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If Schenn is traded

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Old
02-03-2012, 12:27 PM
  #101
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FYI, Gardiner is 8 months younger than Schenn, not 14.

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02-03-2012, 12:35 PM
  #102
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Corrected, thank you.

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02-03-2012, 01:19 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by InTermsOf View Post
Can someone tell me why we're even talking about Schenn's draft ranking?

That was nearly 4 years ago. He has played almost 300 NHL games since then. He isn't a prospect anymore, his former draft rankings have absolutely zero impact on how he should be presently evaluated and I'm sure all 30 GM's in the NHL have that attitude towards him. Are we suddenly going to start valuing Komi more because he's a former 7th overall pick?


And in regards to the age-based arguments (basically arguments like: he's young, therefore he will be good), enjoy some copypasta from the other Schenn threads:
Others are comparing him to players who were drafted later but can skate faster..

That whole "hind-sight-20-20" thing.

My 'Draft' argument is that GM's look for a stay-at-home D man, no matter what his skating ability is. Players like this are sought after. Schenn was valued then as a top 5 prospect, and he is still held in the same regard.

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02-03-2012, 01:31 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Hawaiinleaf View Post
Schenn needs to stay..he is our future Captain

I would rather trade first round pick and a foward for the power forward we need than trade Schenn
Future captain? Please tell me you a joking... The guy has this defeated look on face most of the time and to be quite honest his biggest asset is how he hits. He does not fight, he is marginal in sticking up for fellow teammates. He doesn't score and he is very mediocre at passing the puck. He is Dion without the scoring ability, honestly, compared to the other 3 D in the same draft year compared, he is a flop.

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02-03-2012, 02:25 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
Others are comparing him to players who were drafted later but can skate faster..

That whole "hind-sight-20-20" thing.

My 'Draft' argument is that GM's look for a stay-at-home D man, no matter what his skating ability is. Players like this are sought after. Schenn was valued then as a top 5 prospect, and he is still held in the same regard.
I don't think they were looking for a stay at home defenseman exactly, they were looking for a reliable cornerstone piece with low bust possibility who could mature into a two way defenseman the way a Brent Seabrook is for Chicago, with good upside to be more.

Schenn's draft ranking no longer matters. Safe to say he's never going to be one of the five best players out of 2008, because his skills are limiting him from being a true impact player, but for the Leafs sake you do need him to develop his game in all aspects, and also actually be the solid defensive player he is advertised and hyped as in order for him to be considered an irreplaceable piece. He's not there yet.

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02-03-2012, 02:51 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I don't think they were looking for a stay at home defenseman exactly, they were looking for a reliable cornerstone piece with low bust possibility who could mature into a two way defenseman the way a Brent Seabrook is for Chicago, with good upside to be more.

Schenn's draft ranking no longer matters. Safe to say he's never going to be one of the five best players out of 2008, because his skills are limiting him from being a true impact player, but for the Leafs sake you do need him to develop his game in all aspects, and also actually be the solid defensive player he is advertised and hyped as in order for him to be considered an irreplaceable piece. He's not there yet.
I really don't think he was scouted for any two-way ability. That's still not the case.

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02-03-2012, 02:54 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
I really don't think he was scouted for any two-way ability. That's still not the case.
I'll tell you the case, Schenn is the Bozak of D-men. Loved with flares of brilliance from time to time coupled with inconsistent overall play marred by turnovers, but he can hit.

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02-03-2012, 03:14 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
I really don't think he was scouted for any two-way ability. That's still not the case.
http://my.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?us...1&post_id=5512

"- The Leafs targeted their man, and traded up to get him, in a fantasically bold move.
- Schenn is a large-bodied, seek-and-destroy shutdown defender in the mold of Scott Stevens
- Mckeen's Prospect Rankings editor called Schenn the "best defensive defenseman to come from the draft in maybe two decade"
- Schenn also possesses very underrated offensive abilities, as most people are inclined to think of him simply as a stay-at-home defender
- One scout noted "Schenn moves the puck with the kind of robotic composure most junior forwards won't see until they reach the pro ranks"
- He's drawn comparisons to Nashville's Shea Weber offensively"

http://nhldraftnotes.blogspot.com/20...ke-schenn.html

"But he's so good with the puck when he touches it - and I think he's capable of more, as he seems to intentionally play a conservative game. But what's most intriguing is the handful of dazzling rushes from him that leave you wondering, why doesn't he do THAT more often?"

http://my.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?po...&user_id=32601

Here's someone comparing Schenn to Shea Weber.

Obviously ill informed and hilarious looking back, but this is what people said, and why wouldn't they say so with a top five pick. His development has gone a bit limp though.


Last edited by Stephen: 02-03-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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Old
02-03-2012, 03:19 PM
  #109
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Schenn's first-pass is excellent. That's what those scouting reports are referring to, and in that sense, they're correct.

Also, he was never expected to be a "cornerstone". Fletcher said himself he envisioned a rock solid #2.

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02-03-2012, 03:30 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Newfie John View Post
Schenn's first-pass is excellent. That's what those scouting reports are referring to, and in that sense, they're correct.

Also, he was never expected to be a "cornerstone". Fletcher said himself he envisioned a rock solid #2.
Read it again, they're talking about his shot from the point, his abilities to be a second PP unit guy, his unexpected rushes with the puck and drawing comparisons to a Shea Weber. We've seen glimpses of that, but to say we didn't expect big things out of a top 5 pick we traded up for is a joke.

Why would anyone trade up draft a defensive defenseman not expected to be a cornerstone piece with a top five pick in a deep draft? It's like purposely drafting a third line centerman with good faceoff abilities in the same position. Everyone is hoping for something better. So if you're somehow trying to suggest this version of Schenn is exactly what we wanted back in 2008, that's a special level of delusion.

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02-03-2012, 03:34 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Read it again, they're talking about his shot from the point, his abilities to be a second PP unit guy, his unexpected rushes with the puck and drawing comparisons to a Shea Weber. We've seen glimpses of that, but to say we didn't expect big things out of a top 5 pick we traded up for is a joke.

Why would anyone trade up draft a defensive defenseman not expected to be a cornerstone piece with a top five pick in a deep draft? It's like purposely drafting a third line centerman with good faceoff abilities in the same position. Everyone is hoping for something better.
You're not really quoting high end talent evaluators, all of those guys probably would have taken Filatov before Schenn like you would have.

It's called a "safe" pick. Everyone knew Schenn's ceiling wasn't as high as Bogosian, Doughty, etc. They envisioned more than he is now, but he's still young. Once he gets consistent with his games (i.e more games like the last one vs Pittsburgh) then he'll be a rock solid #2 who can move the puck.

When most think of a stay-at-home defencemen, they think of Mike Komisarek-like puck moving abilities. Schenn is much better than that, he's already better than Francois "rocket-pass" Beauchemin in that regard. When Schenn hits his prime (probably late 20s), his draft status will be warranted.

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02-03-2012, 03:43 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Newfie John View Post
You're not really quoting high end talent evaluators, all of those guys probably would have taken Filatov before Schenn like you would have.

It's called a "safe" pick. Everyone knew Schenn's ceiling wasn't as high as Bogosian, Doughty, etc. They envisioned more than he is now, but he's still young. Once he gets consistent with his games (i.e more games like the last one vs Pittsburgh) then he'll be a rock solid #2 who can move the puck.

When most think of a stay-at-home defencemen, they think of Mike Komisarek-like puck moving abilities. Schenn is much better than that, he's already better than Francois "rocket-pass" Beauchemin in that regard. When Schenn hits his prime (probably late 20s), his draft status will be warranted.
Schenn's puck moving abilities aren't good though. His signature move seems to be handling the puck like a grenade, and then dishing it off to an unsuspecting teammate. He has shown that he can lug the puck at times when he's on, but by no means does he seem comfortable in that role.

And I don't buy the argument that when he's in his late 20s he'll be worth the pick. The assumption that we have to wait 8-10 years for him to magically develop into this great rock solid defenseman, that's not the indication of a good pick when teams like Ottawa, New York and Washington have enjoyed productive careers out of Karlsson, Del Zotto and Carlson, for example.

But again, this isn't about the draft anymore. It's about the idea that Schenn is unmovable because of all the great things he brings to the table right now and how irreplaceable he is. We might miss his potential, but he doesn't really bring that much on a game to game basis that he should be unmoveable.

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02-03-2012, 04:23 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
http://my.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?us...1&post_id=5512

"- The Leafs targeted their man, and traded up to get him, in a fantasically bold move.
- Schenn is a large-bodied, seek-and-destroy shutdown defender in the mold of Scott Stevens
- Mckeen's Prospect Rankings editor called Schenn the "best defensive defenseman to come from the draft in maybe two decade"
- Schenn also possesses very underrated offensive abilities, as most people are inclined to think of him simply as a stay-at-home defender
- One scout noted "Schenn moves the puck with the kind of robotic composure most junior forwards won't see until they reach the pro ranks"
- He's drawn comparisons to Nashville's Shea Weber offensively"

http://nhldraftnotes.blogspot.com/20...ke-schenn.html

"But he's so good with the puck when he touches it - and I think he's capable of more, as he seems to intentionally play a conservative game. But what's most intriguing is the handful of dazzling rushes from him that leave you wondering, why doesn't he do THAT more often?"

http://my.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?po...&user_id=32601

Here's someone comparing Schenn to Shea Weber.

Obviously ill informed and hilarious looking back, but this is what people said, and why wouldn't they say so with a top five pick. His development has gone a bit limp though.
Quoting HockeyBuzz articles as legitimate case-building points is not the best method of persuasion.

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02-03-2012, 04:25 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Schenn's puck moving abilities aren't good though. His signature move seems to be handling the puck like a grenade, and then dishing it off to an unsuspecting teammate. He has shown that he can lug the puck at times when he's on, but by no means does he seem comfortable in that role.

And I don't buy the argument that when he's in his late 20s he'll be worth the pick. The assumption that we have to wait 8-10 years for him to magically develop into this great rock solid defenseman, that's not the indication of a good pick when teams like Ottawa, New York and Washington have enjoyed productive careers out of Karlsson, Del Zotto and Carlson, for example.

But again, this isn't about the draft anymore. It's about the idea that Schenn is unmovable because of all the great things he brings to the table right now and how irreplaceable he is. We might miss his potential, but he doesn't really bring that much on a game to game basis that he should be unmoveable.
Schenn was drafted to be a potential shut down defensive men, with some offense ability. Those players bolded had way more offensive upside then Schenn (according to their draft scouting reports anyway). So to compare Schenn to those players based on points scored and production is unfair IMO.

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02-03-2012, 04:30 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Schenn's puck moving abilities aren't good though. His signature move seems to be handling the puck like a grenade, and then dishing it off to an unsuspecting teammate. He has shown that he can lug the puck at times when he's on, but by no means does he seem comfortable in that role.

And I don't buy the argument that when he's in his late 20s he'll be worth the pick. The assumption that we have to wait 8-10 years for him to magically develop into this great rock solid defenseman, that's not the indication of a good pick when teams like Ottawa, New York and Washington have enjoyed productive careers out of Karlsson, Del Zotto and Carlson, for example.

But again, this isn't about the draft anymore. It's about the idea that Schenn is unmovable because of all the great things he brings to the table right now and how irreplaceable he is. We might miss his potential, but he doesn't really bring that much on a game to game basis that he should be unmoveable.
Not yet, at least.

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02-03-2012, 04:35 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
Quoting HockeyBuzz articles as legitimate case-building points is not the best method of persuasion.
Doesn't really matter where it's from, just once upon a time, people expected certain things from Schenn, i.e. reasonable things to hope for from a top five pick. Unless you mean to say a defenseman picked in the top five, who makes $3 million plus a season should be 7th in ice time on his team.

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02-03-2012, 04:38 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Kessely Snipes View Post
Schenn was drafted to be a potential shut down defensive men, with some offense ability. Those players bolded had way more offensive upside then Schenn (according to their draft scouting reports anyway). So to compare Schenn to those players based on points scored and production is unfair IMO.
Not production, just impact.

It doesn't matter where any of them was drafted any more anyway, but if the Caps get a guy who can play 23 minutes a might for 8 years in Carlson before Schenn fully matures into a reliable defenseman, that's still a bad investment of a pick.

Schenn might turn out, he might not. But if a trade comes along where the team can get better, you make the trade.

Schenn is only unmovable from the perspective of the popularity contest. That's all.

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02-03-2012, 04:41 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Doesn't really matter where it's from, just once upon a time, people expected certain things from Schenn, i.e. reasonable things to hope for from a top five pick. Unless you mean to say a defenseman picked in the top five, who makes $3 million plus a season should be 7th in ice time on his team.
Well than people expected different, incorrect things, likely based off of "sources" who are known to fabricate and over-hype ideas all the time.

I expected, and received, a future shut-down defenseman who shouldn't (although, he has... a lot) get burned offensively. I'll 'waste' a 5th overall pick and $3million+ per year on a guy like that.

But to each their own, I suppose.

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02-03-2012, 04:43 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Not production, just impact.

It doesn't matter where any of them was drafted any more anyway, but if the Caps get a guy who can play 23 minutes a might for 8 years in Carlson before Schenn fully matures into a reliable defenseman, that's still a bad investment of a pick.

Schenn might turn out, he might not. But if a trade comes along where the team can get better, you make the trade.

Schenn is only unmovable from the perspective of the popularity contest. That's all.
It's not at all a bad investment. He was what the Leafs, at the time, needed.

And yes, no one is unmovable. If the right deal comes along that will significantly impact the Leafs in a positive way, you do it. (Just not for JVR...please..)

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02-03-2012, 04:45 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
Well than people expected different, incorrect things, likely based off of "sources" who are known to fabricate and over-hype ideas all the time.

I expected, and received, a future shut-down defenseman who shouldn't (although, he has... a lot) get burned offensively. I'll 'waste' a 5th overall pick and $3million+ per year on a guy like that.

But to each their own, I suppose.
So you're saying we haven't received anything yet?

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02-03-2012, 04:48 PM
  #121
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From what I recall this season Schenn played best with JML, so hopefully now that he is back it will improve Schenns game.

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02-03-2012, 04:51 PM
  #122
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So you're saying we haven't received anything yet?
Twisting words is fun

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