect sometimes.
You are just unlucky to pick a guy I was going to pick.

I researched him and dismissed him. I would have brought up these issues regardless.

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02-01-2012, 08:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
So, for example, Dickie Moore and Gordie Howe?
I wouldn't call Dickie Moore a power forward. He was on the smaller side.

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02-01-2012, 08:21 PM
  #45
markrander87
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
All stuff that I found when researching him. There's nothing in there about his style of play.

We know he was a good player.... but what kind of player?
Judging from everything I read he was an all around two way player. I'm not trying to sell him as a physical bone crushing player. When I think of a modern player to compare him to he is currently undrafted so I can't use him know but he was known as an all around defensive forward who was the "cleverist player" in the game. His offence is an absolute bonus in terms of 10 straight years of at least a top 10 in goals, assists or points and retiring as the leagues all time leading point scorer.



The more I read into him the more he seems like a perfect fit with Mikita to have a high end two way 1st line.


EDIT:

Billy had his 3 years for top 5 Hart voting:

4th in 40-41,

3rd in 42-43 - Howe finished outside of top 10 scoring but finished 3rd in Hart voting. A testament to his all around game


5th in 44-45. Finished 10th in overall scoring, but again 5th in Hart voting shows he was an all around player.


Last edited by markrander87: 02-01-2012 at 08:28 PM.
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02-01-2012, 08:35 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I wouldn't call Dickie Moore a power forward. He was on the smaller side.
So Ted Lindsay isn't a power forward, despite being 2 inches shorter and being born just 6 years before Moore?

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02-01-2012, 08:41 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Again for whatever reason as soon as I draft a player all of these question marks which were never questioned before come up. It just shows I have to work 100X harder to get any respect sometimes.
Good call Rodney Dangerfield.

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02-01-2012, 08:50 PM
  #48
Dreakmur
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So Ted Lindsay isn't a power forward, despite being 2 inches shorter and being born just 6 years before Moore?
I don't think so.

In my opinion, power forwards need 3 things: Speed, Skill, and Power. It's pretty tough to overpower guys who are 3-4 inches taller and 25-30 pounds heavier that you are.


On my team, I'd consider Forsberg a power forward, since he has all 3 of those aspects. Nels Stewart, on the other hand, wouldnt be one, since he doesn't have the speed.

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02-01-2012, 08:55 PM
  #49
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I don't think so.

In my opinion, power forwards need 3 things: Speed, Skill, and Power. It's pretty tough to overpower guys who are 3-4 inches taller and 25-30 pounds heavier that you are.


On my team, I'd consider Forsberg a power forward, since he has all 3 of those aspects. Nels Stewart, on the other hand, wouldnt be one, since he doesn't have the speed.
Oh dear.

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02-01-2012, 08:57 PM
  #50
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Again for whatever reason as soon as I draft a player all of these question marks which were never questioned before come up. It just shows I have to work 100X harder to get any respect sometimes.
It's not. Sometimes people just realize things about players after researching that they didn't notice before. Hooley Smith and his playoffs this year,for instance.

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