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Injury Talk 4.0: Markov practicing with the team, now with contact

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Old
02-02-2012, 02:51 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
No two cases are exactly the same.

Markov reminds me more and more like Bobby Orr (not talent wise or production wise) but the way his carreer is going down the drain because of serious knee injuries.
Of course not, just making a point that these "facts" are meaningless.

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02-02-2012, 02:53 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Because the worst case scenarios at the NHL level are problems that no amount of planning can overcome.

Stars and superstars going down are a fact of life in the NHL and vary rarely can teams overcome it. If Chara goes down last year, no chance in hell Boston wins the cup, heck they probably don't get out of the 1st round. You can say that for pretty much every playoff team. Pittsburgh lost in the 1st round despite being a cup contender, why because their top players were out.

Part of "finding somebody else" to replace Hamrlik is Gorges coming back. It was expected that Subban would progress, even if he played at the level he did 2nd half we'd have been fine. Spacek was expected to be there, he missed most of the 1st half. Campoli was expected to take up #3-4 minutes until Markov was ready and he only played about 12 shifts. The young players other than Markov did a pretty good job, Diaz played better than expected, Emelin played well after a slow start, Weber had some rough stretches but also a 10 game stretch were he was probably our best d-man overall. having Markov's setback(s) plus Campoli's injury plus Spacek's injury, all at the start of the yaer was the "perfect storm" to screw up the defense. Campoli and Spacek are not impact guys, but Campoli can take 20 minutes and both guys are veterans so you don't have to dress 3 and at times 4 rookies(St Denis) all at once.

Who excatly do we bring in in September when Markov had his setback? Campoli is not chopped liver, he played #3-4 minutes last year, part of those were in Chicago.
As I told you in the summer, at some point we're going to get another patchwork fix when Markov inevitably goes down. And that's exactly what happened.

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02-02-2012, 02:55 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Yeah, nice facts you've used throughout this thread
justw ait and see yourself- how you can think Markov will ever be the player he was before the knee injury is puzzling- we are not talking about one knee surgery and a year of- when you see for yourself you should come back on the board and make a new thread on how wrong you were- remember this post

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02-02-2012, 02:56 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
justw ait and see yourself- how you can think Markov will ever be the player he was before the knee injury is puzzling- we are not talking about one knee surgery and a year of- when you see for yourself you should come back on the board and make a new thread on how wrong you were- remember this post
How exactly do you think it will affect his game? Markov has never relied on mobility or speed. He's relied on smarts and vision. Something that will, admittedly, probably take quite some time to get back, but I don't see his knee specifically affecting his game.

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02-02-2012, 02:56 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
As I told you in the summer, at some point we're going to get another patchwork fix when Markov inevitably goes down. And that's exactly what happened.
Not really. It's not like he came back and got hurt again. They screwed up and he had two setbacks. The whole "cleaning up" with arthroscopic surgery should ahve been done last summer in June or July.

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02-02-2012, 02:57 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by price131 View Post
Butted in? Dude, you're posting on an open forum in an open thread. I didn't cite the rest of your argument because it's irrelevant to what I was replying to.
So putting something out of context is not part of using a strawman argument. Stop responding to me. You have no idea how low you've reached.



Quote:
I read your whole debate, and that's not the point because it has no barring on what I was disagreeing with in your post. I disagreed with the use of present tense. As for that last part, I'm not completely sure what you're talking about but you did speak in the PRESENT tense in the part I highlighted, which is why I replied. It was clearly a mistake on your part and I shouldn't even gotten involved, I wasn't aware that you were so emotional and irrational.
And yet that same sentence included many other things (inluding past tense, oops), and clues that I was talking about the history of his impact as I mentioned 'no matter the goalie' and 'we've hardly managed to do as good when he wasn't there. All that is quite enough to understand I was talking in historical perspective, but hey, keep harping on the only thing you think can make you save face.

The fact you're now trying to say I'm the irrational and emotional one is just one more proof of how dishonest you are and how incapable you are of admitting your own mistake.

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02-02-2012, 02:57 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
And yet completely leave out the fact that you also bolded the part that said "No matter the goalie" which is a good sign that I'm making an assertion based on a historical perspective. And yet you completely leave the fact that the following sentence also clued in to the history of that stat, as I said "and when he's not there we've hardly managed to do as good"... It's not broken english, it's you taking a part of ONE sentence and taking it out of its context. The historical nature of the assertion was quite obvious when I mentioned our poor record when he wasn't there.
No matter the goalie doesn't mean it's past tense though. If it wasn't broke English then you clearly meant the Habs are a 100 point team with Markov if he plays 82 games, which means present tense as well as historically, which means I strongly disagree. Like I said, that makes him an 11+ win player at the current pace. Do you really think he's an 11 win player?

And yes, you used historical evidence but people use historical evidence to prove future events or probabilities all the time.

The fact that you keep trying to point out "clues" that you were talking historically and not including present tense (despite actually saying present tense words) shows that it's not as clear as you want to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
4- have nothing to prove he won't be back 100%, when facts show the opposite conclusion (other cases like Wiz, Malkin, Williams).
Right back to the straw man. I never said he wouldn't be back to 100%, I definitely believe it's unlikely but like I said, those 3 cherry picked examples are irrelevant. First of all, as I'm sure even you know, everyone responds differently. Second of all, not all of those players had the same number of injuries as Markov, or as frequently and anyway, they were all younger which is definitely a factor.

I never, once said Markov can't return to his previous levels, but even you have to admit there's question marks. Even if he wasn't hurt, he's getting to an age where there's natural regression. I mean, I could find 3 guys who weren't the same after a couple knee surgeries and make the same stupid, emotional argument but the fact of the matter is we don't know. I'm inclined to be doubtful at this stage, because of the factors I mentioned but I don't think it's moronic to feel the other way.

You're chastising me because I have no proof of my opinion and the obvious fact is you don't either.

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02-02-2012, 02:59 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Of course not, just making a point that these "facts" are meaningless.
you dont have a clue on the situation- to even think that markov will be the player he once was is delusional- his age now- his long extended time of- his 3 knee surgeries plus the achilles - you gotta be kidding yourself-

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02-02-2012, 03:00 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
The fact you're now trying to say I'm the irrational and emotional one is just one more proof of how dishonest you are and how incapable you are of admitting your own mistake.
I do admit my mistake. The mistake was replying in the first place. Clearly you misspoke and evidently I didn't take enough time to look for "clues" in your broken English to see what you really meant. Even though, every "clue" you mention could mean anything, like the fact that I understand you were using historical context but that doesn't mean you weren't using it to predict future performance as well, or speaking in current terms (which you did, evidently incorrectly although you have yet to admit that).

You keep calling people emotional when it's pretty clear to see this is a subject you're very emotional about and I don't even mean it in a derogatory way, like you do, just that you're clearly emotional about the subject of Markov.

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02-02-2012, 03:01 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
How exactly do you think it will affect his game? Markov has never relied on mobility or speed. He's relied on smarts and vision. Something that will, admittedly, probably take quite some time to get back, but I don't see his knee specifically affecting his game.
LOL- what happened last time he came back from the knee?
thats a funny statement multiplt knee surgeries and everything else and it wont effect his game? come on- nice to be smart and see well
BUT

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02-02-2012, 03:02 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by price131 View Post
No matter the goalie doesn't mean it's past tense though. If it wasn't broke English then you clearly meant the Habs are a 100 point team with Markov if he plays 82 games, which means present tense as well as historically, which means I strongly disagree. Like I said, that makes him an 11+ win player at the current pace. Do you really think he's an 11 win player?

And yes, you used historical evidence but people use historical evidence to prove future events or probabilities all the time.

The fact that you keep trying to point out "clues" that you were talking historically and not including present tense (despite actually saying present tense words) shows that it's not as clear as you want to believe.



Right back to the straw man. I never said he wouldn't be back to 100%, I definitely believe it's unlikely but like I said, those 3 cherry picked examples are irrelevant. First of all, as I'm sure even you know, everyone responds differently. Second of all, not all of those players had the same number of injuries as Markov, or as frequently and anyway, they were all younger which is definitely a factor.

I never, once said Markov can't return to his previous levels, but even you have to admit there's question marks. Even if he wasn't hurt, he's getting to an age where there's natural regression. I mean, I could find 3 guys who weren't the same after a couple knee surgeries and make the same stupid, emotional argument but the fact of the matter is we don't know. I'm inclined to be doubtful at this stage, because of the factors I mentioned but I don't think it's moronic to feel the other way.

You're chastising me because I have no proof of my opinion and the obvious fact is you don't either.

No you won't, not unless you look back before the present millenia. That's what you don't get. And yes, the facts (other known cases) show a higher probability of him coming back to form, and the historical facts show that when he's up to form, this team is a 100 points team, no matter the goalie. Deal with it.

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02-02-2012, 03:03 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
How exactly do you think it will affect his game? Markov has never relied on mobility or speed. He's relied on smarts and vision. Something that will, admittedly, probably take quite some time to get back, but I don't see his knee specifically affecting his game.
I agree offensively there's less risk, but in terms of being able to log first pairing minutes, playing significant PK minutes and doubling as half of our shutdown pair, it's not certain he's capable of doing all that again IMO.

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02-02-2012, 03:03 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
No you won't, not unless you look back before the present millenia. That's what you don't get. And yes, the facts (other known cases) show a higher probability of him coming back to form, and the historical facts show that when he's up to form, this team is a 100 points team, no matter the goalie. Deal with it.
back to the future!! LOL

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02-02-2012, 03:03 PM
  #314
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Bring him back next year at this point.

Get a great pick this year.

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02-02-2012, 03:09 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
No you won't, not unless you look back before the present millenia. That's what you don't get. And yes, the facts (other known cases) show a higher probability of him coming back to form, and the historical facts show that when he's up to form, this team is a 100 points team, no matter the goalie. Deal with it.
Like I said, use more relevant examples and it will be more compelling. Find similarly aged players with a similar number of injuries.

Anyway, I'll reiterate that I never said he can't comeback to his previous form, just that I have doubts. As for him coming back and making this team a 100 point team, I don't see it, like at all. Not without other changes. I mean really, what he did ages 27-31 vs what he's going to do ages 33-34 are quite likely different. Even without the major knee injuries.

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02-02-2012, 03:10 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
LOL- what happened last time he came back from the knee?
thats a funny statement multiplt knee surgeries and everything else and it wont effect his game? come on- nice to be smart and see well
BUT
Why don't you actually try and answer the questions people keep asking you, it's bad enough your posts are mostly garbled nonsense, the least you can do is try to take part in a civil discussion without exclaiming "LOL herpty derpty derp".

And Wiz seemed fine last year despite going through more knee reconstructions than markov has, while also playing a more physical game.

In no way am I saying that markov will come back like new, but it's entirely possible that any regression his game suffers comes mostly from the time spent away from the game, and not from the actual damage his knee has suffered.

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02-02-2012, 03:14 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by price131 View Post
I do admit my mistake. The mistake was replying in the first place. Clearly you misspoke and evidently I didn't take enough time to look for "clues" in your broken English to see what you really meant. Even though, every "clue" you mention could mean anything, like the fact that I understand you were using historical context but that doesn't mean you weren't using it to predict future performance as well, or speaking in current terms (which you did, evidently incorrectly although you have yet to admit that).

You keep calling people emotional when it's pretty clear to see this is a subject you're very emotional about and I don't even mean it in a derogatory way, like you do, just that you're clearly emotional about the subject of Markov.
Yaddi yaddi yadda.

Listen, I would write the same exact sentence, with the word Historically at the beginning, and the 'are' is still valid. Everything else in the sentence and the following sentence points to it being historical.

Here, I'll help you, I'll add the word historically, and tell me if it changes the outlook all that much :


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
He's more important than Price. Habs always find good goalies, they've been good in that department well before Price (Halak, Huet, Theodore). But for Markov, Habs were never able to fully replace what he brought. Historically, No matter who's the goalie, Habs are a 100 points team with Markov in the lineup on a full season. But when he's not there, no matter who's the goalie, we've rarely managed to be that good.
It's not broken English, because when using historical context you can still use the present tense. It all depends on context, so no wonder you tried to eliminate as much context as possible. It's just you being obtuse.

One last thing, utimately, your initial reaction was emotional and not based on anything concrete. Once the stats showed up, you started spinning my initial post as much as possible, even going as far as reposting the sentence, but without another part you did bold in your first reply, but since that part showed some of the historical context (no matter who's the goalie), I guess you didn't feel it was necessary to mention.

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02-02-2012, 03:14 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by price131 View Post
Like I said, use more relevant examples and it will be more compelling. Find similarly aged players with a similar number of injuries.

Anyway, I'll reiterate that I never said he can't comeback to his previous form, just that I have doubts. As for him coming back and making this team a 100 point team, I don't see it, like at all. Not without other changes. I mean really, what he did ages 27-31 vs what he's going to do ages 33-34 are quite likely different. Even without the major knee injuries.
this time i agree- i dont beleive its even possible he could come back to his previous form- this isnt fanatasy or a comic book- this is real life amybe some of the psoters should get there knee wacked -major surgery and then come back then get achilles cut-major surgery then come back then get the knee wacked - major surgery- and then get medium surgery again come back they wouldnt be the same just walking never mind having to play in teh NHL

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02-02-2012, 03:22 PM
  #319
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this time i agree- i dont beleive its even possible he could come back to his previous form- this isnt fanatasy or a comic book- this is real life amybe some of the psoters should get there knee wacked -major surgery and then come back then get achilles cut-major surgery then come back then get the knee wacked - major surgery- and then get medium surgery again come back they wouldnt be the same just walking never mind having to play in teh NHL
Wisniewski had 3 ACL surgeries...explain that one?

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02-02-2012, 03:23 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by price131 View Post
Like I said, use more relevant examples and it will be more compelling. Find similarly aged players with a similar number of injuries.

Anyway, I'll reiterate that I never said he can't comeback to his previous form, just that I have doubts. As for him coming back and making this team a 100 point team, I don't see it, like at all. Not without other changes. I mean really, what he did ages 27-31 vs what he's going to do ages 33-34 are quite likely different. Even without the major knee injuries.
They are professional athletes. Recovery isn't any different between a player who is 26 and another who is 32. Pass 35 years old, you might have a point. Players in their early 30s are as physically fit as any 25 year old. Knee surgeries have a high success rate, even in friggin pro football, which is much more physical and hard on the knees.

Since you have a hard time following what people say, you might have missed the part where I said that I'm talking about probabilities, and that historical cases show that the probability is a return to form, but that I'm also not denying he might not come back to form, but facts show it is less likely.

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02-02-2012, 03:24 PM
  #321
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Not really. It's not like he came back and got hurt again. They screwed up and he had two setbacks. The whole "cleaning up" with arthroscopic surgery should ahve been done last summer in June or July.
What do you mean not really? Get real man. It's not like he came back and got hurt again? And what makes this even dumber is that we knew that there were issues at the start of the year.

I don't care why he couldn't come back the fact is he couldn't. His being hurt was entirely predictable LAST year let alone this season. Management has to plan for this next year. They can't keep coming and doing interviews and saying "well gosh, we thought he was ready THIS time." C'mon dude. At some point you have to realize that he's an injury risk and plan accordingly.

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02-02-2012, 03:26 PM
  #322
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Wisniewski had 3 ACL surgeries...explain that one?
2012/01/03 Broken left ankle, injured reserve.
2011/12/31 Broken left ankle, day-to-day.
2011/10/25 Missed 8 games (suspended by nhl).
2011/09/26 Suspended by the NHL for 8 games.
2011/09/24 Suspended by the NHL indefinitely.
2011/07/01 Re-signed by the Columbus Blue Jackets to a six-year contract.
2011/06/29 Acquired from the Montreal Canadiens.
2011/04/27 Missed 1 playoff game (undisclosed).
2011/04/26 Undisclosed, day-to-day.
2011/02/09 Missed 2 games (flu).
2011/02/05 Flu, day-to-day.
2010/12/28 Acquired from the New York Islanders
2010/10/16 Missed 2 games (suspension).
2010/10/12 Suspended by the NHL for two games.
2010/07/30 Acquired from the Anaheim Ducks.
2010/07/05 Filed for salary arbitration.
2010/04/03 Missed 8 games (suspension).
2010/03/18 Suspended by the NHL for 8 games.
2009/11/07 Missed 2 games (suspension).
2009/11/02 Suspended by the NHL for 2 games.
2009/10/21 Missed 3 games (right shoulder injury).
2009/10/11 Right shoulder injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2009/07/13 Re-signed as a restricted free agent by the Anaheim Ducks to a one-year contract.
2009/05/10 Missed 1 playoff game (chest injury).
2009/05/06 Chest injury, day-to-day.
2009/03/04 Acquired from the Chicago Blackhawks.
2008/12/16 Recalled from Rockford (AHL).
2008/12/14 Missed 28 games (right knee surgery).
2008/12/11 Assigned to Rockford (AHL).
2008/09/01 Right knee surgery, sidelined indefinitely.
2008/05/21 Re-signed by the Chicago Blackhawks.
2008/03/14 Missed 1 game (suspension).
2008/03/12 Suspended by the NHL for one game.
2008/01/18 Missed 10 games (sprained right knee).
2007/12/30 Sprained right knee, sidelined indefinitely.
2007/12/05 Missed 3 games (facial injury).
2007/11/28 Facial injury, day-to-day.
2007/08/10 Re-signed as a restricted free agent by the Chicago Blackhawks to a one-year contract.
2007/04/09 Missed the last 15 games of the regular season (right knee injury).
2007/03/09 Right knee injury, remainder of the regular season.
2006/11/14 Recalled from Norfolk (AHL).
2006/11/13 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2006/11/09 Recalled from Norfolk (AHL).
2006/10/01 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2006/04/14 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2006/03/19 Recalled from Norfolk (AHL).
2006/02/13 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2006/01/31 Recalled from Norfolk (AHL).
2005/09/24 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2004/09/16 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2004/03/22 Signed by the Chicago Blackhawks.

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02-02-2012, 03:30 PM
  #323
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What do you mean not really? Get real man. It's not like he came back and got hurt again? And what makes this even dumber is that we knew that there were issues at the start of the year.

I don't care why he couldn't come back the fact is he couldn't. His being hurt was entirely predictable LAST year let alone this season. Management has to plan for this next year. They can't keep coming and doing interviews and saying "well gosh, we thought he was ready THIS time." C'mon dude. At some point you have to realize that he's an injury risk and plan accordingly.
We did plan but the plan went off the rails. Short of having another Markov in Hamilton ready to take his place you won't fully replace him. Hamrlik's game took a step backwards this year, signing him for 2 years would make our situation even worse, Washington is not doing much better witrh Hamrlik there tring to replace Green.

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02-02-2012, 03:32 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by mind_the_gap View Post
Markov staked for 30 min today apparently.
Was this in preparation for his new job as vampire hunter?

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02-02-2012, 03:32 PM
  #325
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2012/01/03 Broken left ankle, injured reserve.
2011/12/31 Broken left ankle, day-to-day.
2011/10/25 Missed 8 games (suspended by nhl).
2011/09/26 Suspended by the NHL for 8 games.
2011/09/24 Suspended by the NHL indefinitely.
2011/07/01 Re-signed by the Columbus Blue Jackets to a six-year contract.
2011/06/29 Acquired from the Montreal Canadiens.
2011/04/27 Missed 1 playoff game (undisclosed).
2011/04/26 Undisclosed, day-to-day.
2011/02/09 Missed 2 games (flu).
2011/02/05 Flu, day-to-day.
2010/12/28 Acquired from the New York Islanders
2010/10/16 Missed 2 games (suspension).
2010/10/12 Suspended by the NHL for two games.
2010/07/30 Acquired from the Anaheim Ducks.
2010/07/05 Filed for salary arbitration.
2010/04/03 Missed 8 games (suspension).
2010/03/18 Suspended by the NHL for 8 games.
2009/11/07 Missed 2 games (suspension).
2009/11/02 Suspended by the NHL for 2 games.
2009/10/21 Missed 3 games (right shoulder injury).
2009/10/11 Right shoulder injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2009/07/13 Re-signed as a restricted free agent by the Anaheim Ducks to a one-year contract.
2009/05/10 Missed 1 playoff game (chest injury).
2009/05/06 Chest injury, day-to-day.
2009/03/04 Acquired from the Chicago Blackhawks.
2008/12/16 Recalled from Rockford (AHL).
2008/12/14 Missed 28 games (right knee surgery).
2008/12/11 Assigned to Rockford (AHL).
2008/09/01 Right knee surgery, sidelined indefinitely.
2008/05/21 Re-signed by the Chicago Blackhawks.
2008/03/14 Missed 1 game (suspension).
2008/03/12 Suspended by the NHL for one game.
2008/01/18 Missed 10 games (sprained right knee).
2007/12/30 Sprained right knee, sidelined indefinitely.
2007/12/05 Missed 3 games (facial injury).
2007/11/28 Facial injury, day-to-day.
2007/08/10 Re-signed as a restricted free agent by the Chicago Blackhawks to a one-year contract.
2007/04/09 Missed the last 15 games of the regular season (right knee injury).
2007/03/09 Right knee injury, remainder of the regular season.
2006/11/14 Recalled from Norfolk (AHL).
2006/11/13 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2006/11/09 Recalled from Norfolk (AHL).
2006/10/01 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2006/04/14 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2006/03/19 Recalled from Norfolk (AHL).
2006/02/13 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2006/01/31 Recalled from Norfolk (AHL).
2005/09/24 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2004/09/16 Assigned to Norfolk (AHL).
2004/03/22 Signed by the Chicago Blackhawks.
You just proved that Wisniewski has had more injuries than markov yet he came back through it 100%...good job proving yourself wrong!

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