HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

What are some interesting players to target?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-02-2012, 12:54 AM
  #151
pachorella
Registered User
 
pachorella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 169
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hook View Post
The only guy I would really break the bank for is Suter. He's a total stud and a legit 1st pairing D would be a game changer for our team and Ds usually stay effective late in their 30s so a long term front-loaded deal would be fine by me. IF Markov comes back healthy dump Kaberle and it leaves :

Suter - Gorges
Markov - Subban
Emelin - Diaz

Tinordi and/or Beaulieu can replace Markov in a yr or 2. Strong reliable top 6 for years to come. Start from there and worry about offense later.

Gaustad as a role player would be nice.


Not much else really enticing in the UFA list.
Not sure mate!!
Also Not sure mate!!

pachorella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 04:04 AM
  #152
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Again, I ask you to compare Carter to the other players on that list. Who does he knock out? Getzlaf maybe? That's about it.
For sure the two kids (they're not there yet, especially RHN who gets sheltered by his coach), Lecavalier (who's not the player he once was and hasn't hit 30 goals since 2007-2008), probably Brad Richards as well (whose value as a power-on-power center is overstated, especially at this stage in his career), possibly Eric Staal as well. But of course, I'm personally more concerned with the ability to outplay top opposition than raw point production.

That said, I must say I'm a little that an elite goal-scorer wouldn't rate as a first-line center.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 05:29 AM
  #153
Mr. Hab
Registered User
 
Mr. Hab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,037
vCash: 500
I'm really hoping we get another 1st Rnd Pick (late in the Rnd, I guess) and add some 2nd Rnd and 3rd Rnd Picks for this year, and come back next season in strong way (also get one or two top 4 UFA dmen...gotta move on without Markov...this whole waiting-for-Markov is ridiculous for our Habs and is depressing and also is ****ing up our defensive core, especially our top 4).

Obviously I will still have some hope we make the playoffs (love our Habs in playoffs), but for the near future...collecting draft picks, prospects could be AMAZING for our Habs

My nightmare...finishing in 9th or even 10th. I'm hoping we make the playoffs and if not...I'll hope for bottom 5-6-7.

QUESTION: bottom 10 teams are entered in the lottery system?? or...?? (thanks in advance).


Lockout next season? that would be depressing, but the last time it happened we won some spots in the Draft Lottery and obtained the
5th overall spot...and drafted Carey Price.


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 02-02-2012 at 06:47 AM.
Mr. Hab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 06:38 AM
  #154
Craig71
Registered User
 
Craig71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,870
vCash: 500
I would like Marian Hossa and Pavel Datsyuk and maybe toss in Evgeny Malkin.

Craig71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 10:02 AM
  #155
firewagon77*
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 82
vCash: 500
Pierre gauthier is a buffoon. Bob Gainey is terrible. Randy Cunneyworth worst coach in canadiens history.

firewagon77* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 10:07 AM
  #156
firewagon77*
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 82
vCash: 500
Gainey and Gauthier together for 8 years 0 stanley cups 0 40-50 goal scorers 0 90-100 point players and are about to finish dead last in the conference worst run franchise in sports history.

firewagon77* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 10:09 AM
  #157
firewagon77*
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 82
vCash: 500
Gauthier brilliant move picking up Kaberle he has taken the pp from 29th to 30th and rene bourque has played 0 good games and you still have your job i guess we know what that says about your owner he's even stupidier than you are.

firewagon77* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 10:18 AM
  #158
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
For sure the two kids (they're not there yet, especially RHN who gets sheltered by his coach), Lecavalier (who's not the player he once was and hasn't hit 30 goals since 2007-2008), probably Brad Richards as well (whose value as a power-on-power center is overstated, especially at this stage in his career), possibly Eric Staal as well. But of course, I'm personally more concerned with the ability to outplay top opposition than raw point production.
Have you seen RNH? That guy is already amazing and sees the ice so well. He's not a power forward type guy but he reminds me of Joe Sakic in how he handles the puck and quarterbacks the play. He's not Joe Sakic of course... but even as a rookie he's really, really good. Seguin isn't quite as good but I think he's probably better now too. I don't think Carter is as good as any of those other players either. Lecavalier doesn't have a 30 goal season only by virtue of injury. Last season he'd have hit that number and while he's certainly not the player he once was he's more productive than Carter was this season before his injury. Staal is flat out better and has played on worse teams. Carter may bring some physicality to the table that a Brad Richards might not but Richards' last two seasons have been higher than a point per game. I don't believe that you'd take Carter over him right now if we were on a stretch run and had to choose between them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That said, I must say I'm a little that an elite goal-scorer wouldn't rate as a first-line center.
30 goals is not really elite. 40 is but not 30. I know you've come up with this nice stat where he's one of a handful of players who's managed to do it for three straight years and that's great and shows consistency, it still doesn't warrant him being considered an elite goal scorer. Stamkos hasn't managed to do it three straight year for example... does that mean that Carter is a better goalscorer than he is? Of course not. There are better goalscoring centers out there. Injury may have kept them from accomplishing the three straight year 30 goal mark or they may have had an off year here or there in that category but that doesnt' mean I wouldn't take say... Malkin over Carter in terms of goal scoring. Tavares and Toews for example just haven't been established long enough to do it but they're both probably better goal scorers at this point too.

As for Carter not being a number one center... I didn't say that. What I said was that he's a below average number one center. Lecavalier and Staal are average to below average centers too. It's comparative man. When you compare number one centers these guys have to compete against the Toews, Kopitars, Datsyuks and Malkins of the world. Even Kopitar probably has at least eight to twelve guys in front of him who are better and maybe more depending on how you rank him. So when you compare number one centers, Carter shows up way down on this list. That doesn't make him a bad player by any stretch, it just means that he's not as good as what most teams have as a number one pivot. Same with Plekanec. Good player, would be great on the 2nd line but he's not a good number one.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-02-2012 at 10:32 AM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 11:01 AM
  #159
Corncob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by halloffame44 View Post
Gauthier brilliant move picking up Kaberle he has taken the pp from 29th to 30th and rene bourque has played 0 good games and you still have your job i guess we know what that says about your owner he's even stupidier than you are.
Being second star in a 7-2 win doesn't count as a good game? Those are some pretty high standards you have there....

Corncob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 11:33 AM
  #160
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Now a consistent 30-goal scorer "isn't really elite"... right.

The mark of an elite player is not hitting X number of goals once (in which case Carter would meet your 40 goals requirement anyway), it's the ability to maintain such a high level of performance over a long period of time.

So if "40 goals" is the threshold for eliteness... over one season it may be an elite player, or it may be a 30-goal guy on a good shooting run. Over three seasons though? Here is the list of guys who have managed forty goals in each season from 2008-2009 to 2010-2011:

-beginning of list-
-end of list-

Furthermore, only three guys have managed to do it twice over that time period: Stamkos, Ovechkin, and Kovalchuk.

I've said this before, but you really need to take a step back and rethink how you do your player evaluations. This isn't the eighties anymore. There were only five guys who hit 40 goals last year, and of the lot, only Stamkos looks likely to repeat.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 11:43 AM
  #161
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Now a consistent 30-goal scorer "isn't really elite"... right.

The mark of an elite player is not hitting X number of goals once (in which case Carter would meet your 40 goals requirement anyway), it's the ability to maintain such a high level of performance over a long period of time.

40 goals in one season may be elite. Over three seasons though? Here is the list of guys who have managed forty goals in each season from 2008-2009 to 2010-2011:

-beginning of list-
-end of list-

Furthermore, only three guys have managed to do it twice over that time period: Stamkos, Ovechkin, and Kovalchuk.

I've said this before, but you really need to take a step back and rethink how you do your player evaluations. This isn't the eighties anymore. There were only five guys who hit 40 goals last year, and of the lot, only Stamkos looks likely to repeat.
Whether 30 goals is elite or not isn't really the point though man...

Look at Brad Richards. The guy hasn't scored 30 goals in his past two seasons but he's got 24 and 28. To go along with that he's got 67 and 49 assists. I'll happily take 5 or 6 less goals if it means that I get way more points out of it. For Pete's sake man he got more assists in 2010 than Carter had in total points. Carter's goal scoring is better but it's not THAT much better to warrant selection over Richards. Give me a 25 goal scorer over a 30 goal man if he's doubling the other guy's assist totals any day.

Stop focusing on little details dude. 30 goals is great but most of these centers are capable of reaching that mark on any given season and they get more points to go along with it. Look at Jason Spezza, he's another guy who blows Carter's points away and probably only misses out on the 3x30 mark because of injury. And he's on terrible teams.

You come up with these stats like him being one of only two or three guys to score 30 goals in three consecutive years. Well, that's cool. But there are other guys consistently scoring around that mark with much better assist totals. Put it together and Carter doesn't match up to most of them. And when I look at this list almost all these guys have hit 30 goals at one time or another. No they haven't done it three years straight coming into this season but most are capable of putting up that total on any given year. You're talking like Carter is one of only a few centers who'd be able to do this and that's not the case. Moreover, Carter was off to a terrible start this year and that streak was likely to end without his injuries anyway.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-02-2012 at 11:57 AM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 11:47 AM
  #162
maci4life
Registered User
 
maci4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Country: Macedonia
Posts: 888
vCash: 500
if mtl are sellers.

gone:
gill
campoli
gionta
AK
DD ( young but too small )
gomez

in are:
Chris stewart
Paul stasny
and picks

this is not a trade the gone, for the in's, but rather who i'd want, and who to get rid of.

if MTL are buyers
gone
the above + subban ( packaged for superstar return)

in
stasny
stewart
Nash

i haven't looked at salaries, so it may not work at all. it's just a wishlist.

maci4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 11:56 AM
  #163
patsbury
Registered User
 
patsbury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal or Drummond
Country: Canada
Posts: 967
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by maci4life View Post
if mtl are sellers.

gone:
gill
campoli
gionta
AK
DD ( young but too small )

gomez
What about no? I do not see the problem with a producing young forward, with Pacioretty and Cole at his side, Desharnais size doesn't prove to be a problem.

Should have mention Moen instead which has a market value since he is UFA at the end of the season. Same with AK, but I'd prefer to keep him. Gionta, there will just no taker, he is injured long-term, what would be the point to acquire such a player. Gomez, maybe at the end of season, but not before.

Gotta be realistic, beside Moen and maybe Gill, no player hold real value

patsbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 12:02 PM
  #164
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You come up with these stats like him being one of only two or three guys to score 30 goals in three consecutive years. Well, that's cool. But there are other guys consistently scoring around that mark with much better assist totals.
That's really the point, you know: there are only a handful of guys who score goals at that level period, let alone with better assist rates.

Me, I'm not too hung up on raw goal or point totals because I believe such stats to be extremely limited in the amount of information they convey. I'm more concerned about ability to handle power-on-power matchups and drive outchancing and outscoring, especially in tough contexts (something Carter is quite good at incidentally). It's clear to me though that you don't agree and view offensive production as an overwhelming #1 criteria. I'm only pursuing this line of discussion because not only do you use such stats apparently to the exclusion of almost all other factors, I'm perplexed by how you view them scaling league-wide.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 12:15 PM
  #165
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's really the point, you know: there are only a handful of guys who score goals at that level period, let alone with better assist rates.
All of the following players were or are on pace for 30+ goals THIS season.

Crosby (very small sample but we all know he would've done it anyway)
Malkin
Stamkos
Toews
Tavares
Backstrom
Marleau
Spezza
Seguin
lecavalier
couture

Those are just the guys on my earlier list. Grabovski from the Leafs for example is on pace to do it as well as is Patrick Elias. Jordan Staal was on pace to do this before he got hurt.

There's also quite a few guys like Backes, Backstrom and RNH who were on pace for something like 28 or 29 goals... they could have easily gotten there and we're not even including wingers here. It's not THAT hard to do man. It's about being able to stay healthy for these guys more than anything.

A 30 goal scorer is good, not elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Me, I'm not too hung up on raw goal or point totals because I believe such stats to be extremely limited in the amount of information they convey. I'm more concerned about ability to handle power-on-power matchups and drive outchancing and outscoring, especially in tough contexts (something Carter is quite good at incidentally). It's clear to me though that you don't agree and view offensive production as an overwhelming #1 criteria. I'm only pursuing this line of discussion because not only do you use such stats apparently to the exclusion of almost all other factors, I'm perplexed by how you view them scaling league-wide.
Raw data and point totals are a better indicator of how well a player will produce offensively than your microstats are. Gomez is proof of this. And while I don't have the microstats stats handy, I think Brett Hull would be proof of this too.

Again, I don't see how you can justify taking Carter over Brad Richards. Nobody would do this. Carter is good but Richards is better.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-02-2012 at 12:20 PM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 12:29 PM
  #166
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by maci4life View Post
if mtl are sellers.

gone:
gill
campoli
gionta
AK
DD ( young but too small )
gomez

in are:
Chris stewart
Paul stasny
and picks

this is not a trade the gone, for the in's, but rather who i'd want, and who to get rid of.

if MTL are buyers
gone
the above + subban ( packaged for superstar return)

in
stasny
stewart
Nash

i haven't looked at salaries, so it may not work at all. it's just a wishlist.
Stastny I was a big fan of his a couple years back, but at 6.6 mil cap hit and his point totals are dropping...79 points in 81 games 2 years ago, 57 in 74 games last year and 31 in 49 this year. The last 2 years he is on a 0.71 PPGM pace, that's not justifying a high end #1 center spor or 6.6 mil cap hit.

Monctonscout is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 12:30 PM
  #167
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Q 30 goal scorer is good, not elite.
Did you read my post? The part about how one 30-goal season doesn't make an elite goal-scorer, it's the consistency thereof?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Raw data and point totals are a better indicator of how well a player will produce offensively than your microstats are.
I have to say I'm pretty amused by the notion that point totals (without even considering context so much as to split by game situation) consitutes any amount of "raw data". Nevermind that the volatility of point totals, especially at the high end, is well documented to begin with...

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 12:41 PM
  #168
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Did you read my post? The part about how one 30-goal season doesn't make an elite goal-scorer, it's the consistency thereof?
Of course. And as I said to you, any one of those guys is a good candidate to hit 30 on any given year. Most of the players I listed have done it already. As for the guys on my list that are on target for this year:

Crosby
Malkin
Stamkos
Toews
Tavares
Backstrom
Marleau
Spezza
Seguin
lecavalier
couture

Would you really be surprised to see any of them doing this again next year? Not really right? None of those guys are flukes. Like I said, health plays more of a factor than anything here because lots of these guys hit the 30 goal mark with some level of regularity. RNH, Staal and others could be added to this list going forward as well. Lots of players can consistently come in around the 30 goal mark if they stay healthy, probably around 15 centers alone who are in the ballpark for this.

Consistently scoring 40 is another matter. 40 is the new 50. Carter did it once and then kind of tapered off. If he'd managed to maintain that pace then it's a different ballgame and he moves up. If anything though, he's slipped and wasn't even on pace for 30 this season. He plays physical but doesn't really get that many assists so I'm sorry, I don't see how he stacks up against those other players. Guys who could hit those totals with any kind of consistency are more rare: Marleau, Stamkos, Crosby, Malkin maybe Toews or Tavares going forward... that's elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I have to say I'm pretty amused by the notion that point totals (without even considering context so much as to split by game situation) consitutes any amount of "raw data". Nevermind that the volatility of point totals, especially at the high end, is well documented to begin with...
Sure you have to consider the context. If Jarri Kurri doesn't play with Gretzky he'll never score the points he does. But the bottom line is that if he is playing with Gretzky and he is scoring 60 goals a year, then I don't care what his CORSI is. His totals indicate to me that he's going to probably do the same thing next season if he stays healthy.

As for being amused, well I'm glad I could pay you back for this. You've certainly given me much amusement with your defense of Gomez.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-02-2012 at 12:48 PM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 05:23 PM
  #169
maci4life
Registered User
 
maci4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Country: Macedonia
Posts: 888
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by patsbury View Post
What about no? I do not see the problem with a producing young forward, with Pacioretty and Cole at his side, Desharnais size doesn't prove to be a problem.

Should have mention Moen instead which has a market value since he is UFA at the end of the season. Same with AK, but I'd prefer to keep him. Gionta, there will just no taker, he is injured long-term, what would be the point to acquire such a player. Gomez, maybe at the end of season, but not before.

Gotta be realistic, beside Moen and maybe Gill, no player hold real value

shoot, i forgot about Moen, you're right.

i like DD, but i'm thinking about getting bigger. I have a feeling that it's cole and pacs artificially raising the value of DD. so trade him if he has value.

maci4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 05:33 PM
  #170
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by maci4life View Post
i like DD, but i'm thinking about getting bigger. I have a feeling that it's cole and pacs artificially raising the value of DD. so trade him if he has value.
Thing is, even if Cole and MaxPac are raising DD's value, DD is a fantastic player at his price point. If some GM goes nuts, thinks DD is a first-line center, and offers you assets commensurate for that, sure, trade him, but otherwise, DD could not be easily replaced for 800k.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:26 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.