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System or players?

View Poll Results: Are our offensive woes caused by the system or players limited ability?
System sucks, too D focussed 21 42.00%
Players suck, couldn't hit the side of a barn 18 36.00%
Other 11 22.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-05-2012, 03:42 PM
  #26
BigBrown
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"The Kings have scored fewer than two goals in 20 of their 53 games this season" from Hammond

That's just unreal. Basically in any given Kings game they're almost 40% likely to score just one goal, or get shut out.

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Old
02-05-2012, 04:11 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoreZeGoals View Post
Who could possibly disagree with such a deep articulate argument?
LOL Question,

Is this the same system as last year and the year before that?

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02-05-2012, 05:14 PM
  #28
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
LOL Question,

Is this the same system as last year and the year before that?
Yes, the one that is 29th in 5-on-5 goals the past 3+ years.

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02-05-2012, 05:25 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Yes, the one that is 29th in 5-on-5 goals the past 3+ years.
Ok, so the past two years, you had players like Brown, Kopitar, Williams, Smyth, all score 20+ goals.....

Except this year.....so if they performed in the system the past two years....why not this year?

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02-05-2012, 05:55 PM
  #30
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Ok, so the past two years, you had players like Brown, Kopitar, Williams, Smyth, all score 20+ goals.....

Except this year.....so if they performed in the system the past two years....why not this year?
25th in offense last year was performing? Wow, bar set low.

The Kings have been terrible for 3+ years 5-on-5 and they had one good PP year with a different assistant coach.

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02-05-2012, 06:01 PM
  #31
Minor Boarding
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
25th in offense last year was performing? Wow, bar set low.

The Kings have been terrible for 3+ years 5-on-5 and they had one good PP year with a different assistant coach.
THIS.

Also Kopitar and Brown are close to their respective career averages...
Jack Johnson is having his best year of his career and so does Quick.

Other players however...

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02-05-2012, 06:12 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
25th in offense last year was performing? Wow, bar set low.

The Kings have been terrible for 3+ years 5-on-5 and they had one good PP year with a different assistant coach.
Those 4 players performed in the system the past 2 years, this year, not so much...that's not a systems issue.

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02-05-2012, 06:23 PM
  #33
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Those 4 players performed in the system the past 2 years, this year, not so much...that's not a systems issue.
You really think they all score the same in a Detroit system? Boston? Philly?

Kopitar should be pushing 40 goals. Brown should be at 30. Same with Williams.

How is 20 goals performing? You really think 20 goals is their ceiling? That's just sad.

Smyth is doing better in Edmonton.

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Old
02-06-2012, 01:46 AM
  #34
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I try not to read anything Dancing Boy writes, but this entry is interesting, plus it goes along with the thread.

Quote:
“The problem isn’t the players,” one exec began. “The problem was with (Murray) and now Sutter.”
“All of the players are playing in fear. Fear of making a mistake. They’re not allowed to be creative and do what they do. I’ve been around hockey players a long time. They’re playing NOT to make a mistake.”
“Murray got them to play defense, but he took away their creativity. When they tried to do something and it didn’t work, Murray was all over them for it so they stopped trying to do what they’ve done all of their lives and to had to buy into his system.”
http://bigmouthbarry.com/2012/02/05/fear/

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Old
02-06-2012, 02:28 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruel11 View Post
I try not to read anything Dancing Boy writes, but this entry is interesting, plus it goes along with the thread.



http://bigmouthbarry.com/2012/02/05/fear/
i think i know what DS is referring to is when has has to be careful with this team.

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Old
02-06-2012, 05:06 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
You really think they all score the same in a Detroit system? Boston? Philly?

Kopitar should be pushing 40 goals. Brown should be at 30. Same with Williams.

How is 20 goals performing? You really think 20 goals is their ceiling? That's just sad.

Smyth is doing better in Edmonton.


i think kopi can top 30 max with a load of assists on browns 25-30 and williams 25-30
penner also has potential to be a 20 goal scorer if he would block the goalies view, i honestly dont think they're using penner right..
Lewis has speed and no finish, but he's improving.

How different would this team be with scott parse ?

It's obviously based on both, the knucklehead Lombardi can't create an offensive phenom, while some of the players currently on this roster couldn't hit the pacific ocean if they jumped out of the boat(stole it from a few people i saw post it, fits perfectly for this team).
I think a problem is Stoll at 30 years old should be in his prime for another year or so is being forced to play the wing due to the injury of gagne and the lack of productivity by penner and it's really hurting his playing.
What has DL really done for this team?
He brought in Richards, Kopitar, Johnson, Doughty, Gagne, Penner (**** trade btw) and some others.

I think he's been in the office for two long and he needs to go, I just hope the owner doesn't bring in a GM who wants to completely re-do the team.
Darryl Sutter is not to blame.. He is by far a much better coach then TM and he has at least got LA in the top 8 so far. He is working with the **** talent he has.

Todd Cordell via twitter: Cordell made note that Darren Dreger said on TSN1050 radio that the Kings are interested in Maple Leafs Nikolai Kulemin and Clarke MacArthur.

both of those players are bottom 6 for this team. Kulemin has like 4 goals or something. I don't want to see Clifford traded. Hunter can't be drawing in any interest and I can't see Frasier going(btw y would dl trade for another center?).

Ryan Malone has also been mentioned... He can help out a bottom 6, possibly even 2nd line with Richards.


Dennis Bernstein via twitter: If the Kings end up trading one of their defenseman, it would likely be Jack Johnson. He’s in the rumors as he’s a 24 year old Dman on a long term deal with a decent salary cap hit.

if johnson and bernier move we better be getting a 1st line player who is young..

/rant

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Old
02-06-2012, 06:14 AM
  #37
SuperAlmeida
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It is the system

Look at:

- Matt Moulson
- Teddy Purcell
- Alexei Ponikarovsky
- Wayne Simmonds
etc.

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Old
02-06-2012, 07:24 AM
  #38
topliner967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
25th in offense last year was performing? Wow, bar set low.

The Kings have been terrible for 3+ years 5-on-5 and they had one good PP year with a different assistant coach.
25th with 2.55, compared to 2.09 right now (that is quite a drop off). In 08-09 they were 9th with 2.82. Then again, their GA/G have improved while the G/G have dropped off (I guess it's a combination of Quick getting better and the "defence first" kind of thinking getting more ingrained).

In 08-09 the Bruins were last in G/G with 2.39; 2nd in GA/G with 2.33. 09-10 they had improved their G/G to 2.98 (5th), and their GA/G had gone down to 2.30 (2nd overall). I know Boston plays a different kind of hockey, but I think the Kings need to realize that you can have a more offensive minded system and still have a good GA/G, which should be possible with Quick and the Kings D. Offensively the Kings forwards are good enough to score >2.5 G/G.

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Old
02-06-2012, 08:51 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topliner967 View Post
25th with 2.55, compared to 2.09 right now (that is quite a drop off). In 08-09 they were 9th with 2.82. Then again, their GA/G have improved while the G/G have dropped off (I guess it's a combination of Quick getting better and the "defence first" kind of thinking getting more ingrained).

In 08-09 the Bruins were last in G/G with 2.39; 2nd in GA/G with 2.33. 09-10 they had improved their G/G to 2.98 (5th), and their GA/G had gone down to 2.30 (2nd overall). I know Boston plays a different kind of hockey, but I think the Kings need to realize that you can have a more offensive minded system and still have a good GA/G, which should be possible with Quick and the Kings D. Offensively the Kings forwards are good enough to score >2.5 G/G.
Is there really a system so defensive that your own players can't score because of it? I don't see the Kings as being so air tight in their own zone that such would be the case.

The Kings didn't want to trade Smyth, and the Oilers didn't want to trade for him. Smyth had his faults, but 23 goals and 47 points for a 4th line center isn't a fair deal. They sign Gagne to replace Smyth, knowing he has injury issues, but there really wasn't much else out there to get, and he's no longer even on the ice. Penner is putting up 4th line numbers, and hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the "players vs. system" question. There goes your LW problem. Add in Richardson having a down year, even by by his modest expectations. Clifford is in his 2nd year, so the ups and downs are going to be there.

The Kings couldn't sign Handzus at $4 million again, and he wasn't going to come back for a penny less than that. They gave up Simmonds to get Richards, and haven't come close to replacing anything Simmonds did. The Kings have only 2 wingers doing anything at all this season, so Richards is pretty much out there by himself every shift, and isn't playing all that great at the moment either. Stoll had Smyth and Brown for most of last season on his wings, and when he's been at C, hasn't had that kind of talent along side him this season. Plus, he just hasn't been playing all that well either.

The crazy thing is that we're not talking about a lot of goals that the Kings need. If they just had 18 more goals(as an example), on average 1 more goal for every player suited up for a given game, where are the Kings in the standings? 18 more goals. Just 18 more goals in the 53 games they've played. That's not Gretzky's Oilers we're looking at. That would put the Kings at a whopping 133 GF. They're fighting for the conference lead right now if they had that.

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Old
02-06-2012, 10:39 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperAlmeida View Post
It is the system

Look at:

- Matt Moulson
- Teddy Purcell
- Alexei Ponikarovsky
- Wayne Simmonds
etc.
You're kidding me right?

With the exception of Moulson, every other player you listed has been up and down with their current teams, Ponikarovsky has 9 goals playing top 6.....who would he replace on the top six of LA?

Simmonds has been the Flyers Ryan Smyth, they park his ass in front on the PP and he taps them in, without his PP points, he is right on par with what he was doing in LA, WITH MORE ICE TIME THAN HE WAS GETTING IN LA.

Seriously, you want to throw Boyle, Halpern, and Modin in there as well?

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Old
02-06-2012, 10:39 AM
  #41
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I think Winger23 got it right in this thread http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1099067

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger23
It's the board work that Zus, Smyth and Simmer brought that the Kings desperately miss. These guys could cycle with the best of em. Now the Kings are relying on guys like Penner, Richardson, Stoll to dig pucks out of the corner, they are just not that those type of players.

The system still needs to be changed. This team has no real identity. They are not a fast skilled team, nor are they a big bodied, grind along the board team. They are just...average. They lack the elite scoring threat the real contenders have. Vancouver, San Jose, Chicago, Detroit all have elite players that produce...
The way the Kings scored for the past couple of seasons was cycling in the corners, wearing teams out, and then getting scoring chances/powerplays as a result of that. Last game was a good example of them still mostly getting pucks in the corner and then trying to work things from there. When they are on their game though, they are very good (like the game against the canucks). Williams has the ability to be a good puck retriever when he is on his game, same with Richardson/Clifford and latley Lewis. But loosing Smyth/Simmonds/Handzus probably hurt the team more than most expected.

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02-06-2012, 11:39 AM
  #42
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topliner967 View Post
I think Winger23 got it right in this thread http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1099067



The way the Kings scored for the past couple of seasons was cycling in the corners, wearing teams out, and then getting scoring chances/powerplays as a result of that. Last game was a good example of them still mostly getting pucks in the corner and then trying to work things from there. When they are on their game though, they are very good (like the game against the canucks). Williams has the ability to be a good puck retriever when he is on his game, same with Richardson/Clifford and latley Lewis. But loosing Smyth/Simmonds/Handzus probably hurt the team more than most expected.
Again, 25th in the league last year. Not exactly a high bar for offense. The year of the strong PP only got the Kings to 9th overall in offense. 3+ years of Murray/Sutter have the Kings at 29th in total 5-on-5 goals, Minnesota will probably pass the Kings in the next few weeks, they are only 3 goals back.

That is a system issue.

Playing the same system with more skilled players is why the Kings are 30th in offense now. If you don't play in the middle and below the circles, you are not going to be a top 10 offense. Doesn't matter who you have in your lineup.

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Old
02-06-2012, 11:52 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kopi11 View Post
I think it's a combination of both. Some players can't finish and some players don't do well in the system.
This is exactly it. I imagine next year Pancakes scores 30 with a different team.

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Old
02-06-2012, 12:25 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoreZeGoals View Post
Who could possibly disagree with such a deep articulate argument?
Well I wanted to post something concrete but it was super bowl and I didn't want to waste my time explaining myself

But in all honesty I know a lot of you will disagree to what I am about to say.

I agree with people to an extent that the system is flawed. I mean hell who doesnt want Kopi to score more than 40+ goals. Who doesn't want this team to be at least in the middle of the pack in scoring? No matter what happens, if this team continues to to suffer, management will once again suffer. That's just how every business works.

Everyone knows the system that we have been playing for the past 3 years. We dump and chase, forecheck, crash the net, screen the goalie, pretty much just harass their zone. But who has been doing that? Brown, Kopi, and Richards are the only three that catches my attention. The rest, what the hell are you guys doing?

Sometimes I question what it is like in a Kings practice. We knew that TM was pretty laid back during practice. How about Sutter? Are our players taking shooting drills because stoll, richardson, and lewis cant score for ****, so I guess its the systems fault? Stoll, richardson, and lewis had more pts and goals last season and we had the same system. The real reason I believe is them. Their confidences are not there, they think they can just tap the puck in. They think shooting the puck wide or right at the goalie will score goals (lol).

Even with the new coach, we still have problems scoring goals. Now I wish I had some kind of cool feature where I can pinpoint some plays, but ever since Sutter got here, I can say that our passing has been A LOT better. Our players have been playing better (Lewis, DD, 3rd line, and Penner) but these guys cant seem to aim the puck at the right location. There were many occasions where lewis or stoll could have had a goal on a rebound but they would just tap it in or shoot the puck right at the goalie... I mean really we are going to say that the system is flawed when we outshoot our opponents majority of the time?

You can disagree all you want and I welcome that since this is opinion based but a lot of our players are still bad. Good players will adjust well in any system, that's my belief. So if you can't adjust well in this system then you're just bad. I'm confident that if we add some depth in our wings and a few veteran leaders (i.e. Smyth and Zues) you will see a change in our scoring woes. Perhaps not significant but it will at least help. I just don't know if adding Carter will help, but Zach Parise is perhaps the answer to our problem. (Olympian, a leader, and a natural winger).

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Old
02-06-2012, 02:10 PM
  #45
Jason Lewis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
THIS.

Also Kopitar and Brown are close to their respective career averages...
Jack Johnson is having his best year of his career and so does Quick.

Other players however...
Yup.


The core has actually looked pretty good.

Kopitar is on pace for little over season average, so is Brown. Johnson a career year. Even Doughty is on pace for just above 40 points which would be better then last year (but he does need to be better). Quick is having a Vezina worthy year...Matt Greene has been good defensively...Voynov looks promising, Williams has been good of late



It's the supporting cast that blows this year.

The following players are on pace for below average point total seasons:
Richardson
Lewis
Stoll (WAY off pace 20 points as opposed to 43)
Penner (WAY off pace 18-20 points as opposed to 45)
Hunter

Westgarth is Westgarth

Loktionov is in his rookie season and is on pace for about 8 assists. Clifford is on pace to match.

So how do Richards, Kopitar, Brown, Williams, Johnson and Doughty, who are on pace or just above average, balance out 6 players who are underperforming? And some who are SIGNIFICANTLY underperforming. I mean you are talking almost 50 points of missing production from Stoll and Penner when you compare it against season averages....and let's say another...20-30 points from other players like Richie, Lewis, Hunter, Loktionov..

Mind you that the players I just mentioned (Kopi, Brown etc etc) are matched up against the teams best players every game, night in and night out.

That's a ton to ask of Kopitar, Brown, Richards, and Johnson...who I think have been pretty good this season...to up their tempo to make up for 70-80 points of support production they aren't getting this season.


Something interesting, let's say less then half of that missing 80 points is goals. Let's say...30 of them are goals 50 are assist...that's realistic i'd say. We are currently sitting dead last in total goals with....

111

If you add 30 goals to that total, we have 141. Know where that puts us?

11th place in the league.


Last edited by Jason Lewis: 02-06-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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Old
02-07-2012, 08:57 AM
  #46
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Some players....

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Old
02-07-2012, 02:00 PM
  #47
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Usually, when you have players playing out of position (Richards and Stoll playing wings at times and Brown playing LW), you have depth. But noooooooo, that's not the case for us.

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02-09-2012, 03:40 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoKingsGoo View Post
The problem with the system starts as soon as the Kings gain puck possession. The system is focused on getting pucks deep and crashing the net. To me, this kind of system is mainly for young, inexperienced teams, because the game is about simplifying. However, all elite teams have some fluidity in their game; the Kings don't have that. All elite teams make stick-to-stick passes and gain zone entry seamlessly. The Kings are tentative in that department because their system doesn't encourage it. You can play a very defensive system and still score. Just look at the Blues and Bruins.
Some of the best analysis yet.

We seem not to be training our players to work with
high-precision at high tempo.

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Old
02-09-2012, 03:52 PM
  #49
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People misinterpret the term "system" as if it dictates every step the player takes.

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02-09-2012, 04:01 PM
  #50
triplcrown
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This quote from Cruel11 also makes mucho sense:

“The problem isn’t the players,” one exec began. “The problem was with (Murray) and now Sutter.”
“All of the players are playing in fear. Fear of making a mistake. They’re not allowed to be creative and do what they do. I’ve been around hockey players a long time. They’re playing NOT to make a mistake.”
“Murray got them to play defense, but he took away their creativity. When they tried to do something and it didn’t work, Murray was all over them for it so they stopped trying to do what they’ve done all of their lives and to had to buy into his system.”


Creativity is a beautiful young nymph who has been beaten, bludgeoned, hogtied, gagged, injected with cleaning fluid, blindfolded and locked in a deep pit in the basement of Staples Center.

She is not well.

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