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Habs lose 3-1. A Centre, a centre, my kingdom for a centre.

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Old
02-01-2012, 03:46 PM
  #326
JohnLennon
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Originally Posted by dutchy29 View Post
John Lennon, you are embarassing yourself, Why are Gomez's linemates not ready for a good pass? because hes inconsistent, has played like garbage for 2 years, puts no effort into 90% of his games, then when he plays a good game, you expect his linemates to share some sort of chemistry with him? come on.
Pleks and Bourque despite a bad game here or there produce, period.
I'm glad you brought solid evidence to back up your claim...

Bourque is much more inconsistent than Gomez. Gomez just had the worst year of his career last year, and everyone bases their opinions of him off that, like you are right now with your "90%" crap. He's been playing well since he got back from injury, just be happy he is finally looking good, unlike Plekanec.

I swear people just look for every opportunity they have to bash on the guy, it's pathetic.

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02-01-2012, 03:47 PM
  #327
FlyingKostitsyn
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
If money was a big issue on the team, then it would be a bigger deal that we have him. But right now it isn't. You can look at guys who are playing much worse than Gomez such as Plekanec, Campoli and Gill and not hear anything CLOSE to the complaints you hear about Gomez. It's a joke. And yes, you are a follower.
Its not just about money, its about expectations and actual performance. Plekanec has a disappointing season but he still gets his share of points. Campoli came in with little expectation, missed most of the season with injury and even tho he sucks, it doesn't really matter. Nobody expects Gill to be more than a 5th or 6th Dman and he is what he is. He still contributes on the best PK unit (same as Plekanec). Without Gill&Plekanec I'm sure we'd be last or second last in the league, they are important to the team.

Gomez however brings nothing. He was supposed to be our a top2 center however. Even after his atrocious last season he should have been 3rd line center at least.

When the Gomez trade was announced even the most biaised Bruins/Toronto/closet Nordique fans could not have predicted 3 years down the line David Desharnais would steal the guy's job and Eller would even keep him out of the 3rd line. Maxim Lapierre would be 10x more useful.

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02-01-2012, 03:50 PM
  #328
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I don't get the title. We're pretty good at centre, but we only have 2 NHL caliber defensemen.

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02-01-2012, 04:02 PM
  #329
JohnLennon
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Its not just about money, its about expectations and actual performance. Plekanec has a disappointing season but he still gets his share of points. Campoli came in with little expectation, missed most of the season with injury and even tho he sucks, it doesn't really matter. Nobody expects Gill to be more than a 5th or 6th Dman and he is what he is. He still contributes on the best PK unit (same as Plekanec). Without Gill&Plekanec I'm sure we'd be last or second last in the league, they are important to the team.

Gomez however brings nothing. He was supposed to be our a top2 center however. Even after his atrocious last season he should have been 3rd line center at least.

When the Gomez trade was announced even the most biaised Bruins/Toronto/closet Nordique fans could not have predicted 3 years down the line David Desharnais would steal the guy's job and Eller would even keep him out of the 3rd line. Maxim Lapierre would be 10x more useful.
But that's just the thing: after the worst season of his life, WHY are people's expectations of him to be a top 2 center? I mean, really? He sure is paid like one, but to expect him to put up the numbers of a top center are ridiculous in my opinion. He's played well this season. Want proof? He has the highest first-assist rate in the NHL in only 20+ games.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+5+17+18+19+20

With Scott Gomez in the lineup in the last two and a half years, the Habs have gone 90-88. Without Gomez over three years, they've gone 12-24.
With Gomez in the lineup, the Canadiens have had a team possession rate with the score tied of 53.5%. Without him, it was 44.6%

This season, in games with Gomez, the Habs at even strength have out-scored their opposition 39-31. Without, they've been out-scored 56-61. In the 19 games Montreal has played with Gomez, they've gone 8-11, which isn't great, but without, they've gone 11-19, which is way worse... as of the Detroit game. Just one game previous.

"Gomez sees favourable zone starts and his competition is below average, but the fact is that the guy also has a terrific possession rate, with a 54.3% score-tied Fenwick rate and he also leads the team in relative Corsi at 18.2 per 60 minutes (a number which is also 8th in the league)." Source: http://jetsnation.ca/2012/1/26/is-sc...underrated-yes

This visual is stunning in terms of Fenwick production (Gomez games highlighted in gold). With Gomez in the lineup the Canadiens have maintained a Fenwick % that is on line with the last four Stanley Cup champions (.541). Without him in the lineup it plummets to the level of league doormat (.433).


EVERY center, outside of David Desharnais, has had much worse Shots %, Fenwick ratings and Corsi ratings without Gomez compared to with him. Just look at these tables: http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...useless-player

Also, we can look at players like Gionta who had completely mediocre all-around stats without Gomez as well, but I think my point has been made. The "useless" claims and the "Maxim Lapierre would be 10x more useful" claims are pretty silly when you consider these statistics in my opinion.

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02-01-2012, 04:08 PM
  #330
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
I'm glad you brought solid evidence to back up your claim...

Bourque is much more inconsistent than Gomez.
Whew... good thing we picked up that guy.
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Gomez just had the worst year of his career last year, and everyone bases their opinions of him off that, like you are right now with your "90%" crap. He's been playing well since he got back from injury, just be happy he is finally looking good, unlike Plekanec.

I swear people just look for every opportunity they have to bash on the guy, it's pathetic.
The guy has to PRODUCE. He hasn't done this for us... at all.
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
But that's just the thing: after the worst season of his life, WHY are people's expectations of him to be a top 2 center? I mean, really? He sure is paid like one, but to expect him to put up the numbers of a top center are ridiculous in my opinion. He's played well this season. Want proof? He has the highest first-assist rate in the NHL in only 20+ games.
First it was... we can't expect him to be a number one. Now we can't expect him to be a number two? Please tell me how I can get a job making 7 million a year, fail, and then have people just lower their expectations every year while still paying me ridiculous money.

Oh yeah that's right I can do this... in the government.
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+5+17+18+19+20

With Scott Gomez in the lineup in the last two and a half years, the Habs have gone 90-88. Without Gomez over three years, they've gone 12-24.
With Gomez in the lineup, the Canadiens have had a team possession rate with the score tied of 53.5%. Without him, it was 44.6%

This season, in games with Gomez, the Habs at even strength have out-scored their opposition 39-31. Without, they've been out-scored 56-61. In the 19 games Montreal has played with Gomez, they've gone 8-11, which isn't great, but without, they've gone 11-19, which is way worse... as of the Detroit game. Just one game previous.
His return coincides with three blowouts we've had since Cunneyworth took over. Your sample sizes are so small that these numbers are insignficant man. Heck even from a team perspective we've been in the bottom third of goal scoring all year long. Then we had two huge blowouts and jumped all the way to something like 17th or 16th. Then we did our usual thing and dropped into the bottom third again until the Detroit blowout. All of a sudden we're 14th in goals for. Those are huge, huge swings just based on three games and if he suited up for any of those games then it's going to skew the team numbers. Oh and btw, he didn't score in any of those blowouts either. If he suits up for a 5-0 win and gets no points, I'm sorry but I'm not going to give him credit for this. Esp when the guy has only managed 22 assists and ZERO goals in his past 50 games.

Bottom line is that he has 22 assists and NO goals in his last 50 games. THAT is unacceptable. I don't care what his CORSI is. I don't care about puck possession and I don't care if he gives money to the poor. He's had all kinds of opportunity with icetime and PP and he's still sucked for us and he deserves the criticism.


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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
"Gomez sees favourable zone starts and his competition is below average, but the fact is that the guy also has a terrific possession rate, with a 54.3% score-tied Fenwick rate and he also leads the team in relative Corsi at 18.2 per 60 minutes (a number which is also 8th in the league)." Source: http://jetsnation.ca/2012/1/26/is-sc...underrated-yes

This visual is stunning in terms of Fenwick production (Gomez games highlighted in gold). With Gomez in the lineup the Canadiens have maintained a Fenwick % that is on line with the last four Stanley Cup champions (.541). Without him in the lineup it plummets to the level of league doormat (.433).


EVERY center, outside of David Desharnais, has had much worse Shots %, Fenwick ratings and Corsi ratings without Gomez compared to with him. Just look at these tables: http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...useless-player

Also, we can look at players like Gionta who had completely mediocre all-around stats without Gomez as well, but I think my point has been made. The "useless" claims and the "Maxim Lapierre would be 10x more useful" claims are pretty silly when you consider these statistics in my opinion.
All these microstats show is that they aren't very good at predicting what a good hockey player looks like. I keep hearing how great he is at puck possession. I keep hearing how his linemates can't score and yet they manage to do fine with other players. I keep hearing how he's going to snap out of it...

Give it up.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-01-2012 at 04:26 PM.
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Old
02-01-2012, 04:17 PM
  #331
Cyclones Rock
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[QUOTE=JohnLennon;43413045]
Quote:
But that's just the thing: after the worst season of his life, WHY are people's expectations of him to be a top 2 center? I mean, really? He sure is paid like one, but to expect him to put up the numbers of a top center are ridiculous in my opinion. He's played well this season. Want proof? He has the highest first-assist rate in the NHL in only 20+ games.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+5+17+18+19+20
I'm just going to concentrate on this year's numbers..

A twenty game sample based on 7 whole assists? Just stop it



Quote:
This season, in games with Gomez, the Habs at even strength have out-scored their opposition 39-31. Without, they've been out-scored 56-61. In the 19 games Montreal has played with Gomez, they've gone 8-11, which isn't great, but without, they've gone 11-19, which is way worse... as of the Detroit game. Just one game previous.

Gomez has been outscored by 3 goals at ES, so the 39-31 figure you give is irrelevant to his performance.

Quote:
Gomez sees favourable zone starts and his competition is below average, but the fact is that the guy also has a terrific possession rate, with a 54.3% score-tied Fenwick rate and he also leads the team in relative Corsi at 18.2 per 60 minutes (a number which is also 8th in the league)." Source: http://jetsnation.ca/2012/1/26/is-sc...underrated-yes

This visual is stunning in terms of Fenwick production (Gomez games highlighted in gold). With Gomez in the lineup the Canadiens have maintained a Fenwick % that is on line with the last four Stanley Cup champions (.541). Without him in the lineup it plummets to the level of league doormat (.433).
This might be de facto evidence that all shots are not created equal. The notion that anyone could seriously present anything Gomez as being "on line with the last four Stanley Cup Champions" is comedic.


**One of these days I'll get this multi quote right.....I promise that I will as soon as Mr. Stanley Cup Fenwick %Gomez scores

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Old
02-01-2012, 04:28 PM
  #332
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Part of the problem with losing Gomez is forcing Plekanec to take more tough minutes Eller and DD aren't able to handle. Plek's workload has been ludicrous this season, and his "slump" has been due in no small part to this.

Gomez, when he's in the lineup and used at center, is actually capable of taking fairly tough minutes effectively, allowing Plekanec's assignments to slant more to the offense and allowing both DD and Eller to be sheltered. In a very real sense he helps both Eller and Plekanec produce more even when he's not on the ice because they both get more favorable matchups. (DD has been sheltered all year, Gomez or no Gomez). And on nights where Plekanec had an off game couldn't handle the toughest matchups for whatever reason, Gomez was a reasonable alternative.

Of course, that was all under Martin, who made it a point to give his lines roles and adjust from there to put players in positions to succeed. Randy's personnel utilization is... hard to follow. It's hard to tell from game to game who's supposed to be the tough minutes guy, but in general it looks like it's Eller at home (except when he gets benched for being thrown into the deep end and sinking) and Plekanec on the road. I think. Randy's plan is hard to follow, assuming he has one. But since the season is shot, there's no reason not to develop DD and Eller by using them at center and using Gomez on the wing. It's not like winning has been an organizational goal since about 4 games after Martin was fired. Although benching Eller for "being fed more than he can chew" is idiotic regardless of what your goal is.

(cue several posts outraged over the notion that Gomez has any value whatsoever).

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02-01-2012, 04:33 PM
  #333
Cyclones Rock
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post


"Gomez sees favourable zone starts and his competition is below average, but the fact is that the guy also has a terrific possession rate, with a 54.3% score-tied Fenwick rate and he also leads the team in relative Corsi at 18.2 per 60 minutes (a number which is also 8th in the league)." Source: http://jetsnation.ca/2012/1/26/is-sc...underrated-yes

This visual is stunning in terms of Fenwick production (Gomez games highlighted in gold). With Gomez in the lineup the Canadiens have maintained a Fenwick % that is on line with the last four Stanley Cup champions (.541). Without him in the lineup it plummets to the level of league doormat (.433).

If I were an enthusiast of CORSI and Fenwick, I would be placing a great deal of effort into determining why Gomez performs so well under these evaluations and so poorly under most others. I would also try to look at other players who have similar CORSI/Fenwicks to Gomez and determine the differences between those players and Gomez. The notion of shooting percentages (individual/team) ultimately regressing to means doesn't cut it. There either is something different about Gomez or this type of statistical analysis isn't of much use.

Using Gomez as the poster boy for a statistic in which one believes highly is not a good sales technique Especially on a Montreal Canadiens board.

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02-01-2012, 04:36 PM
  #334
Lafleurs Guy
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Part of the problem with losing Gomez is forcing Plekanec to take more tough minutes Eller and DD aren't able to handle. Plek's workload has been ludicrous this season, and his "slump" has been due in no small part to this.

Gomez, when he's in the lineup and used at center, is actually capable of taking fairly tough minutes effectively, allowing Plekanec's assignments to slant more to the offense and allowing both DD and Eller to be sheltered. In a very real sense he helps both Eller and Plekanec produce more even when he's not on the ice because they both get more favorable matchups. (DD has been sheltered all year, Gomez or no Gomez). And on nights where Plekanec had an off game couldn't handle the toughest matchups for whatever reason, Gomez was a reasonable alternative.

Of course, that was all under Martin, who made it a point to give his lines roles and adjust from there to put players in positions to succeed. Randy's personnel utilization is... hard to follow. It's hard to tell from game to game who's supposed to be the tough minutes guy, but in general it looks like it's Eller at home (except when he gets benched for being thrown into the deep end and sinking) and Plekanec on the road. I think. Randy's plan is hard to follow, assuming he has one. But since the season is shot, there's no reason not to develop DD and Eller by using them at center and using Gomez on the wing. It's not like winning has been an organizational goal since about 4 games after Martin was fired. Although benching Eller for "being fed more than he can chew" is idiotic regardless of what your goal is.

(cue several posts outraged over the notion that Gomez has any value whatsoever).
Yeah, good 'ol Martin. What an awesome coach he was. He guided us to an 88 point season and we were doing great with him this year too. I think we should go back to playing the hell out of Gomez and Darche. That's the way we're going to win.

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02-01-2012, 04:56 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
If I were an enthusiast of CORSI and Fenwick, I would be placing a great deal of effort into determining why Gomez performs so well under these evaluations and so poorly under most others.
We've been over this already. Gomez is generally a strong 5-on-5 producer and a plus player based on his outshooting, but he had one year of bad shooting luck. It happens.

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The notion of shooting percentages (individual/team) ultimately regressing to means doesn't cut it.
You know what the funniest thing is?

The team's on-ice shooting percentage regressed to the mean this year. Overall, and when Gomez is on the ice. They're both at their 2009-2010 level or better. That's why Montreal looks good in 5-on-5 scoring even though their possession game has suffered a fair bit relative to last year, especially with Gomez out of the lineup.

Of course, that would have to be the year the PP completely dries up...

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02-01-2012, 05:00 PM
  #336
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We've been over this already. Gomez is generally a strong 5-on-5 producer and a plus player based on his outshooting, but he had one year of bad shooting luck. It happens.



You know what the funniest thing is?

The team's on-ice shooting percentage regressed to the mean this year. Overall, and when Gomez is on the ice. They're both at their 2009-2010 level or better. That's why Montreal looks good in 5-on-5 scoring even though their possession game has suffered a fair bit relative to last year, especially with Gomez out of the lineup.

Of course, that would have to be the year the PP completely dries up...
0 goals and 22 assists in 50 games doesn't just happen. It's not luck... sorry but it's just not.

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02-01-2012, 05:08 PM
  #337
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We've been over this already. Gomez is generally a strong 5-on-5 producer and a plus player based on his outshooting, but he had one year of bad shooting luck. It happens.



You know what the funniest thing is?

The team's on-ice shooting percentage regressed to the mean this year. Overall, and when Gomez is on the ice. They're both at their 2009-2010 level or better. That's why Montreal looks good in 5-on-5 scoring even though their possession game has suffered a fair bit relative to last year, especially with Gomez out of the lineup.

Of course, that would have to be the year the PP completely dries up...
Show me one player similar to Gomez in terms of CORSI. By that I would mean a forward who gets first line/PP ice time, doesn't score goals and averages about .4 assists per game and who has similar CORSI stats. Also, if you don't think that 56 games with no goals is more than bad luck......you're allowed that viewpoint, but I'm certain it goes beyond that. Players lose it. Gomez has.....he's finished.


The underlying assumption of all shots/shot attempts being equal is a huge deficiency with CORSI

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02-01-2012, 05:32 PM
  #338
JohnLennon
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Whew... good thing we picked up that guy.

The guy has to PRODUCE. He hasn't done this for us... at all.

First it was... we can't expect him to be a number one. Now we can't expect him to be a number two? Please tell me how I can get a job making 7 million a year, fail, and then have people just lower their expectations every year while still paying me ridiculous money.

Oh yeah that's right I can do this... in the government.

His return coincides with three blowouts we've had since Cunneyworth took over. Your sample sizes are so small that these numbers are insignficant man. Heck even from a team perspective we've been in the bottom third of goal scoring all year long. Then we had two huge blowouts and jumped all the way to something like 17th or 16th. Then we did our usual thing and dropped into the bottom third again until the Detroit blowout. All of a sudden we're 14th in goals for. Those are huge, huge swings just based on three games and if he suited up for any of those games then it's going to skew the team numbers. Oh and btw, he didn't score in any of those blowouts either. If he suits up for a 5-0 win and gets no points, I'm sorry but I'm not going to give him credit for this. Esp when the guy has only managed 22 assists and ZERO goals in his past 50 games.

Bottom line is that he has 22 assists and NO goals in his last 50 games. THAT is unacceptable. I don't care what his CORSI is. I don't care about puck possession and I don't care if he gives money to the poor. He's had all kinds of opportunity with icetime and PP and he's still sucked for us and he deserves the criticism.



All these microstats show is that they aren't very good at predicting what a good hockey player looks like. I keep hearing how great he is at puck possession. I keep hearing how his linemates can't score and yet they manage to do fine with other players. I keep hearing how he's going to snap out of it...

Give it up.
How many times do you have to bring up his contract? No one disagrees with you on the fact he is overpaid, so stop using it as evidence to back up your claim. Unless your claim is that everyone's contract should equal their output, leave the contract out of it. This is his first season since the worst season of his career, AND he just got back from injury, and you're trying to make an argument that we should expect first line production out of him? Top center or not, that is simply ridiculous.

Also, how about you read what I wrote? These numbers aren't "since his return" as you said... they are THIS season, which is 20 games. In fact, many of the stats I provided are from his CAREER WITH THE HABS. Not a small sample size by any means, so your claim that a couple of blowouts either way are going to affect the numbers in any way is wrong, yet again.

All these microstats show are facts that you can't agree with because they don't go along with your opinion. I'm sorry man, but those are pretty good statistics in showing that we are CLEARLY a better team WITH him than without him, whether you like it or not. Also, the Fenwick and Corsi ratings are pretty good indicators of play, especially when compared to meaningless +/- ratings.

You are one of the most pessimistic posters I see on these boards, and you didn't make one solid rebuttal in that entire message. Just face the fact that he as awful as everyone makes him out to be, that's all that my claim really is. Also, if you choose to reply, please make it in one solid, comprehensive message made out of paragraphs, because it is hard to read your sentence-by-sentence analyses on my monitor.

"Give it up"

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02-01-2012, 05:41 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
If I were an enthusiast of CORSI and Fenwick, I would be placing a great deal of effort into determining why Gomez performs so well under these evaluations and so poorly under most others. I would also try to look at other players who have similar CORSI/Fenwicks to Gomez and determine the differences between those players and Gomez. The notion of shooting percentages (individual/team) ultimately regressing to means doesn't cut it. There either is something different about Gomez or this type of statistical analysis isn't of much use.

Using Gomez as the poster boy for a statistic in which one believes highly is not a good sales technique Especially on a Montreal Canadiens board.
Corsi shows a closer correlation to winning in relevant-sized samples, but Fenwick ratios mimic scoring chance ratios extremely well and is on better theoretical grounds, removing shot-blocking skill from the equation. You can do what you want with the numbers, I just showed how they help illustrate how Gomez is much better than most fans believe.

Also, why are you criticizing Corsi and Fenwick when you previously used his plus/minus rating to prove a point? Plus/minus is infinitely worse in almost every way in comparison to either of those statistical measurements, and many have disregarded that measurement as it is pretty meaningless in most cases.

All that post was showing you was that Gomez is not as bad as people think, and not one person has made a solid argument against it, all that has been said is "THE FACTS ARE WRONG" or "THESE RATING SYSTEMS ARE SO FLAWED!" Please, they are probably better than any other rating system in my opinion. I was just shedding some light on Gomez for those who incessantly whine about him.

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02-01-2012, 05:56 PM
  #340
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How many times do you have to bring up his contract? No one disagrees with you on the fact he is overpaid, so stop using it as evidence to back up your claim. Unless your claim is that everyone's contract should equal their output, leave the contract out of it. This is his first season since the worst season of his career, AND he just got back from injury, and you're trying to make an argument that we should expect first line production out of him? Top center or not, that is simply ridiculous.
The contract is actually the least of it. It's the funniest aspect of this disaster but it's probably the least of the problems that we're talking about here. The fact that he sucks up the ice time that he does and takes away icetime from guys like Eller without producing any goals and very little in the way of points is the real crime here.

And the fact that guys like you defend him is just... beyond comprehension.
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Also, how about you read what I wrote? These numbers aren't "since his return" as you said... they are THIS season, which is 20 games. In fact, many of the stats I provided are from his CAREER WITH THE HABS. Not a small sample size by any means, so your claim that a couple of blowouts either way are going to affect the numbers in any way is wrong, yet again.
His first season was halfway productive dude. The fact that he tanked last year (and we succeeded in spite of this) and then got hurt through much of this year when he's been even worse, skews the numbers.

As I was saying... he missed a large part of the disastrous season that we've had this year. And when he's been in the lineup, he hasn't been good. You are crediting him with the play from other players. I don't care if he was in the lineup that had Wiznewski on it last year and racked up PP for us. Gomez had nothing to do with this.

He's sucked last year and he's sucked this year. Saying that the team played well when he's been in the lineup ignores the fact that he was in the lineup with Wiznewski and missed games when Wiz wasn't here.

Bottom line is... he has NOT produced. When we've won we've done so in spite of his play, not because of it.
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
All these microstats show are facts that you can't agree with because they don't go along with your opinion. I'm sorry man, but those are pretty good statistics in showing that we are CLEARLY a better team WITH him than without him, whether you like it or not. Also, the Fenwick and Corsi ratings are pretty good indicators of play, especially when compared to meaningless +/- ratings.

You are one of the most pessimistic posters I see on these boards, and you didn't make one solid rebuttal in that entire message. Just face the fact that he as awful as everyone makes him out to be, that's all that my claim really is. Also, if you choose to reply, please make it in one solid, comprehensive message made out of paragraphs, because it is hard to read your sentence-by-sentence analyses on my monitor.

"Give it up"
The microstats don't go along with my opinion? Look, it's not my opinion that the guy hasn't scored in 50 freakin' games man. It's not my opinion that he's barely scoring 40 points a season right now with ZERO goals... those are facts. I couldn't care less about your microstats.

And as for it being luck, the guy must've broken 7000 mirrors in 2010 because nobody is that unlucky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Show me one player similar to Gomez in terms of CORSI. By that I would mean a forward who gets first line/PP ice time, doesn't score goals and averages about .4 assists per game and who has similar CORSI stats. Also, if you don't think that 56 games with no goals is more than bad luck......you're allowed that viewpoint, but I'm certain it goes beyond that. Players lose it. Gomez has.....he's finished.


The underlying assumption of all shots/shot attempts being equal is a huge deficiency with CORSI
Hockey is a fluid game and you're absolutely right, these microstats assume that a shot from Gomez is the same as one coming from Ovechkin. A hit from Chara is measured the same as one from Gionta but as many players can tell you, it sure doesn't FEEL the same on the ice. And I'm pretty sure a hit from Chara (or the threat of one) serves as a far greater deterent than one from Gionta as well.

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02-01-2012, 06:01 PM
  #341
icerocket
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Gomez is approaching a year without a goal.

But he isn't bad according to some posters.

Come on

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02-01-2012, 06:12 PM
  #342
Jamie Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
Gomez is approaching a year without a goal.

But he isn't bad according to some posters.

Come on
He is not bad, he is just unlucky.

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02-01-2012, 06:12 PM
  #343
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It's too bad PG couldn't of signed Rupp. He would of been our perfect 4 line center and probably would have us in a playoff spot with him in the lineup.

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02-01-2012, 07:10 PM
  #344
JohnLennon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The contract is actually the least of it. It's the funniest aspect of this disaster but it's probably the least of the problems that we're talking about here. The fact that he sucks up the ice time that he does and takes away icetime from guys like Eller without producing any goals and very little in the way of points is the real crime here.

And the fact that guys like you defend him is just... beyond comprehension.

His first season was halfway productive dude. The fact that he tanked last year (and we succeeded in spite of this) and then got hurt through much of this year when he's been even worse, skews the numbers.

As I was saying... he missed a large part of the disastrous season that we've had this year. And when he's been in the lineup, he hasn't been good. You are crediting him with the play from other players. I don't care if he was in the lineup that had Wiznewski on it last year and racked up PP for us. Gomez had nothing to do with this.

He's sucked last year and he's sucked this year. Saying that the team played well when he's been in the lineup ignores the fact that he was in the lineup with Wiznewski and missed games when Wiz wasn't here.

Bottom line is... he has NOT produced. When we've won we've done so in spite of his play, not because of it.

The microstats don't go along with my opinion? Look, it's not my opinion that the guy hasn't scored in 50 freakin' games man. It's not my opinion that he's barely scoring 40 points a season right now with ZERO goals... those are facts. I couldn't care less about your microstats.
You're regurgitating nonsense that you read from others: Taking up Eller's ice time? Seriously? Eller has been crap lately. The only argument you have is that Gomez hasn't scored a goal in 50 games, and that is including his worst season of his life, and before and after his 30-GAME INJURY.

You brought no facts into the discussion, as I did, supporting your claim. You just make misinformed claims like "we win games in spite of him, not because of him" when the facts are CLEARLY against you on that. Corsi and Fenwick are much better indicators of his play than your "oh my god he hasn't scored in so long!" crap. A player can still play well while not scoring, and my whole argument is based on the fact that he hasn't been as bad as people claim.

I easily showed you 6 or 7 different statistics favoring Gomez, and you can only come up with your pathetic "he hasn't scored" and "that rating system is so flawed!" arguments. There is nothing going for you other than that: the stats show that when he is playing for the Habs, they are better than when he isn't. Maybe you should look up what the rating systems tell you, before ranting with your same used-up argument over and over again. You haven't proved anything except he hasn't scored. But you can't disprove that he has played well this season, because you have no evidence backing your claim, which I did.

It's like arguing with a child: no matter how much proof you show, they will repeat the same thing over and over until you just give up.

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02-01-2012, 07:13 PM
  #345
WhiskeySeven
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^ Eller's been crap but Gomez hasn't? Give it up, man.

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02-01-2012, 07:20 PM
  #346
dutchy29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
But that's just the thing: after the worst season of his life, WHY are people's expectations of him to be a top 2 center? I mean, really? He sure is paid like one, but to expect him to put up the numbers of a top center are ridiculous in my opinion. He's played well this season. Want proof? He has the highest first-assist rate in the NHL in only 20+ games.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+5+17+18+19+20

With Scott Gomez in the lineup in the last two and a half years, the Habs have gone 90-88. Without Gomez over three years, they've gone 12-24.
With Gomez in the lineup, the Canadiens have had a team possession rate with the score tied of 53.5%. Without him, it was 44.6%

This season, in games with Gomez, the Habs at even strength have out-scored their opposition 39-31. Without, they've been out-scored 56-61. In the 19 games Montreal has played with Gomez, they've gone 8-11, which isn't great, but without, they've gone 11-19, which is way worse... as of the Detroit game. Just one game previous.

"Gomez sees favourable zone starts and his competition is below average, but the fact is that the guy also has a terrific possession rate, with a 54.3% score-tied Fenwick rate and he also leads the team in relative Corsi at 18.2 per 60 minutes (a number which is also 8th in the league)." Source: http://jetsnation.ca/2012/1/26/is-sc...underrated-yes

This visual is stunning in terms of Fenwick production (Gomez games highlighted in gold). With Gomez in the lineup the Canadiens have maintained a Fenwick % that is on line with the last four Stanley Cup champions (.541). Without him in the lineup it plummets to the level of league doormat (.433).


EVERY center, outside of David Desharnais, has had much worse Shots %, Fenwick ratings and Corsi ratings without Gomez compared to with him. Just look at these tables: http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...useless-player

Also, we can look at players like Gionta who had completely mediocre all-around stats without Gomez as well, but I think my point has been made. The "useless" claims and the "Maxim Lapierre would be 10x more useful" claims are pretty silly when you consider these statistics in my opinion.
You can break down an encyclopedia full of stats to try and stick up for this complete embarrasment to the team and hockey, but the only stat that matters is that he makes 7.3million and hasn't score a goal in a year. check mate.

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02-01-2012, 07:20 PM
  #347
JohnLennon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
^ Eller's been crap but Gomez hasn't? Give it up, man.
This is classic coming from you. Eller has been invisible lately, and not played well at all. If you want to argue that Eller has been better than Gomez, that's your opinion. They are on pace for a similar amount of points this season(.35 PPG), and Gomez has been playing well lately while Eller has not.

Go ahead, just tell me how Eller has been playing well lately. Yea... give it up man.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchy29 View Post
You can break down an encyclopedia full of stats to try and stick up for this complete embarrasment to the team and hockey, but the only stat that matters is that he makes 7.3million and hasn't score a goal in a year. check mate.
This quote works PERFECTLY with what I just wrote to Lafleur's Guy. You should read it. I agree that Gomez is overpaid, but if that's your only argument then that is pathetic. You disregard every stat I showed you favoring his play, and then whine about scoring from a passer. I think what I said about "arguing with a child" pertains to this message written by you as well, congratulations. EXCELLENT post, you really proved your point.

"Embarassment to hockey" and "check mate" really convince me that you're no older than 11 years old. "Check mate."

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02-01-2012, 07:26 PM
  #348
WeThreeKings
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You're embarassing yourself, Lennon.

Just stop.

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02-01-2012, 07:26 PM
  #349
dutchy29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
This is classic coming from you. Eller has been invisible lately, and not played well at all. If you want to argue that Eller has been better than Gomez, that's your opinion. They are on pace for a similar amount of points this season(.35 PPG), and Gomez has been playing well lately while Eller has not.

Go ahead, just tell me how Eller has been playing well lately. Yea... give it up man.



This quote works PERFECTLY with what I just wrote to Lafleur's Guy. You should read it. I agree that Gomez is overpaid, but if that's your only argument then that is pathetic. You disregard every stat I showed you favoring his play, and then whine about scoring from a passer. I think what I said about "arguing with a child" pertains to this message written by you as well, congratulations. EXCELLENT post, you really proved your point.

"Embarassment to hockey" and "check mate" really convince me that you're no older than 11 years old. "Check mate."
Thats it...John Lennon is Scott Gomez. its the only explanation.

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02-01-2012, 07:29 PM
  #350
JohnLennon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
You're embarassing yourself, Lennon.

Just stop.
How's that? Because you've given up before because you had no argument, it doesn't mean I'm embarrassing myself. I think that post showing all his statistics really favored my stance, and no one has yet to discount any of it.

Of course, I know you take it personal when I argue that Gomez isn't as bad as people claim. It's not even an extreme argument, I never said he was amazing

Everyone knows he is overpaid, but he still benefits this team whether you like it or not. End of story. (Ps. I can see you have no argument as usual, congrats!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchy29 View Post
Thats it...John Lennon is Scott Gomez. its the only explanation.
Actually, I'm really John Lennon. To give people a background, my favorite player on the Habs is Subban. But I argue in favor of Gomez because the misguided whining on this site really gets pathetic after awhile, and I like to show people he isn't as bad as they think. He's not amazing, but he's pretty decent (just overpaid). But when push comes to shove, they go back into their cave with their contract argument, and never come out again. Pretty much what you did, and Lafleur's Guy as well!

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