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Dreger: desperate Brian Burke to "take a run" at James Van Riemsdyk

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Old
02-04-2012, 11:43 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
Thats not what Holmgren does, at least he didn't in the past. His aim has always been getting six defensemen who can play second pairing minutes. If Carle leaves and if Pronger is done, Holmgren will try to replace both with similar players, he won't try to do the same with less.
The team certainly wasn't built like that in 2010. Holmgren reacted to the lack of 3rd pairing depth by acquiring Meszaros and O'Donnell, and he did not give up any assets of JVR's calibre to do it. The only time he gave up major trade assets for D was to acquire Pronger.

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02-04-2012, 11:45 AM
  #52
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Burke Desperate?

Would trade Shelley + JVR for Schenn and Kulemin

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02-04-2012, 11:47 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Recently it seems like the best thing that can be said for Schenn is "he hits a lot."

That's unimpressive. I wonder how often he puts himself out of position by going for hits?

Edit: Schenn is clearly the new Kadri: a player Toronto fans insists is super-amazing in trade proposals...yet they're eager to trade him away ASAP.

Fans tend to be extremely impatient with prospect defenseman. Even if I don't think Schenn is adequate payment for JVR, I think you have to admit that his NHL production is still impressive for a player of his age.

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02-04-2012, 11:51 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
The team certainly wasn't built like that in 2010. Holmgren reacted to the lack of 3rd pairing depth by acquiring Meszaros and O'Donnell, and he did not give up any assets of JVR's calibre to do it. The only time he gave up major trade assets for D was to acquire Pronger.
When Holmgren became GM the defense was Pitkänen, Hatcher, Rathje, Jones, Meyer and Gauthier ... since then he continually tries to improve that.

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02-04-2012, 11:53 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Timonen View Post
I don't want to trade JVR but if it was Schenn and Kadri, Franson, or Colborne I would do it.
I agree. I to really would like to see JVR finally reach his potential here with us. But I really like Schenn's game and he would be just what we need on the backend and if we could get one of the three you have listed, to me it would be just some icing on the cake.

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02-04-2012, 11:54 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
When Holmgren became GM the defense was Pitkänen, Hatcher, Rathje, Jones, Meyer and Gauthier ... since then he continually tries to improve that.


I guess it is worth keeping in mind how far we've come when whining about our defensive corps...

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02-04-2012, 11:58 AM
  #57
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Burke's plan is to make the entire team, coaching staff and executives American. Why is he desperate to make a move, and for a player that's got a concussion or worse who has underperformed all season? Like others have said, hopefully he'll overpay.
Burke always had a pretty good eye for talent. Plus when he wants something he is not shy about letting it be known. Hopefully where there is smoke there is fire and he does overpay.

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02-04-2012, 12:00 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
When Holmgren became GM the defense was Pitkänen, Hatcher, Rathje, Jones, Meyer and Gauthier ... since then he continually tries to improve that.
If he acquires an adequate replacement for Pronger, he has significantly improved the d-corps. You have to put Holmgren's task in the context of unexpectedly losing Pronger forever (if that is the case).

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02-04-2012, 12:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Fans tend to be extremely impatient with prospect defenseman. Even if I don't think Schenn is adequate payment for JVR, I think you have to admit that his NHL production is still impressive for a player of his age.
I simply don't trust Toronto's ability to scout, draft, and develop players. How many fairly high first rounders have they used in the last two decades or so that have been nothing special?

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02-04-2012, 12:03 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I simply don't trust Toronto's ability to scout, draft, and develop players. How many fairly high first rounders have they used in the last two decades or so that have been nothing special?
How many NHL defenseman have logged 6,000 serviceable career minutes before they turn 23? That is solid evidence of talent that is being developed.

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02-04-2012, 12:07 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
How many NHL defenseman have logged 6,000 serviceable career minutes before they turn 23? That is solid evidence of talent that is being developed.
Looking at him this season, he's been pretty bad overall. Looking on the Toronto forums, many of them agree. Granted, he has many more seasons ahead of him. MDZ was bad last season, and now he's pretty good.

Do you think Schenn would be logging all those minutes on a better team? The relative weakness of Toronto has probably done a lot to inflate those numbers. I just look at Toronto's track record of first round draft picks, and I'm not filled with hope and sunshine. I'd rather get draft picks back from them so Holmgren can use them himself.

Like I said, I just don't trust Toronto. Holmgren has a good eye for talent, though. If he sees something special, so be it.

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02-04-2012, 12:10 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post


I guess it is worth keeping in mind how far we've come when whining about our defensive corps...
Whining is the key word. Homer continues to get bashed on this site. I consider him one of the top five or six GM's in the league. To look at this team that he assembled even with the loss of his big acquisition in Pronger amazes me.

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02-04-2012, 12:15 PM
  #63
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I do not see it that way. I really do not.

Schenn is not #1, he is not #2 he is not #3 right now. Daneyko, Foote, Beauchemin were not the main reasons why Col, Dev, Ducks were good on D and won the cup. Daneyko, Foote, Beauchemin were part of it something bigger: Blakes, Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, Ray Bourque etc.

So who is in the right mind will trade #1 d-men to the Flyers? I do not know. Maybe someone will, maybe not. Just going to have to wait and see who is available.

I know adding Schenn and trading JVR will not make us cup contenders next year.

You need to take into account the Ron Wilson factor with regards to Schenn's "poor" play this year. Last season, Schenn was on his way to becoming premier shut down defenseman. He was hitting everything in sight, he never took himself out of a play defensively and was leading the team in ice time.

He signs his new deal, comes into camp in fantastic shape, and Wilson craps all over him because the newest toy of the week, Jake Gardiner, came in and played with some flair. On top of it, the Leafs needed to find a way to get Mike Komisarek into the lineup because of the ridiculous salary he was given. So, Wilson did a Wilson and decided to throw Schenn under a bus for every miniscule mistake he made, yet he praised Komisarek and Gardiner for stepping up their games, yet making the same mistakes that Schenn was making.

Luke Schenn is in a bad situation in Toronto. He's playing for a coach who doesn't like him and is doing everything in his power to get him shipped out of town. If it's JVR for Schenn and Colborne (which seems to be getting some steam again from the people I talk to), then the Flyers make out like bandits. Schenn needs a change of scenery and Philadelphia would certainly be an ideal place for him. When you consider that Carle, Meszaros, and Coburn were given up on by the organizations they used to play for and they've rebounded here, there's no reason to believe Schenn won't get his game back on track here. And Colborne is ready to play full time in the NHL and he can play the wing.

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02-04-2012, 12:50 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Looking at him this season, he's been pretty bad overall. Looking on the Toronto forums, many of them agree. Granted, he has many more seasons ahead of him. MDZ was bad last season, and now he's pretty good.

Do you think Schenn would be logging all those minutes on a better team? The relative weakness of Toronto has probably done a lot to inflate those numbers. I just look at Toronto's track record of first round draft picks, and I'm not filled with hope and sunshine. I'd rather get draft picks back from them so Holmgren can use them himself.

Like I said, I just don't trust Toronto. Holmgren has a good eye for talent, though. If he sees something special, so be it.
Schenn was rated as a top 5 skater in his draft year, was drafted in the top 5 and is developing well for a player his age. Toronto's draft record is irrelevant.

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02-04-2012, 12:52 PM
  #65
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He could physically take a run at him and if today's refs are in charge he'd get away with it.

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02-04-2012, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Schenn was rated as a top 5 skater in his draft year, was drafted in the top 5 and is developing well for a player his age. Toronto's draft record is irrelevant.
It is certainly relevant. They have an established record of first round disappointments. Clearly, that organization is doing something wrong.

Again though, I'm not GM. As an outside fan, I look at Toronto and Schenn and I'm wary. I defer to Holmgren on this one. If he trades JVR for Schenn though, I'm hoping he gets some picks back to be sure.

If it happens, I'll wait and see how things turn out. If they turn out great, then that just adds to Toronto's hilarious history with first rounders. If it goes badly, I wouldn't be shocked at all.

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02-04-2012, 01:02 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It is certainly relevant. They have an established record of first round disappointments. Clearly, that organization is doing something wrong.

Again though, I'm not GM. As an outside fan, I look at Toronto and Schenn and I'm wary. I defer to Holmgren on this one. If he trades JVR for Schenn though, I'm hoping he gets some picks back to be sure.

If it happens, I'll wait and see how things turn out. If they turn out great, then that just adds to Toronto's hilarious history with first rounders. If it goes badly, I wouldn't be shocked at all.
They didn't reach for him, it was Stamkos at #1 and after him the four defensemen in some order: Doughty, Pietrangelo, Bogosian and Schenn. That was the consensus before the Draft, Schenn isn't Hickey.

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02-06-2012, 02:48 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Luke Schenn is in a bad situation in Toronto. He's playing for a coach who doesn't like him and is doing everything in his power to get him shipped out of town. If it's JVR for Schenn and Colborne (which seems to be getting some steam again from the people I talk to), then the Flyers make out like bandits. Schenn needs a change of scenery and Philadelphia would certainly be an ideal place for him. When you consider that Carle, Meszaros, and Coburn were given up on by the organizations they used to play for and they've rebounded here, there's no reason to believe Schenn won't get his game back on track here. And Colborne is ready to play full time in the NHL and he can play the wing.
I don't think you'll see Burke get hosed that much. He's not as desperate as when he made the Kessel trade.

Posters who want Schenn + something big for JVR are asking for a huge overpayment. Especially including Kulemin... Kuley and JVR are both experiencing a step back in their production from a year ago, granted JVR is a few years younger, but to call for Schenn + Kulemin would definitely be a huge overpayment.

I think Schenn + a pick (2nd round at the very most) for JVR would be a fair deal for both sides.

Does Philly need a more offensive D than Schenn though? For example, who has the most value to Flyers fans out of: Schenn, Gunnarsson or Franson?

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02-06-2012, 02:51 PM
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I don't think you'll see Burke get hosed that much. He's not as desperate as when he made the Kessel trade.

Posters who want Schenn + something big for JVR are asking for a huge overpayment. Especially including Kulemin... Kuley and JVR are both experiencing a step back in their production from a year ago, granted JVR is a few years younger, but to call for Schenn + Kulemin would definitely be a huge overpayment.

I think Schenn + a pick (2nd round at the very most) for JVR would be a fair deal for both sides.

Does Philly need a more offensive D than Schenn though? For example, who has the most value to Flyers fans out of: Schenn, Gunnarsson or Franson?
Personally, I'd want Schenn of the three. I like his grit and physicality. Gunnarsson would be my second choice. He's slick. But I'd like a thumper if possible.

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02-06-2012, 03:46 PM
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I don't think you'll see Burke get hosed that much. He's not as desperate as when he made the Kessel trade.

Posters who want Schenn + something big for JVR are asking for a huge overpayment. Especially including Kulemin... Kuley and JVR are both experiencing a step back in their production from a year ago, granted JVR is a few years younger, but to call for Schenn + Kulemin would definitely be a huge overpayment.

I think Schenn + a pick (2nd round at the very most) for JVR would be a fair deal for both sides.

Does Philly need a more offensive D than Schenn though? For example, who has the most value to Flyers fans out of: Schenn, Gunnarsson or Franson?
Honestly, we need the physicality and grit right now. We have enough offense from the d-men in Carle, Timonen and Mez.

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02-06-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It is certainly relevant. They have an established record of first round disappointments. Clearly, that organization is doing something wrong.

Again though, I'm not GM. As an outside fan, I look at Toronto and Schenn and I'm wary. I defer to Holmgren on this one. If he trades JVR for Schenn though, I'm hoping he gets some picks back to be sure.

If it happens, I'll wait and see how things turn out. If they turn out great, then that just adds to Toronto's hilarious history with first rounders. If it goes badly, I wouldn't be shocked at all.
Saying Toronto has a bad draft record based on previous first rounders is like a Leaf fan saying the Flyers have a history of acquiring bad defenseman based on Rathje and Hatcher. Just as those players were acquired under the last Flyer regime, the draftpicks and poor development you are referring to were not under Burke.

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02-06-2012, 04:05 PM
  #72
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It's more like saying the Flyers aren't good at finding goaltenders.

Also, it should be noted that the Flyers actually aren't very good at drafting defensemen. In the same way that I'm skeptical of players drafted by Toronto, I'd automatically be skeptical of any defenseman drafted by Philly. Until either organization proves they can get it right, that's just my stance. Maybe Schenn will be awesome. Who knows. I'm just wary.

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02-06-2012, 04:23 PM
  #73
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It's more like saying the Flyers aren't good at finding goaltenders.

Also, it should be noted that the Flyers actually aren't very good at drafting defensemen.
I'm wary, too. If it's JvR for Schenn, straight up, I don't like it. JvR has the higher ceiling. But say there's other assets coming with it, or more moving parts from both sides....I'm not eager to trade JvR, either, but we all know that's the rumor.

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02-06-2012, 04:38 PM
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If you are going by numerous scouting reports JVR's ceiling is not higher then Schenn's. They are basically the same. Schenn's ceiling is usually listed as "Big minutes physical shut down defenseman." Being a shutdown defenseman is basically as high as the ceiling goes.

Plus many people need to keep in mind that Schenn is a defenseman and they need to hold him to the standards of defenseman development. Look at all the elite defenders today and how many of them were playing at that level at 22? (How good was Chara at 22? Or Shea Weber? Chris Pronger? Duncan Keith?) It is much longer learning curve. By these standards JVR's set back would be more alarming then Schenn's since this is very common for young defenders. Look at what happened to Doughty and Myers.

I don't like the idea of giving up JVR but if you want talent you have to get it and JVR for Schenn is a fair deal as far as talent goes.

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02-06-2012, 04:46 PM
  #75
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I think that a 30-35 goal power forward is a higher ceiling than big shut down defenseman....just an opinion. I think that JvR is capable of being a more rare player than Schenn could be... not to knock Schenn at all. I'd be very happy to have him as a Flyer.

I don't think a straight up trade would be awful, either. Just rate JvR a bit higher than Schenn.

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