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Josh Gorges Comparables

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Old
02-05-2012, 10:51 AM
  #26
Evil Ted
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Hes like Craig Rivet, only younger.

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02-05-2012, 11:05 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Evil Ted View Post
Hes like Craig Rivet, only younger.
And better. By a mile.

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02-05-2012, 11:40 AM
  #28
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LOL, ridiculous thread. Lets hope some ppl are just bored, explaining their need to cause a ***** storm.

I'm happy with his role in the team and salary. I have yet to hear a hockey expert denigrate this deal, mostly accolades I have heard (I'm sure a few disappointed GMs in the process). And lets be honest, the arguments brought up by the OP are not the words of an expert, pretty clear to see.

Question for everybody. What do you prefer, our current captain at $5 mil and everything he brings (his prime is basically passed) to the team or $3.9 mil for Gorges (who is entering his prime)

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Old
02-05-2012, 11:42 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Routs View Post
And better. By a mile.
Maybe not better offensively but overall much better. And its not even close. It is so rare to see a deal where we were the actual team fleecing the other team. This was an all-around great deal! To think that Gorges was a throw-in.

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Old
02-05-2012, 11:45 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
yeah so what? he is a LITTLE overpaid and he could have gotten 4 mil on the market anyways and that's why gauthier had to pay what he did. you seriously need to get over it
People need to understand the market. UFAs get more money because you can sign them for free. Not only that, but the player going to the highest bidder means that the price for a guy is set by the highest amount he COULD get to a particular team that has a need for him. Almost all of the producers' surplus goes to the player in such a case.

RFA-age players allow for a surplus in value to the team. In other words, the player is paid BELOW free-market value. He is NOT allowed to go to the highest bidder, and anyone who bids for him MUST give compensation to the team that had him before. Thus RFA-age players can be obtained by trading another player or players, or prospects or picks, but in all cases these are ASSETS given up. The team still "overpays" to get that player, but now it comes not all from salary but also partly from players given back or other assets given back.

Don't expect to see bargain UFA contracts very often, at least not for those who sign early. Sometimes you can get a bargain very late in the summer for a guy who slipped through July but you cannot COUNT on building a team that way. If you feel you have a need for an Eric Cole type player, you bite the bullet and pay on July 1st or so, because the chances of him still being around on August 15th and available for $750k for one year are pretty slim.

Is $4.5M for 4 years steep for Cole? Yes, in one sense, meaning compared to what he was making a few years ago as an RFA. However, to get him then, it might have cost Andrei Markov or a top pick or prospect that could turn out to be a Pacioretty, Price or Subban.

So, how do teams afford UFAs if they cost more than RFAs? Simple, the cap allows for a mix of both. No need to stay away from ALL UFA contracts and it is not efficient to ONLY go after UFAs.

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:07 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
having o'byrne and seidenberg on the same list proves he's not being serious
O'byrne got 21 million $ less, Seidenberg 11 million $ less. You're gonna argue that Gorges is worth that much more then those guys?

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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Gorges' cap hit is right in line with comparables. Since you highlited total salary instead, I assume your real problem is the cap hit combined with the length of the contract? IMO, a term that takes a defenceman from age 27 through 33 is very team friendly. If your problem is the total size of the contract, maybe your real problem is the fact that Gorges was a relatively young UFA. So, no problem at all.
Other then the Shultz contract, Gorges got at least 10 million$ more then any other comparable to him. Yes I took the total contract into consideration, but Gorges has a higher cap hit then almost everyone on that list.

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Originally Posted by AHMB Prez View Post
bwahahaha this place has officially lost it. We are now at the point of blaming Gorges for the downfall. If you guys are so blatantly blind you cant see that injuries and bad luck have been our downfall this year than you know SQUAT about hockey.

Last night was a great example, look at the goal scored form the blueline....unreal how that goes in, and its been happenng ALL season.

Two penalty shots in one game ? Are you ****in kidding me. I have been watching the Habs since the early 70's and i barely remember and penalty shots for the Habs, none the less two in one game.

Josh ****in Gorges the real problem to the Habs woes !
Yes you have been watching and so have I. But I also have been playing the game for about 25 years now, I've been head and assistant coach, and I've captained my team on many occasions. Saying I know nothing about hockey amuses me, because I've given much more to the game then you can ever imagine.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Can Gorges clear the front of the net?
Can he play on the PP?
Can he chip in offensively 5 on 5?
Does he have a decent shot?
Is he an imposing presence on the back end?
Can he make a good 1st pass?
Can he bring the puck up the ice consistently?
Is he physical?
Has he produced more than 25 points in his career?

The answer to all these questions is no.

He is a decent Dman, but please don't try to tell me he's a top line dman and his $4M contract is a steal.

He has 29 points in 170 games. For $4M, if he can't clear the crease, hit, or be a physical presence I need a bit more production than that from my 1st pairing dman.
I'm guessing you're one of the only poster around here who has actually played the game.

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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
You pretty much made a list of guys with a lot of blocked shots that are paid less then Gorges and tried to paint it as an objective list of comparable players.

This was done regardless of whether or not players were RFAs when they signed their deal (Girardi, Carle, Klein, O'B, etc.), or took a hometown discount (Phillips), or were borderline NHLers at the time of signing their contract (Harrison).

Gorges was signed to be a long term solid defensive dman with the Habs. His comparable players are guys that were signed to fulfill a similar role on their team:

Gleason - 4 year 3.5M/year (extended this year)
Jackman - 4 year 3.65M/year (with one RFA year bumping cap hit down a bit)
Orpik - 6 year 3.75/year (signed in 08-09)
Brewer - 4 year 3.85M/year
Gorges - 6 year 3.9M/year
Z. Michalek - 5 year 4M/year
Regehr - 5 year 4.02M/year
Vochenkov - 6 year 4.25M/year

These are examples of long term contracts handed out to good defensive defensemen over the last few years. They are Gorges comparable contracts.
i'll take pretty much everyone in that list over Gorges

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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
If you can't see, understand, appreciate what Gorges bring to the team, you don't understand hockey.
See my reply above. You try and call out my knowledge of the game but I'm willing to bet that other then your Xbox, you have no experience actually playing the game.

I want to add, having a Gorges type of player is important to have a winning team. But at the value 99% of players similar to him are getting, we vastly overpaid, and it's not even close.

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:19 PM
  #32
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We get it, you hate Gorges, now remove him from the team and see how worse we do.

To start. you certainly won't have a #1 PK.

Can't believe someone's crying over his salary when he's the only one who gives 100% every ****ing night.

If all players had as much heart as he does, perhaps our team wouldn't be where they are at the moment. Instead, they are being paid MORE then Gorges, and don't bring what THEY are suppose to bring on the table (except Cole).

Habs gave this contract to Gorges because he's a shutdown D, great on the PK and shot blocker. They don't expect him to be a PP quarterback, that belongs to other players. If he's doing exactly what they paid him for (you need those type of players), why ***** about it?

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:19 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post

See my reply above. You try and call out my knowledge of the game but I'm willing to bet that other then your Xbox, you have no experience actually playing the game.

I want to add, having a Gorges type of player is important to have a winning team. But at the value 99% of players similar to him are getting, we vastly overpaid, and it's not even close.
Actually, I think my Xbox is the one who agrees with you

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:20 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post

See my reply above. You try and call out my knowledge of the game but I'm willing to bet that other then your Xbox, you have no experience actually playing the game.

I want to add, having a Gorges type of player is important to have a winning team. But at the value 99% of players similar to him are getting, we vastly overpaid, and it's not even close.
You need to reply all these people because you're way off about Gorges. Anyone who understand the game would understand Gorges is our best defenseman this season. He is a leader in the room and is not shy to face the music with the media after every game... something you don't even seem to appreciate. He doesn't need to do it and I bet when the team is playing like their is right now, most of the player would just want to take their shower and go home.

Gorges is a top 3 or top 4 defenseman, so his salary is accurate. Gorges can even be a 1st pair defenseman easily if paired with an offensive D. Gorges will do the job defensively no matter where he plays. Last game was a good example, he kept Ovie out of the dangerous zone the whole game. Bet you didn't see that.

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:25 PM
  #35
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The legend of Josh Gorges grows. Pretty sure our PK was good without him last year...but hey...what do I know?

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:31 PM
  #36
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I'm curious now, I have heard so many good things about this signing from actual hockey experts, has anything negative come out (please, only reliable sources). Who cares what HF users have to say right (including me), has anything concrete ever came out of this deal?

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:32 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The legend of Josh Gorges grows. Pretty sure our PK was good without him last year...but hey...what do I know?
Not much.

It was good but was it first?

With Gorges, 1st, without Gorges 7th.

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:32 PM
  #38
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Do you take into account that he loses a lot of his salary because of taxes?

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
People need to understand the market. UFAs get more money because you can sign them for free. Not only that, but the player going to the highest bidder means that the price for a guy is set by the highest amount he COULD get to a particular team that has a need for him. Almost all of the producers' surplus goes to the player in such a case.

RFA-age players allow for a surplus in value to the team. In other words, the player is paid BELOW free-market value. He is NOT allowed to go to the highest bidder, and anyone who bids for him MUST give compensation to the team that had him before. Thus RFA-age players can be obtained by trading another player or players, or prospects or picks, but in all cases these are ASSETS given up. The team still "overpays" to get that player, but now it comes not all from salary but also partly from players given back or other assets given back.

Don't expect to see bargain UFA contracts very often, at least not for those who sign early. Sometimes you can get a bargain very late in the summer for a guy who slipped through July but you cannot COUNT on building a team that way. If you feel you have a need for an Eric Cole type player, you bite the bullet and pay on July 1st or so, because the chances of him still being around on August 15th and available for $750k for one year are pretty slim.

Is $4.5M for 4 years steep for Cole? Yes, in one sense, meaning compared to what he was making a few years ago as an RFA. However, to get him then, it might have cost Andrei Markov or a top pick or prospect that could turn out to be a Pacioretty, Price or Subban.

So, how do teams afford UFAs if they cost more than RFAs? Simple, the cap allows for a mix of both. No need to stay away from ALL UFA contracts and it is not efficient to ONLY go after UFAs.

To add, Gorges signed as basically a UFA, were all the listed signed to these contract as UFAs or RFAs or a mixture ? The other point is in my humble, subjective opinion the contract is fine and thats the price for a solid defensive D-man signing as a UFA eg see Gleason.

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:41 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post
I'm guessing you're one of the only poster around here who has actually played the game.
You're so deluded. You've picked the one person in the thread who agrees with you and decided he's the next smartest person in the world. 100 people have said you're wrong, yet you continue to parade your opinion around like it's the only correct one, cherry picking posts like that guy above to prove your point.

"see, one person agrees with me, that means I'm the best!!"

Anyone can look at stat sheets to pick out the best players on the team, when you actually watch games you understand how valuable Gorges is.

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02-05-2012, 12:43 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post
i'll take pretty much everyone in that list over Gorges.
That's fine. I'd take Michalek over Gorges in a heartbeat. Conversely, I'd take Gorges over broken down Brewer in a heartbeat as well.

As far as comparable player contracts go, his value to the Habs is comparable with those players' value to their respective teams.

You've drawn up a mostly irrelevant list of comparable contracts, thinking it proved a point. It didn't. Now you're stuck backing up your point with the pathetic last resort argument of "I've played the game."

I actually think Gorges is getting paid a couple 100K more than he should and think it would have been nice if the contract could have been done in a way that included this season, reducing his long term cap hit just a touch. It's really not that big of a deal though, because his contract is fairly close to what his market value should be. You can argue otherwise, but that doesn't make your point correct.

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:45 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Not much.

It was good but was it first?

With Gorges, 1st, without Gorges 7th.
And this team has a far better record with Gomez in the lineup. Gorges is good on the PK but to act like he's the reason why the PK is tops in the league is ridiculous.

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:45 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
You're so deluded. You've picked the one person in the thread who agrees with you and decided he's the next smartest person in the world. 100 people have said you're wrong, yet you continue to parade your opinion around like it's the only correct one, cherry picking posts like that guy above to prove your point.

"see, one person agrees with me, that means I'm the best!!"

Anyone can look at stat sheets to pick out the best players on the team, when you actually watch games you understand how valuable Gorges is.
*astonished* Who would ever do such a thing.

Nicely put. Anyways, ALL players have their strengths and weaknesses. By concentraing only on someone's weaknesses, nobody is worth their salary. Look at Crosby or Malkin. Definitely not worth their salaries

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:52 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
And this team has a far better record with Gomez in the lineup. Gorges is good on the PK but to act like he's the reason why the PK is tops in the league is ridiculous.
Well you said it, Gorges is GOOD on the PK. I highly doubt we would be 1st on the PK this year without Gorges.

Our team is 1st on the PK and Gorges is a big factor for that.

Gorges is 1st in the league for block shots.

Gorges is first in our team in +/-.

So I'm pretty sure, defensively, there must be something really good with Gorges.

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:54 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
And this team has a far better record with Gomez in the lineup. Gorges is good on the PK but to act like he's the reason why the PK is tops in the league is ridiculous.
how so? You said it yourself... he is second in the league in SH TOI on the best PK in the league. I`d say he is the main reason after, obviously, the goaltender.

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:54 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post
O'byrne got 21 million $ less, Seidenberg 11 million $ less. You're gonna argue that Gorges is worth that much more then those guys?
o'byrne is a third pairing defenseman and not very good i might add, OF COURSE HE MAKES LESS MONEY

seidenberg has become a very good first pairing defenseman, better than gorges imo but when he signed that contract, he wasn't near this good. also playing chara probably helps that

so, gorges is crap, you couldn't give desharnais away for free, nice. i like your hockey knowledge

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Old
02-05-2012, 12:58 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Well you said it, Gorges is GOOD on the PK. I highly doubt we would be 1st on the PK this year without Gorges.

Our team is 1st on the PK and Gorges is a big factor for that.

Gorges is 1st in the league for block shots.

Gorges is first in our team in +/-.

So I'm pretty sure, defensively, there must be something really good with Gorges.
And I doubt we'd be 1st without the system, Plekanec, Hal Gill and Price. To say he IS the sole reason why the PK is tops in the league is ridiculous. Was PK the sole reason why our PP was tops last year? Good grief. He's a good at what he does...blocking shots and playing a good positional game but he's not the 2nd coming of Scott Stevens. He still has many holes in his game. But apparently he's a top pairing dman.

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Old
02-05-2012, 01:06 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
And I doubt we'd be 1st without the system, Plekanec, Hal Gill and Price. To say he IS the sole reason why the PK is tops in the league is ridiculous. Was PK the sole reason why our PP was tops last year? Good grief. He's a good at what he does...blocking shots and playing a good positional game but he's not the 2nd coming of Scott Stevens. He still has many holes in his game. But apparently he's a top pairing dman.
So smart guy, what are the big defensively flaws that you see in Gorges game? If Gorges is good offensively, he would be making 5-6M$+.

Gorges is almost always playing against the best opponent's line. You put him with a Lidstrom, Chara, Weber, Keith, Markov, Pronger etc etc.. and he will not look out of place. He is not top defenseman.. but he can complement a first pair with an offensive defesenman.

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02-05-2012, 01:18 PM
  #49
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Why are we comparing the sum of the money in the contract? Some guys are older and would not get 6 year deals like Josh. The only thing that matters is the average cap hit, and at 3.9 million for a top 4 defenseman its a very good contract.

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Old
02-05-2012, 01:25 PM
  #50
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gorges being good; apparent rocket science.

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