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Old
02-01-2012, 04:38 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
That's all very true, but can we (or any team in this situation) afford to wait 2 more years for Weber to fully develop? What happens if he doesn't develop in 2 years - if at 25 he's virtually the same player he was at 23? At a certain point you have to take what you've seen on the ice and decide if it's something worth committing that time, money, roster space, etc to.

I'd compare his situation to Ryan O'Byrne - he had a chance in Montreal, did OK, but the Habs couldn't wait forever. He was traded to another team where he's having similar ups and downs, and he'll likely be traded again and again in his career...not because he's bad, but mostly because he'll never be great. Montreal got an asset for him, closed the book, and moved on. Same might come to be with Weber.

And just for the record, Weber can't be sent down anymore without going through waivers.
Why is there a deadline to do anything with Weber?

We are in a selling mode so why trade one of our younger players. Having him as a #7 guy next year is not a bad thing, beats signing crap like Picard.

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02-01-2012, 04:38 PM
  #77
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well for one he can't even keep the puck in the zone....every time the puck leaves the offensive zone on the pp its his fault unless its a dump from opposition.
guess you havent watch games lately cause really, there isnt a single Habs player who is capable of keeping the puck in the O zone it seems...

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02-01-2012, 04:43 PM
  #78
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absolutely no reason to move Weber right now unless some team comes in with a crazy overpayment, or he becomes the tipping point piece in a much larger deal (but again, we'd have to be getting significant return on the dollar in said deal).


otherwise, you keep him, you pencil him as- at worst- the 7th dman next year.

at his age, another offseason of strengthening and conditioning, plus the experience of another NHL season under his belt, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't come into camp a better player.

let him battle for a top-6 spot, and at worst he's a very solid 7th dman, better than the Wowytka or Campoli we were heading into this year with.


My bet is that, assuming we don't move him, he earns a roster spot next season clearly, and finishes the year playing ~18min/game while putting up 30-40pts.

Subban
Diaz
Weber

as our RD, assuming we can replace Gill with a more effective defensive dman, would give us a very good defensive group (with Gorges and Markov rounding it out... or with Kaberle replacing Markov if he's in fact done).

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02-01-2012, 05:19 PM
  #79
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absolutely no reason to move Weber right now unless some team comes in with a crazy overpayment, or he becomes the tipping point piece in a much larger deal (but again, we'd have to be getting significant return on the dollar in said deal).


otherwise, you keep him, you pencil him as- at worst- the 7th dman next year.

at his age, another offseason of strengthening and conditioning, plus the experience of another NHL season under his belt, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't come into camp a better player.

let him battle for a top-6 spot, and at worst he's a very solid 7th dman, better than the Wowytka or Campoli we were heading into this year with.


My bet is that, assuming we don't move him, he earns a roster spot next season clearly, and finishes the year playing ~18min/game while putting up 30-40pts.

Subban
Diaz
Weber

as our RD, assuming we can replace Gill with a more effective defensive dman, would give us a very good defensive group (with Gorges and Markov rounding it out... or with Kaberle replacing Markov if he's in fact done).
Subban has been extremely shaky this year on D. Weber/Diaz are both weak on D, while Diaz has been ok at times, he's still not strong enough to clear the front of the net. Weber gets lazy, started off ok on the PP but has been benched off and on this season and I don't see him having more upside than a 6th/7th dman. Markov hasn't even played this year, and Emelin has been inconsistent also.

Kaberle is still pretty bad on D, he's a good passer though, that's about it. But we're still one of the worst PPs in the league. Campoli will be gone, and obviously Gill. So we will need a solid all around #3 D man, who has offensive upside and can take care of things in our zone. Markov is still under contract and let's just hope he can come back being average.

But with all that, we'll have a very solid D next year? Quite the opposite. The only certainty is probably Gorges will be good again.

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02-01-2012, 06:10 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by xposbrad View Post
Subban has been extremely shaky this year on D. Weber/Diaz are both weak on D, while Diaz has been ok at times, he's still not strong enough to clear the front of the net. Weber gets lazy, started off ok on the PP but has been benched off and on this season and I don't see him having more upside than a 6th/7th dman. Markov hasn't even played this year, and Emelin has been inconsistent also.

Kaberle is still pretty bad on D, he's a good passer though, that's about it. But we're still one of the worst PPs in the league. Campoli will be gone, and obviously Gill. So we will need a solid all around #3 D man, who has offensive upside and can take care of things in our zone. Markov is still under contract and let's just hope he can come back being average.

But with all that, we'll have a very solid D next year? Quite the opposite. The only certainty is probably Gorges will be good again.
think people focus too much on potential upside when it it comes to comparing too young players

All of Diaz, Subban and Weber are too young to be compared that way given the season they're having personnaly and the season the Habs are having as a team... all 3 should be given enough time on D to develop a little more...

I mean, has Subban plateaued or is he stuck cause the Habs have to play him as a #1, wich he isnt ready for ? is Weber the player we saw in the first few games this year where we was one of our 3 best D or is he the player we see now, barely good enough for #6 spot ? does Diaz have room for improvement or has he already peaked (he's older) ?

Wanna know how it's going to turn out, gotta give them opportunities, and by opportunities I dont mean playing just once in a while for 5 minutes a game...

and right now is the perfect time to give the kids those opportunities....

have Subban play 2nd pair for a few games and look at how different his game is (will he generate more offense ? better D coverage ? not at all ?), give Diaz a Emelin or a Gorges as partner instead of pylon Gill, and give Weber ice time ON D...

I mean, for all we know, the one who'll improve at a way higher pace may not be the one we think is the better D now...

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02-01-2012, 10:37 PM
  #81
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My bet is that, assuming we don't move him, he earns a roster spot next season clearly, and finishes the year playing ~18min/game while putting up 30-40pts.
that's some high expectations of weber.

i think the sooner management realizes that this season is a wash, trades vets and gives young guys like weber/palushaj (since the latter is waiver illegible next season) some serious playtime, the better off they'll be.

bottom line is, im also not convinced that weber has reached his potential yet.

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02-02-2012, 07:37 AM
  #82
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then he has two more years by your logic, unless you call years he played 3 and 5 games "seasons"...

say what you want, but at the end of the day Weber is still younger AND less experienced (NHL) than Subban, and is still younger by 2+ years than Diaz and Emelin... 1000 days ? big deal, more than half of it was in the AHL... and good chunk of his NHL days were spent at forward...

by the way Diaz is already 26 years old, aside from getting used to the NHL, he wont improve much... what you see from him now is what you will see next year, and the year after as well... seriously, how many years of developpement are you going to waste on a 26 years old rookie... come on now...
They were 3 and 5 game seasons because he did not earn more than that. That is the entire point. Earn the spot. Steal it from someone.

Subban came after Weber and cemented a spot. Imagine, with the holes in Subban's game and his antics on the ice, he still was clearly ahead of Weber. Heads, shoulders and waist above Weber.

There is a reason Weber got games as a forward, he was not good enough to displace someone on the D. They kept him because when the planets align and he does shoot, he has a great shot. That is the only reason. They are trying to re-incarnate Souray, Streit, MAB or Wiz, hoping for the same results.

if not 4 years than certainly 2 years of really trying him out... he still cannot crack a weak defensive corps.

And believe me, I am not a Diaz fanatic either. He has had some games, but he is here to plug a hole, to see if you can catch lightning in a bottle. He will not become the next Brian Rafalski. As for Emelin, he brings something not one of the other Habs D brings, body checking.

Weber...he is not showing me anything that I cannot live without now. After 4 years, I do not think the future is great either.

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02-02-2012, 07:46 AM
  #83
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I think it all comes down to confidence with Weber. At the start of the year for about a 10 game stretch he was playing around 20 mins per night on defence and a few of those games he was our top minute getter. He was making smart quick decisions with the puck and was OK in his own end. Then he seems to get rattled and the coaching staff loses confidence in him.

I'd like to see him get another chance. And if we are sellers at the deadline it is time to put him on D and just let him play for a bit.

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02-02-2012, 07:55 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by crakced View Post
I think it all comes down to confidence with Weber. At the start of the year for about a 10 game stretch he was playing around 20 mins per night on defence and a few of those games he was our top minute getter. He was making smart quick decisions with the puck and was OK in his own end. Then he seems to get rattled and the coaching staff loses confidence in him.

I'd like to see him get another chance. And if we are sellers at the deadline it is time to put him on D and just let him play for a bit.
I have no issues scratching him at times...but he went from getting #1 or 2 minutes to sitting for 10 straight games. That doesn't help a young player's development.

Hopefully he plays more and we trade Campoli Gill and Kaberle.

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02-02-2012, 08:36 AM
  #85
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They were 3 and 5 game seasons because he did not earn more than that. That is the entire point. Earn the spot. Steal it from someone.

Subban came after Weber and cemented a spot. Imagine, with the holes in Subban's game and his antics on the ice, he still was clearly ahead of Weber. Heads, shoulders and waist above Weber.

There is a reason Weber got games as a forward, he was not good enough to displace someone on the D. They kept him because when the planets align and he does shoot, he has a great shot. That is the only reason. They are trying to re-incarnate Souray, Streit, MAB or Wiz, hoping for the same results.

if not 4 years than certainly 2 years of really trying him out... he still cannot crack a weak defensive corps.

And believe me, I am not a Diaz fanatic either. He has had some games, but he is here to plug a hole, to see if you can catch lightning in a bottle. He will not become the next Brian Rafalski. As for Emelin, he brings something not one of the other Habs D brings, body checking.

Weber...he is not showing me anything that I cannot live without now. After 4 years, I do not think the future is great either.
the years he played 3 and 5 games he was 20 and 21 years old...


seriously...

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02-02-2012, 09:14 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the years he played 3 and 5 games he was 20 and 21 years old...


seriously...
yes. He was on the radar enough that the Habs called him up. He has stayed on the radar, but has not removed any doubt.

We will disagree on this player.

You see him as a young player with potential.

I see him as a wrong fit for the Habs, even if he develops into a passable NHL'r.

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02-02-2012, 10:40 AM
  #87
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yes. He was on the radar enough that the Habs called him up. He has stayed on the radar, but has not removed any doubt.

We will disagree on this player.
You see him as a young player with potential.

I see him as a wrong fit for the Habs, even if he develops into a passable NHL'r.
well, wether he'll develop into a decent D we dont know... what we do know though is that he will NOT develop into a decent D by playing half the game as a 4th liner and watching the other games from the stands...

and wether he becomes a regular on the Habs is irrelevant... cause one way or another, he's definitely not developing well enough right now to be used on the Habs OR he doesnt have value in a trade either...


assets management 101.

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02-02-2012, 11:12 AM
  #88
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He won't be here long-term. He will be a viable PP specialist for a team so he will have some value.

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02-02-2012, 11:13 AM
  #89
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well, wether he'll develop into a decent D we dont know... what we do know though is that he will NOT develop into a decent D by playing half the game as a 4th liner and watching the other games from the stands...

and wether he becomes a regular on the Habs is irrelevant... cause one way or another, he's definitely not developing well enough right now to be used on the Habs OR he doesnt have value in a trade either...


assets management 101.
Asset management... it is not a chicken/egg argument.

He had plenty of chances and players beneath him, beside him, around him.... they had the opportunities too, and they passed him by.

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02-02-2012, 11:17 AM
  #90
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yes. He was on the radar enough that the Habs called him up. He has stayed on the radar, but has not removed any doubt.

We will disagree on this player.

You see him as a young player with potential.

I see him as a wrong fit for the Habs, even if he develops into a passable NHL'r.
Wether he is a good fit for us or not, he needs to play the last 2-3 months to develop and gain in value so we can trade him for a good return or he proves he can play a certain role for us.

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02-02-2012, 11:19 AM
  #91
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He won't be here long-term. He will be a viable PP specialist for a team so he will have some value.
well, right now according to the Habs his value is below one of Diaz, Gill and even Campoli...

so, he's worth what, a 4th rounder ? maybe an average 21-22 years old prospect ?

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02-02-2012, 12:39 PM
  #92
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Wether he is a good fit for us or not, he needs to play the last 2-3 months to develop and gain in value so we can trade him for a good return or he proves he can play a certain role for us.

He has been on the roster for 4 years. When do you take the training wheels off?

Put it to you this way, if TSN/RDS gave you a job tomorrow covering the NHL, would you dive it, make friends with reporters and ex-players from around the league. Get the pulse of every city, every player, every coach etc... Become indispensable, become a bible of amateur, pro and international hockey....

Or would you hang out with Bergy or Michael Landsberg and enjoy golf in the summer and eat prezels in the press box and just wait for Alain Crete to retire so you can get his job, all the while complaining you never got your shot at the anchor.

What happened to working hard? Why should everyone expect a fair break?

Seize the moment.

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02-02-2012, 01:25 PM
  #93
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He has been on the roster for 4 years. When do you take the training wheels off?

Put it to you this way, if TSN/RDS gave you a job tomorrow covering the NHL, would you dive it, make friends with reporters and ex-players from around the league. Get the pulse of every city, every player, every coach etc... Become indispensable, become a bible of amateur, pro and international hockey....

Or would you hang out with Bergy or Michael Landsberg and enjoy golf in the summer and eat prezels in the press box and just wait for Alain Crete to retire so you can get his job, all the while complaining you never got your shot at the anchor.

What happened to working hard? Why should everyone expect a fair break?

Seize the moment.
Going by that logic...

Subban has more NHL games under his belt and isnt showing much this year, so bye bye Subban... same for Eller, he hasnt shown to be much better offensively this year so, bye bye Eller... at the same age, DD couldnt crack a NHL line-up, so bye bye DD... and Palushaj coulnt get a point in the NHL in two years (TWO YEARS - worse than Gomez!), so bye bye Palushaj as well... Gorges was no better at the same age, guess PG was retarded for extending him... and what to say about White, 3 years already, pfffff...

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02-02-2012, 01:33 PM
  #94
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He has been on the roster for 4 years. When do you take the training wheels off?

Put it to you this way, if TSN/RDS gave you a job tomorrow covering the NHL, would you dive it, make friends with reporters and ex-players from around the league. Get the pulse of every city, every player, every coach etc... Become indispensable, become a bible of amateur, pro and international hockey....

Or would you hang out with Bergy or Michael Landsberg and enjoy golf in the summer and eat prezels in the press box and just wait for Alain Crete to retire so you can get his job, all the while complaining you never got your shot at the anchor.

What happened to working hard? Why should everyone expect a fair break?

Seize the moment.
Not sure what roster you are talking about.

Until midseason last year he was pretty much in the AHL full time. The last calendar year he has played NHL...81 GP 5-19-24 30 PIMs -2. Those are not bad rookie numbers.

The guy is 23, I'm sure half the guys in the NHL were not full time regulars at 23. He has shown flashes of top 4 potential this year. He's had ups and downs like all rookies. Even super talented d-men like Subban, Myers and Schenn have had growing pains their first few years. All were scratched their 2nd or 3rd years.

If you can trade him and get great value back, great, but to just dump him because he doesn't meet your ridiculous standards makes no sense at all.

You should look into being a television evangelist instead of posting on hockey boards.

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02-02-2012, 01:56 PM
  #95
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Going by that logic...

Subban has more NHL games under his belt and isnt showing much this year, so bye bye Subban... same for Eller, he hasnt shown to be much better offensively this year so, bye bye Eller... at the same age, DD couldnt crack a NHL line-up, so bye bye DD... and Palushaj coulnt get a point in the NHL in two years (TWO YEARS - worse than Gomez!), so bye bye Palushaj as well... Gorges was no better at the same age, guess PG was retarded for extending him... and what to say about White, 3 years already, pfffff...
I don't see why you see the need to start pulling every other player's development in on the discussion. Each players profile and development is different. That is why just because he is young, a D and Swiss, he is not Mark Streit. He is Weber, and he was supposed to develop into a threat on the PP, be good in transition, and solid in his end. He has not been consistent at any of those.

But, if you must...

Subban is doing fine. Less on the score sheet than last year and that is why his turnovers seem bad, but still, he is holding down top minutes and the Habs have a great GAA.

Eller, is doing ok as a 3rd center. He is not top 2 material yet, but could become if the stars align.

DD, I totally admit to not having much faith in. But I can admit I was wrong on that one. He is playing very well.

Palushaj will not make it. He has not been a factor in any game yet.

The Gorges comparison is not holding any water. He was not slotted to solve the PP. He has developed into a PK specialist and a good overall D, as well as a leader on the team. The only similarity to Weber is that they both play D.

You think he needs MORE chances. I say he has had his shot.

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02-02-2012, 02:07 PM
  #96
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Not sure what roster you are talking about.

Until midseason last year he was pretty much in the AHL full time. The last calendar year he has played NHL...81 GP 5-19-24 30 PIMs -2. Those are not bad rookie numbers.

The guy is 23, I'm sure half the guys in the NHL were not full time regulars at 23. He has shown flashes of top 4 potential this year. He's had ups and downs like all rookies. Even super talented d-men like Subban, Myers and Schenn have had growing pains their first few years. All were scratched their 2nd or 3rd years.

If you can trade him and get great value back, great, but to just dump him because he doesn't meet your ridiculous standards makes no sense at all.

You should look into being a television evangelist instead of posting on hockey boards.
TV evangelist.... wow. Well crafted.

I never said trade him. I just don't think he should be built around. I do not think any player should be held back n the hopes that Weber will suddenly grow the sense of anticipation, that he will learn to have confidence and carry the puck with speed through the neutral zone, that he will no longer need the puck to have a pretty yellow ribbon around it before he accepts a pass for the one timer, that one day, the puck will not seem like a grenade to him.

Are you really comparing Weber to Myers, Subban or Schenn? Really?

My ridiculous standards...yeah. I guess I am a bad guy because I can say that every young guy will not be a pillar to an NHL team.

Let's just lower the bar so far that everyone can jump over them. They are all stars in their mommies' eyes.


Now let me prepare my next sermon, "why you are all perfect and unique like snowflakes".

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02-02-2012, 02:28 PM
  #97
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I don't see why you see the need to start pulling every other player's development in on the discussion. Each players profile and development is different. That is why just because he is young, a D and Swiss, he is not Mark Streit. He is Weber, and he was supposed to develop into a threat on the PP, be good in transition, and solid in his end. He has not been consistent at any of those.

But, if you must...

Subban is doing fine. Less on the score sheet than last year and that is why his turnovers seem bad, but still, he is holding down top minutes and the Habs have a great GAA.

Eller, is doing ok as a 3rd center. He is not top 2 material yet, but could become if the stars align.

DD, I totally admit to not having much faith in. But I can admit I was wrong on that one. He is playing very well.

Palushaj will not make it. He has not been a factor in any game yet.

The Gorges comparison is not holding any water. He was not slotted to solve the PP. He has developed into a PK specialist and a good overall D, as well as a leader on the team. The only similarity to Weber is that they both play D.

You think he needs MORE chances. I say he has had his shot.
You're the one saying this ? lol



and yet, at the same age Gorges was NOT good defensively, NOT a PK specialist and he was ragdolled on pretty much every shift...



No, I'm saying the Org needs to give itself more chances by giving enough time to kids to develop... cause as you said yourself, not everyone will develop the same...

Habs gave away Grabovski after a huge 24 games, they gave away McDonaugh AND Valentenko after 0 games, they also thought Latendresse wasnt good enough for top 6 duties (like most Habs fans), they also gave away Sergei after a hundred games, Streit wasnt good enough to play D for the Habs either...


how many more do we have to give away ?

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02-02-2012, 02:33 PM
  #98
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TV evangelist.... wow. Well crafted.

I never said trade him. I just don't think he should be built around. I do not think any player should be held back n the hopes that Weber will suddenly grow the sense of anticipation, that he will learn to have confidence and carry the puck with speed through the neutral zone, that he will no longer need the puck to have a pretty yellow ribbon around it before he accepts a pass for the one timer, that one day, the puck will not seem like a grenade to him.

Are you really comparing Weber to Myers, Subban or Schenn? Really?

My ridiculous standards...yeah. I guess I am a bad guy because I can say that every young guy will not be a pillar to an NHL team.

Let's just lower the bar so far that everyone can jump over them. They are all stars in their mommies' eyes.


Now let me prepare my next sermon, "why you are all perfect and unique like snowflakes".
who would be held back this year, Gill ? Campoli ? Diaz ?

and next year ?

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02-02-2012, 03:41 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Somebody has to take the blame and Weber is used to it.
And he can speak French too. A keeper.

Honestly, I prefer #BlameWeber to #BlameSubban but twitter disagrees.

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02-02-2012, 04:04 PM
  #100
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
absolutely no reason to move Weber right now unless some team comes in with a crazy overpayment, or he becomes the tipping point piece in a much larger deal (but again, we'd have to be getting significant return on the dollar in said deal).


otherwise, you keep him, you pencil him as- at worst- the 7th dman next year.

at his age, another offseason of strengthening and conditioning, plus the experience of another NHL season under his belt, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't come into camp a better player.

let him battle for a top-6 spot, and at worst he's a very solid 7th dman, better than the Wowytka or Campoli we were heading into this year with.


My bet is that, assuming we don't move him, he earns a roster spot next season clearly, and finishes the year playing ~18min/game while putting up 30-40pts.

Subban
Diaz
Weber

as our RD, assuming we can replace Gill with a more effective defensive dman, would give us a very good defensive group (with Gorges and Markov rounding it out... or with Kaberle replacing Markov if he's in fact done).
The problem isn't with the player, it's the make up of our group.

PK-Weber-Diaz-Emelin-Gorges-Markov-Kaberle.

Too many similar players.
Diaz, Weber, Kaberle, Markov. They all have a similar style.

PK-Emelin-Gorges is a great core to build around. If Markov is back, then amazing. But Kaberle is still here. We absolutely need more physicality from our back end.
Can't go into next season with pretty much the same Defense.
Markov's addition would be great, obviously, but we'd still be lacking some size and physicality.

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