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Injury Talk 4.0: Markov practicing with the team, now with contact

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Old
02-02-2012, 01:03 PM
  #276
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What would be a good contingency play if Markov gets hurt? Let's trade Price to Chicago for Duncan Keith?
I can tell you that a good contingency plan is NOT Campoli. I can tell you that if you're going to let Wiz go then you better hang onto Hamrlyk if you want to make the playoffs. We all assumed that Markov was going to be ready coming into the season and when he wasn't... we were caught flat footed.
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Guys like that don't grow on trees, even if you fear them getting hurt, you can't replace them. Whoever steps in won't be as good and the team as a whole is weakened...when Hamrlik was stepping in to the top guy role it weakened the #3-4 spots on defense.

My biggest issue with the Markov situation is, was his knee 100% when he hurt it last year, why did they not find out about the "loose bodies" in the knee until December? On the medical side his treatment/recovery looks like it's been very poorly handled from the outside.
Sure, guys like him aren't easy to replace. But again, look at how well we did with Wiz. Just because a guy can't be fully replaced doesn't mean that we have to leave a huge hole out there. It's like losing Carey Price. Sure we could replace him. I don't think we'd be able to replace him as easily as Ozy suggested earlier but we could do better than Budaj. Capioli was kind of like the Budaj of backup plans. And to make matters worse when he didn't work out we tied ourselves to that silly Kaberle deal.

In my mind, this season is kind of a blessing in disguise. We've needed to rebuild for a long time anyway. If there's something to be happy about here with this terrible season it's that it might force management's hand into doing something about it. Hopefully Markov comes back healthy and we have some new younger players to build around with him. It sucks to lose the season and it's too bad this rebuild looks like it's happening unintentionally but hopefully we'll get something out of it at least.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Concussions are a lot harder to predict and nail down than knee or shoulder injuries. Not a lot is known about brain injuries and recovery.
That's true as a general rule. I don't see how that really helps us in this case however. In Markov's case that Knee has been busted up pretty good. There's no way we can rely on him being healthy anymore. If he's healthy, that's fantastic. He'd be a huge factor for us and we improve our team greatly. But we can't keep making the same mistakes and we have to assume he's going to get hurt. We should be planning for the worst case scenario with him instead of blindly hoping for the best.

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02-02-2012, 01:05 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by price131 View Post
Your postdoesn't really get to the issue. You said the Habs are a 100 point team with Markov, as in the current team, which is why I said no. First of all, this team is worse than any of the teams you listed, second, we must factor that Markov is older and more fragile.

Basically, for Markov to make this team a 100 point team he would need to be worth 11+ wins over the course of a season.

I like Markov and he's been great, obviously but at this stage it's a massive stretch to say he's the most important player on the roster and it's completely unrealistic to expect Markov to actually make this roster a 100 point team.

Also, just out of curiosity, why did you leave out last year's numbers with Markov and without?
stats are stats but things change due to circumstances and so on--
Markov could have been on the etam all season and highly doubtfull the team gets anywhere near 100 points- chances are they would be fighting it out for 7th 8th

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02-02-2012, 01:09 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by physicx View Post
ouch! Well then... Obviously, he won't be in top shape in his first couple of games, but i'd hate to see montreal with a slightly above .500 average from this point on until the end of the season. Hopefully, markov is healed 100%, but i can totally see his reinsertion in the line-up advance us to 10th/9th.
nnnnnnoooooooooooo...

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02-02-2012, 01:09 PM
  #279
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I'm a bit divided about Markov... If he comes back and plays great it could give a boost to the team and have us finish like 20th. On the other end its better for next year if he plays a bit this year, he'll be less rusty and we'll be able to see how effective he is/can be and plan consequently this summer.

Solution? Bring Markov when he is absolutely certain to be 100%, have Blunden play on the first line with Budaj in goal and Darche on the PP.


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Originally Posted by mind_the_gap View Post
Markov staked for 30 min today apparently.
Good, because he would have to play 30 minutes per game to save this team!

Quote:
Originally Posted by price131
Your postdoesn't really get to the issue. You said the Habs are a 100 point team with Markov, as in the current team, which is why I said no. First of all, this team is worse than any of the teams you listed, second, we must factor that Markov is older and more fragile.

Basically, for Markov to make this team a 100 point team he would need to be worth 11+ wins over the course of a season.
100 points is a lot for this team even with Markov but I'm sure we'd be a playoff team at least. If we had a powerplay we'd have a lot more wins, and its possible Markov alone would have made it work. Has he ever been quarterback of a powerplay that wasn't top5 in the NHL? He also makes the forwards look better and is a beast at even strenght. He's also quite good in the shootout, so theres a few more wins LOL

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02-02-2012, 01:22 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I can tell you that a good contingency plan is NOT Campoli. I can tell you that if you're going to let Wiz go then you better hang onto Hamrlyk if you want to make the playoffs. We all assumed that Markov was going to be ready coming into the season and when he wasn't... we were caught flat footed.

Sure, guys like him aren't easy to replace. But again, look at how well we did with Wiz. Just because a guy can't be fully replaced doesn't mean that we have to leave a huge hole out there. It's like losing Carey Price. Sure we could replace him. I don't think we'd be able to replace him as easily as Ozy suggested earlier but we could do better than Budaj. Capioli was kind of like the Budaj of backup plans. And to make matters worse when he didn't work out we tied ourselves to that silly Kaberle deal.

In my mind, this season is kind of a blessing in disguise. We've needed to rebuild for a long time anyway. If there's something to be happy about here with this terrible season it's that it might force management's hand into doing something about it. Hopefully Markov comes back healthy and we have some new younger players to build around with him. It sucks to lose the season and it's too bad this rebuild looks like it's happening unintentionally but hopefully we'll get something out of it at least.

That's true as a general rule. I don't see how that really helps us in this case however. In Markov's case that Knee has been busted up pretty good. There's no way we can rely on him being healthy anymore. If he's healthy, that's fantastic. He'd be a huge factor for us and we improve our team greatly. But we can't keep making the same mistakes and we have to assume he's going to get hurt. We should be planning for the worst case scenario with him instead of blindly hoping for the best.
You can have contingency plans, but at the end of the day, nobody expected in their worst case scenario that Markov would miss 3/4 of this year.

Malkin had ACL and MCL surgery last January or February and he was back for the start of the season, had a few minor setbacks but is now the best player in the NHL a year later.

I know this is Markov's 2nd time with the ACL but it still shouldn't be a 15 month injury. There is a list of famous athletes that had ACL surgeries longer than my arm, it's a pretty common thing.

Campoli was a better contingency plan than Hamrlik and Wisniewski because of contract term. Wisniewski ended up getting 6 years from CBJ, even if he only cost us 5 mil, committing 30 mil and 6 years on a plan B with Subban weber Diaz and Bealieu on the way would have been terrible asset mangement. Wisniewski's money was spent on Cole, I think we got more return on that one. Hamrlik as a 35+ giving him more than 1 year was pretty risky. Campoli was fine until HE busted up his leg, even when he came back he didn't look right. He is a much better player than the version we have seen, right now he's stuck because he is behind a lot of similar guys and it makes no sense to sit the young guys.
You say Markov's knnee is busted up and we can't count on him, how can you justify giving anything close to 6 years or 33 mil to a guy like Wisniewsky who's had THREE ACL reconstructions then?

The PP issues go a lot deeper than the point, it's the complete lack of threat up front, Cammalleri should be a major asset(see Briere, Giroux etc) on the PP, instaed he had ONE PP goal halfway through the year so teams keyed on the point men and we had no answer. If you are too predictable you are easily stoppable. I thought AK looked good on the halfboards but they never really gave him a shot there.

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02-02-2012, 01:47 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by speed11 View Post
checking stats? you're assuming if markov plays a full season, we become a 100pt team

as if markov would play 82 games in a season to prorate those numbers.
I'm not assuming anything, you're the one who is unable to follow a conversation properly.

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Originally Posted by price131 View Post
Your postdoesn't really get to the issue. You said the Habs are a 100 point team with Markov, as in the current team, which is why I said no. First of all, this team is worse than any of the teams you listed, second, we must factor that Markov is older and more fragile.

Basically, for Markov to make this team a 100 point team he would need to be worth 11+ wins over the course of a season.

I like Markov and he's been great, obviously but at this stage it's a massive stretch to say he's the most important player on the roster and it's completely unrealistic to expect Markov to actually make this roster a 100 point team.

Also, just out of curiosity, why did you leave out last year's numbers with Markov and without?


Ok, you two will have to take a huge breather and realize a few things.

1- The poster I responded to said Markov was second most important to the team behind Price

2- Those stats were to show that Markov is more important to the team as he yeilded a 100 points average over 5 seasons with numerous goalies other than Price and including Price.

3- I never said anyting about the present season

4- After your inept attempt at saying it was wrong and which I proved was right, you then come back and try to twist my intent to save face, pretending I was correlating those stats to the present season, when all I did was to show Markov is more important than Price.

Lastly, it is no stretch to say Markov is still the most important player on the team, as 1- Price himself said so (I guess you know better than him, right?) 2- we don't know he won't be back to form. Most knee injured players have had significant success after similar operations (Malkin, Williams, Wiz). For now, we can expect him to come back to normal, that's the realistic outlook. The pessimistic outlook is that he won't be back to how he was before. And yes, I'll answer the question you both pretended I already answered, Habs would more likely be a 100 points team with Markov on a full season with the present lineup. The only reason you're both not seeing this, is the same reason why you both made ill-informed knee-jerk reactions to my initial post : You're both basing your conclusions on your emotional view of the team. Both of you contested my post without even checking if it was true beforehand, you both prematurely concluded that it was wrong based on that emotional outlook. Don't preach about being 'realistic' when you're not even able to take hold of your emotions and check facts to properly form your conclusions.


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02-02-2012, 01:54 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I'm not assuming anything, you're the one who is unable to follow a conversation properly.





Ok, you two will have to take a huge breather and realize a few things.

1- The poster I responded to said Markov was second most important to the team behind Price

2- Those stats were to show that Markov is more important to the team as he yeilded a 100 points average over 5 seasons with numerous goalies other than Price and including Price.

3- I never said anyting about the present season

4- After your inept attempt at saying it was wrong and which I proved was right, you then come back and try to twist my intent to save face, pretending I was correlating those stats to the present season, when all I did was to show Markov is more important than Price.

Lastly, it is no stretch to say Markov is still the most important player on the team, as 1- Price himself said so (I guess you know better than him, right?) 2- we don't know he won't be back to form. Most knee injured players have had significant success after similar operations (Malkin, Williams, Wiz). For now, we can expect him to come back to normal, that's the realistic outlook. The pessimistic outlook is that he won't be back to how he was before.
thats not realistic- Markov WILL NOT be as good as he was before the injuries started - now thats realistic- could Markov still help the team? Yes-- but i dont beleive he will be as big a factor as he once was- thats also very realistic-

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02-02-2012, 02:03 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You can have contingency plans, but at the end of the day, nobody expected in their worst case scenario that Markov would miss 3/4 of this year.
Why wouldn't you plan for the worst case scenario here? That's what a smart GM would do. This was his 2nd surgery dude and he hadn't played much hockey in the previous two seasons so why wouldn't we expect this?

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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Malkin had ACL and MCL surgery last January or February and he was back for the start of the season, had a few minor setbacks but is now the best player in the NHL a year later.

I know this is Markov's 2nd time with the ACL but it still shouldn't be a 15 month injury. There is a list of famous athletes that had ACL surgeries longer than my arm, it's a pretty common thing.
We went in probably expecting too much of Subban. We assumed that he'd just produce better offensively than he did last year and we didn't really give ourselves any kind of buffer there.

I understand letting Wiz walk. That was an insane contract. But if you let him walk you've got to keep Hammer or find somebody else. As I told you back in the summer, we're going to get a patch fix and that's exactly what happened. Only this time it didn't work out.

That is a reactive way to run a club and it was not good planning dude.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Campoli was a better contingency plan than Hamrlik and Wisniewski because of contract term. Wisniewski ended up getting 6 years from CBJ, even if he only cost us 5 mil, committing 30 mil and 6 years on a plan B with Subban weber Diaz and Bealieu on the way would have been terrible asset mangement. Wisniewski's money was spent on Cole, I think we got more return on that one. Hamrlik as a 35+ giving him more than 1 year was pretty risky. Campoli was fine until HE busted up his leg, even when he came back he didn't look right. He is a much better player than the version we have seen, right now he's stuck because he is behind a lot of similar guys and it makes no sense to sit the young guys.
Campioli was sitting at home as the season approached. He might not have even had a job for opening night had we not showed up. That's not the kind of guy that you bring on if you're losing Markov.

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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You say Markov's knnee is busted up and we can't count on him, how can you justify giving anything close to 6 years or 33 mil to a guy like Wisniewsky who's had THREE ACL reconstructions then?
I don't. I don't have any problem with letting him go at that price. I thought those dollars and term were ridiculous. I don't blame management for letting him walk. If anything I feel bad for PG because that trade actually seemed like a pretty good one. If Wiz didn't turn out to be as greedy as he did, PG would've looked pretty smart on that trade too. But he wasn't able to convince him to stay with us for reasonable dollars so, I have no issue with letting him go.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The PP issues go a lot deeper than the point, it's the complete lack of threat up front, Cammalleri should be a major asset(see Briere, Giroux etc) on the PP, instaed he had ONE PP goal halfway through the year so teams keyed on the point men and we had no answer. If you are too predictable you are easily stoppable. I thought AK looked good on the halfboards but they never really gave him a shot there.
Well, a guy like Wiz obviously makes a huge difference. I thought our PP would've been better for sure but when it became apparent that it wasn't working we did our usual patchwork fix to try for 8th place again. We do this seemingly every year and it's not really going to lead to any kind of long term success.

Look, maybe Markov comes back and is better than ever. Everyone would love to see that but we shouldn't be expecting this. If we have playoff hopes next season then we should plan for him being out of the lineup and hope that he surprises us. I have no problem with us not doing this btw, if it mean rebuilding but if we're going for the playoffs then we need some kind of plan before we go into next year.

Personally, I'd rather just see a rebuild but you already know that.
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
2- Those stats were to show that Markov is more important to the team as he yeilded a 100 points average over 5 seasons with numerous goalies other than Price and including Price..
Given that we usually had two good goalies back then being able to choose between guys like Price, Huet and Halak I'd say that Markov being our best and most important player was definitely true. If you lost Price you had Halak or Huet there and they were great goalies in their own right.

I don't know about that today though. With Budaj as our backup Price is extremely important to us and we now have a guy like Subban who's strong on D. Markov was a great blueliner but who knows what this guy is going to be like when/if he comes back.

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02-02-2012, 02:07 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Ok, you two will have to take a huge breather and realize a few things.

1- The poster I responded to said Markov was second most important to the team behind Price

2- Those stats were to show that Markov is more important to the team as he yeilded a 100 points average over 5 seasons with numerous goalies other than Price and including Price.

3- I never said anyting about the present season

4- After your inept attempt at saying it was wrong and which I proved was right, you then come back and try to twist my intent to save face, pretending I was correlating those stats to the present season, when all I did was to show Markov is more important than Price.
Well first of all, even if what you're saying is true, posting stats from Markov during his prime years, pre knee injuries is hardly compelling to the argument. Really, if we're talking about Markov's actual value when coming back it's a guessing game but it's definitely fair to assume given his age and injury that he won't be as good as he was during the stretch from the stats you posted.

Second and most importantly, I replied to you and highlighted you saying the Habs are a 100 point team with Markov in the lineup, 'are' being used in the present tense would imply that this Habs team is a 100 point team with Markov.

Anyway, like I said, you didn't prove anything other than that Markov was great prior to all this. We knew that. If the argument was, is Markov in his prime more valuable than Price today, it's a compelling argument but otherwise it's irrelevant.

Lastly, I never said Price was more valuable than Markov. I just highlighted a portion of your post saying basically Habs are a 100 point team with Markov in the lineup for a full season, no matter the goalie and replied "lol, no" because this team, with Markov is NOT a 100 point team. It may just be an issue of poor communication, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Lastly, it is no stretch to say Markov is still the most important player on the team, as 1- Price himself said so (I guess you know better than him, right?) 2- we don't know he won't be back to form. Most knee injured players have had significant success after similar operations (Malkin, Williams, Wiz). For now, we can expect him to come back to normal, that's the realistic outlook. The pessimistic outlook is that he won't be back to how he was before. And yes, I'll answer the question you both pretended I already answered, Habs would more likely be a 100 points team with Markov on a full season with the present lineup. The only reason you're both not seeing this, is the same reason why you both made ill-informed knee-jerk reactions to my initial post : You're both basing your conclusions on your emotional view of the team. Both of you contested my post without even checking if it was true beforehand, you both prematurely concluded that it was wrong based on that emotional outlook. Don't preach about being 'realistic' when you're not even able to take hold of your emotions and check facts to properly form your conclusions.
This is a complete straw man argument because I never implied to debated who's more value, Price or Markov. Maybe you're confused?

Anyway, yes, some players comeback as strong as ever but Markov has had several major injuries and several setbacks, never mind the fact that he's significantly older than all of your examples were. I'm not saying he won't be as good, but even if he was healthy all this time, he's getting to an age where most DMen do start to decline so there is that. Nevermind the fact that there's always a chance of regression when talking about multiple serious injuries. It's not being pessimistic. He's older and he's been badly hurt enough to make it at least a question mark.

You talking about emotions is hilarious because I'm not emotional at all, frankly I'm not completely sure you know what you're talking about. Like I said, communication maybe the issue?

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02-02-2012, 02:15 PM
  #285
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thats not realistic- Markov WILL NOT be as good as he was before the injuries started - now thats realistic- could Markov still help the team? Yes-- but i dont beleive he will be as big a factor as he once was- thats also very realistic-
No it's not.

Players who've had the same surgeries have come back to be as good as they were. The examples are numerous. Wiz has had it even worst than Markov and had his best season after his three surgeries, and don't talk to me about age. 26 and 32 year old doesn't make any difference when you're talking about highly trained athletes. Malkin has had the same surgery. Williams too. Many others including some of the best QB in the NFL. It is also good to note that Markov's first surgery wasn't the same surgery as the last one he had in Dec 2010 and not the same surgery Malkin, Williams and Wiz had.

Wiz followed a similar path to Markov as his first two surgeries were grafts like Markov's first surgery, and none of them held off. Both Wiz's 3rd surgery and Markov's 2nd surgery were transplants, not grafts, and it seems to be holding on pretty well for Wiz. Transplants are much better because it is the natural ligament they are using as replacement, whereas in the case of grafts, they take unatural ligaments from other parts of the body which have significantly less chance of holding on.

The history of ACL and MLC surgeries suggests a full recovery and 100% return to form. That's the realistic outlook. Does it mean Markov is sure to be 100%? No, but it's still the most probable outcome.

The only thing you base your own conclusions on is pessimism, not facts. You're not realistic.

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02-02-2012, 02:19 PM
  #286
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No it's not.

Players who've had the same surgeries have come back to be as good as they were. The examples are numerous. Wiz has had it even worst than Markov and had his best season after his three surgeries, and don't talk to me about age. 26 and 32 year old doesn't make any difference when you're talking about highly trained athletes. Malkin has had the same surgery. Williams too. Many others including some of the best QB in the NFL. It is also good to note that Markov's first surgery wasn't the same surgery as the last one he had in Dec 2010 and not the same surgery Malkin, Williams and Wiz had.

Wiz followed a similar path to Markov as his first two surgeries were grafts like Markov's first surgery, and none of them held off. Both Wiz's 3rd surgery and Markov's 2nd surgery were transplants, not grafts, and it seems to be holding on pretty well for Wiz. Transplants are much better because it is the natural ligament they are using as replacement, whereas in the case of grafts, they take unatural ligaments from other parts of the body which have significantly less chance of holding on.

The history of ACL and MLC surgeries suggests a full recovery and 100% return to form. That's the realistic outlook. Does it mean Markov is sure to be 100%? No, but it's still the most probable outcome.

The only thing you base your own conclusions on is pessimism, not facts. You're not realistic.
With all due respect man, you've been saying this for two years now and the guy has barely even played. You don't know anymore than we do how he'll play when he returns - or when he will return for that matter. We've already wasted two years expecting him to come back and he hasn't. At some point you have to stop touching the stove when you get burnt.


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02-02-2012, 02:23 PM
  #287
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Well first of all, even if what you're saying is true, posting stats from Markov during his prime years, pre knee injuries is hardly compelling to the argument. Really, if we're talking about Markov's actual value when coming back it's a guessing game but it's definitely fair to assume given his age and injury that he won't be as good as he was during the stretch from the stats you posted.

Second and most importantly, I replied to you and highlighted you saying the Habs are a 100 point team with Markov in the lineup, 'are' being used in the present tense would imply that this Habs team is a 100 point team with Markov.

Anyway, like I said, you didn't prove anything other than that Markov was great prior to all this. We knew that. If the argument was, is Markov in his prime more valuable than Price today, it's a compelling argument but otherwise it's irrelevant.

Lastly, I never said Price was more valuable than Markov. I just highlighted a portion of your post saying basically Habs are a 100 point team with Markov in the lineup for a full season, no matter the goalie and replied "lol, no" because this team, with Markov is NOT a 100 point team. It may just be an issue of poor communication, I suppose.



This is a complete straw man argument because I never implied to debated who's more value, Price or Markov. Maybe you're confused?

Anyway, yes, some players comeback as strong as ever but Markov has had several major injuries and several setbacks, never mind the fact that he's significantly older than all of your examples were. I'm not saying he won't be as good, but even if he was healthy all this time, he's getting to an age where most DMen do start to decline so there is that. Nevermind the fact that there's always a chance of regression when talking about multiple serious injuries. It's not being pessimistic. He's older and he's been badly hurt enough to make it at least a question mark.

You talking about emotions is hilarious because I'm not emotional at all, frankly I'm not completely sure you know what you're talking about. Like I said, communication maybe the issue?
Do yourself a big favor and retrace the whole conversation which did not start off with you. You have a real hard time following a conversation, it seems. You're the one who used a strawman argument, and you're the one who jumped to a conclusion (based on semantics, and not the initial post I was responding to), when all that was needed was to look at the initial assertion I was responding too. If you persist in repeating these lies, I will post the series of quotes, and yes you were emotional -as in analytical vs emotional- when you reacted by your 'lol no' without even checking if what I implied was true (which it was), you made a conclusion based on nothing else than your immature pessimistic outlook.

The bolded part is a complete proof of that, as you are entirely ignoring that it was exactly WHAT I WAS DEBATING WITH THE OTHER POSTER IN THE FIRST PLACE. It's not a strawman, it's you who are unable to recognize that I was talking to someone else, and that like a child you butted into the conversation, while completely ignoring what was said in the first place.

You're the one who is confused buddy. Go look up the first post I responded to, maybe then you'll be less confused.

Also, I want to point out the other bolded part where you say "most importantly". You're being completely dishonest about the semantic, as your purposefuly ommited to include the last part of my sentence, which said "no matter the goalie", which gives the outlook of HISTORY, not the present. But keep twisting everything.


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02-02-2012, 02:33 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Do yourself a big favor and retrace the whole conversation which did not start off with you. You have a real hard time following a conversation, it seems. You're the one who used a strawman argument, and you're the one who jumped to a conclusion (based on semantics, and not the initial post I was responding to), when all that was needed was to look at the initial assertion I was responding too. If you persist in repeating these lies, I will post the series of quotes, and yes you were emotional -as in analytical vs emotional- when you reacted by your 'lol no' without even checking if what I implied was true (which it was), you made a conclusion based on nothing else than your immature pessimistic outlook.
I highlighted a very specific part of your post and replied lol, no. The rest of your pointless crusade is irrelevant to me. If you think it's semantics, fine, I accepted that you may have misspoke when you stated Markov makes the Habs a 100 point team in the present tense.

And my "lol, no" was based on the fact that I think it's pretty funny to imply Markov makes any Hab team, including the current version a 100 point team if he plays 82 games. Like I said, probably an issue of broken English but go ahead, repost your whole debate. Please.

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02-02-2012, 02:36 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
This is disgraceful, I hope you guys are proud of yourselves and your ridiculously immature attempt at witty one-liners while reveling in the misfortune of the best player on your favourite team. Seriously, why come to this thread and hang around making stupid posts like this? Find something better to do with your life other than cheering for the guy to be constantly injured / retired.
I guess you're about the only one that didn't catch the sarcasm especially the pancakes and what happened earlier.

Markov is our best Dman and I still think PG was better signing him than the Wiz.

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02-02-2012, 02:37 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
No it's not.

Players who've had the same surgeries have come back to be as good as they were. The examples are numerous. Wiz has had it even worst than Markov and had his best season after his three surgeries, and don't talk to me about age. 26 and 32 year old doesn't make any difference when you're talking about highly trained athletes. Malkin has had the same surgery. Williams too. Many others including some of the best QB in the NFL. It is also good to note that Markov's first surgery wasn't the same surgery as the last one he had in Dec 2010 and not the same surgery Malkin, Williams and Wiz had.

Wiz followed a similar path to Markov as his first two surgeries were grafts like Markov's first surgery, and none of them held off. Both Wiz's 3rd surgery and Markov's 2nd surgery were transplants, not grafts, and it seems to be holding on pretty well for Wiz. Transplants are much better because it is the natural ligament they are using as replacement, whereas in the case of grafts, they take unatural ligaments from other parts of the body which have significantly less chance of holding on.

The history of ACL and MLC surgeries suggests a full recovery and 100% return to form. That's the realistic outlook. Does it mean Markov is sure to be 100%? No, but it's still the most probable outcome.

The only thing you base your own conclusions on is pessimism, not facts. You're not realistic.
sorry man- but your head is in the clouds- MArkov WILL NOT BE as GOOD as he was before the Knee- you can take that to the bank and cash it - he will not be 100% of what he was- you can talk till the cows come home- but it is not going to change the facts- nothing to do with pesimist- its reality-

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02-02-2012, 02:37 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
The bolded part is a complete proof of that, as you are entirely ignoring that it was exactly WHAT I WAS DEBATING WITH THE OTHER POSTER IN THE FIRST PLACE. It's not a strawman, it's you who are unable to recognize that I was talking to someone else, and that like a child you butted into the conversation, while completely ignoring what was said in the first place.
Butted in? Dude, you're posting on an open forum in an open thread. I didn't cite the rest of your argument because it's irrelevant to what I was replying to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You're the one who is confused buddy. Go look up the first post I responded to, maybe then you'll be less confused.

Also, I want to point out the other bolded part where you say "most importantly". You're being completely dishonest about the semantic, as your purposefuly ommited to include the last part of my sentence, which said "no matter the goalie", which gives the outlook of HISTORY, not the present. But keep twisting everything.
I read your whole debate, and that's not the point because it has no barring on what I was disagreeing with in your post. I disagreed with the use of present tense. As for that last part, I'm not completely sure what you're talking about but you did speak in the PRESENT tense in the part I highlighted, which is why I replied. It was clearly a mistake on your part and I shouldn't even gotten involved, I wasn't aware that you were so emotional and irrational.

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02-02-2012, 02:42 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
thats not realistic- Markov WILL NOT be as good as he was before the injuries started - now thats realistic- could Markov still help the team? Yes-- but i dont beleive he will be as big a factor as he once was- thats also very realistic-
OK and if it isn't realistic to think that please explain why when numerous other players have underwent the same thing and came out fine?

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02-02-2012, 02:44 PM
  #293
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Stoked that he's skating again. Same or not, he'll still be our best blueliner.

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02-02-2012, 02:44 PM
  #294
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OK and if it isn't realistic to think that please explain why when numerous other players have underwent the same thing and came out fine?
No two cases are exactly the same.

Markov reminds me more and more like Bobby Orr (not talent wise or production wise) but the way his carreer is going down the drain because of serious knee injuries.

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02-02-2012, 02:46 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
Stoked that he's skating again. Same or not, he'll still be our best blueliner.
I would like to see how a Markov Emelin combo would do. But it might be better to do Markov Gorges at first and maybe Emelin Subban. Emelin has looked a lot better lately on the right side he has been pretty good even with RC switching him between both sides during the game.

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02-02-2012, 02:46 PM
  #296
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Why wouldn't you plan for the worst case scenario here? That's what a smart GM would do. This was his 2nd surgery dude and he hadn't played much hockey in the previous two seasons so why wouldn't we expect this?


We went in probably expecting too much of Subban. We assumed that he'd just produce better offensively than he did last year and we didn't really give ourselves any kind of buffer there.

I understand letting Wiz walk. That was an insane contract. But if you let him walk you've got to keep Hammer or find somebody else. As I told you back in the summer, we're going to get a patch fix and that's exactly what happened. Only this time it didn't work out.

That is a reactive way to run a club and it was not good planning dude.

Campioli was sitting at home as the season approached. He might not have even had a job for opening night had we not showed up. That's not the kind of guy that you bring on if you're losing Markov.


I don't. I don't have any problem with letting him go at that price. I thought those dollars and term were ridiculous. I don't blame management for letting him walk. If anything I feel bad for PG because that trade actually seemed like a pretty good one. If Wiz didn't turn out to be as greedy as he did, PG would've looked pretty smart on that trade too. But he wasn't able to convince him to stay with us for reasonable dollars so, I have no issue with letting him go.

Well, a guy like Wiz obviously makes a huge difference. I thought our PP would've been better for sure but when it became apparent that it wasn't working we did our usual patchwork fix to try for 8th place again. We do this seemingly every year and it's not really going to lead to any kind of long term success.

Look, maybe Markov comes back and is better than ever. Everyone would love to see that but we shouldn't be expecting this. If we have playoff hopes next season then we should plan for him being out of the lineup and hope that he surprises us. I have no problem with us not doing this btw, if it mean rebuilding but if we're going for the playoffs then we need some kind of plan before we go into next year.

Personally, I'd rather just see a rebuild but you already know that.

Given that we usually had two good goalies back then being able to choose between guys like Price, Huet and Halak I'd say that Markov being our best and most important player was definitely true. If you lost Price you had Halak or Huet there and they were great goalies in their own right.

I don't know about that today though. With Budaj as our backup Price is extremely important to us and we now have a guy like Subban who's strong on D. Markov was a great blueliner but who knows what this guy is going to be like when/if he comes back.
Because the worst case scenarios at the NHL level are problems that no amount of planning can overcome.

Stars and superstars going down are a fact of life in the NHL and vary rarely can teams overcome it. If Chara goes down last year, no chance in hell Boston wins the cup, heck they probably don't get out of the 1st round. You can say that for pretty much every playoff team. Pittsburgh lost in the 1st round despite being a cup contender, why because their top players were out.

Part of "finding somebody else" to replace Hamrlik is Gorges coming back. It was expected that Subban would progress, even if he played at the level he did 2nd half we'd have been fine. Spacek was expected to be there, he missed most of the 1st half. Campoli was expected to take up #3-4 minutes until Markov was ready and he only played about 12 shifts. The young players other than Markov did a pretty good job, Diaz played better than expected, Emelin played well after a slow start, Weber had some rough stretches but also a 10 game stretch were he was probably our best d-man overall. having Markov's setback(s) plus Campoli's injury plus Spacek's injury, all at the start of the yaer was the "perfect storm" to screw up the defense. Campoli and Spacek are not impact guys, but Campoli can take 20 minutes and both guys are veterans so you don't have to dress 3 and at times 4 rookies(St Denis) all at once.

Who excatly do we bring in in September when Markov had his setback? Campoli is not chopped liver, he played #3-4 minutes last year, part of those were in Chicago.

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02-02-2012, 02:47 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
sorry man- but your head is in the clouds- MArkov WILL NOT BE as GOOD as he was before the Knee- you can take that to the bank and cash it - he will not be 100% of what he was- you can talk till the cows come home- but it is not going to change the facts- nothing to do with pesimist- its reality-
Yeah, nice facts you've used throughout this thread

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02-02-2012, 02:48 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by price131 View Post
I highlighted a very specific part of your post and replied lol, no. The rest of your pointless crusade is irrelevant to me. If you think it's semantics, fine, I accepted that you may have misspoke when you stated Markov makes the Habs a 100 point team in the present tense.

And my "lol, no" was based on the fact that I think it's pretty funny to imply Markov makes any Hab team, including the current version a 100 point team if he plays 82 games. Like I said, probably an issue of broken English but go ahead, repost your whole debate. Please.
And yet completely leave out the fact that you also bolded the part that said "No matter the goalie" which is a good sign that I'm making an assertion based on a historical perspective. And yet you completely leave the fact that the following sentence also clued in to the history of that stat, as I said "and when he's not there we've hardly managed to do as good"... It's not broken english, it's you taking a part of ONE sentence and taking it out of its context. The historical nature of the assertion was quite obvious when I mentioned our poor record when he wasn't there.

Secondly, no amount of twisting will change the fact that your reaction was emotion-based (laughter is an emotional reaction, genius) as 1- you took it out of context 2- ignored the premise 3- have nothing to base your own conclusion on, when in fact, stats show the opposite conclusion 4- have nothing to prove he won't be back 100%, when facts show the opposite conclusion (other cases like Wiz, Malkin, Williams).

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02-02-2012, 02:48 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
No two cases are exactly the same.

Markov reminds me more and more like Bobby Orr (not talent wise or production wise) but the way his carreer is going down the drain because of serious knee injuries.
Why would 2 cases be dramatically different? It's a pretty standard procedure.

Orr played 40 years ago, so it's an example that doesn't apply, they didn't even have arthroscopic surgery back then, taht alone would ahve added 2-3 years to his career.

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02-02-2012, 02:50 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
sorry man- but your head is in the clouds- MArkov WILL NOT BE as GOOD as he was before the Knee- you can take that to the bank and cash it - he will not be 100% of what he was- you can talk till the cows come home- but it is not going to change the facts- nothing to do with pesimist- its reality-
So had Wisniewski not had 3 ACL reconstructions he'd be a superstar?

Tom Brady isn't the QB he was before his injury?

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