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Old
11-09-2003, 03:38 PM
  #76
DJ Spinoza
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Yeah, I think this is a pretty good thread in terms of discussing things.

I wish someone had some replies on my thoughts on the way this team is headed, though.

I just don't see much the Pens can do right now to improve things for the present.

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11-09-2003, 03:44 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Uh... no.

The thread actually contains a LOT of interesting information if you ignore a few heated moments. Steve Latin in particular was extremely informative and provided tons of great links and good arguments.

Useless threads get the axe. Informative threads that hurt someone's feelings shouldn't.
Guess you're right....the first page or so of posts is not to hot, but it does start getting better afterwards.....my problem is I can never ignore those unnecessary comments....I don't really care for the title of this thread either.....oh well....feelings not hurt, just gets tiresome after awhile....but it seems the blatant bashing has fizzled out.....

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Old
11-09-2003, 03:44 PM
  #78
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
I think everyone is underestimating the cold, calculating logic of the Pens brain trust. They got their man in Fleury and now they have their designs set on Ovechkin. They may even be in the running for Crosby. Landing 2 affordable franchise players is their best chance at remaining a viable NHL franchise. The Pens will be a post-CBA powerhouse with this strategy.
While planning long term is a good thing, you just can't rely on an hypothetical salary cap or other solutions in the next CBA.

Many people including countless reporters and even owners expected a reasonable CBA last time around. It didn't happen then and a lot of what I have seen this summer leads me to think ownership is not going to gain much ground. I expect improvements, but subtle ones.

The road to success in the NHL isn't accomplished by simply tanking it.

There is also no garantee that the Penguins will indeed get the #1 pick even if they finish last and there is no garantee Ovechkin will be any better than a great number of young players like Heatley, Gaborik, Staal, Horton, Thornton, Iginla, Nash, Lecavalier, Hossa, Spezza to name only FORWARDS.

I see no clear indication that the Penguins are a future powerhouse.

They have some upcoming young players/prospects but are pretty average when compared to the situation of many NHL teams. Most of the league has just as bright a chance for a good future. And better ownership/local ressources to pull it off off regardless of the nature of the next CBA.

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Old
11-09-2003, 03:59 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDB3939

Ottawa and Tampa Bay were a ****ing doormat for nearly a decade before they became NHL powers. The Pens aren't allowed to field a poor team for a few years?
I can't agree with this point more. Alot of teams go through a period of rough times, and it's understandable. Look at the Islanders from the mid to late 90's, they were horrible, but they build their team back up and are now a good team again.

As a Pens fan, I'm willing to go through a few rough years. We have alot of good young players in our system, and the way things are heading we'll end up with another good player at the end of the year. Who knows, we could end up with a franchise forward at next years draft, after a franchise goalie this past year.

Once these younger guys get some experience, we'll be fine. As a fan, you just have to be patient, and go through the rough times. And by being a Pirate fan the last 10+ years, I'm all too familiar with rough times and being one of the laughing stocks of the league.

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Old
11-09-2003, 04:12 PM
  #80
DJ Spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
While planning long term is a good thing, you just can't rely on an hypothetical salary cap or other solutions in the next CBA.
To be blunt, if this hypothetical salary cap or other solutions do not come to pass, the Pens are screwed. They have to bank off what hope they have.

As far as the top pick, at least they will likely be taking one of the highest projected forwards (in all likelyhood)...That's about all you can do with your top pick. (I am saying forward just for this example, based on the circumstances).

As far as a future powerhouse, the Penguins prospect strength is in the defense. I would say that their defensive group of prospects, including Fleury, is second to none in the league.

Forwards is a different story, although they might have some players. Plus they'll add a star blue-chip forward likely this year.

That's not to say that this team will be a dynasty or anything in 3 years, but they have done what looks to be a good job as far as drafting to rebuild from the goal out.

If guys like Whitney, Welch, and Lupaschuk start to pan out as Orpik and Fleury are doing now, then you have the makings of a pretty good young defense. You add a free agent or two to the mix, and suddenly, we actually have the semblance of a good defensive corps.

If Ovechkin, Malkin, Olesz or whomever pans out, and say you can have some guys like Surovy, Murley, Kraft, Beech, Eaves, Fata, Malone, or whomever surrounding him, then you might not have too bad of an offense either. Add a FA here and there to fill any holes you have, and maybe this team is a competitor again.

From where I sit, what I see the Penguins doing is about all they can do, and I support it. It's a shame we have to bank on a salary cap and a new arena, but that's just how it is. It's also a shame that this Tampa game is not the last shalacking we will recieve all year, but it looks like that's the cold reality of things too.

I still don't see what other choice the Pens have, other than rebuilding (which is what they are doing, obviously).

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Old
11-09-2003, 04:32 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud The Spud
Montreal fans are just thinking Ovechkin too :p

Whatever the Caps deserve him more COME TO WAS. ALEX

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Old
11-09-2003, 06:14 PM
  #82
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Hey! I have the answer and it has been being told to us by Pens fans all year long. Its so simple! Just bring up EVERY solid prospect that the Pens have in their system! I have been being told all season long (ok since the pre season too) that the reason that MAF is in the NHL is that he belongs there and that he is the best that the Pens have to play. Why not take that same "logic" and apply it to the teams current situation?

The Pens just need to bring up the rest of their talented kids and put them on the ice. From what I have been told it will be the best thing for their developement AND it will give them NHL experience so it can ONLY make them better, RIGHT?

I mean, the same rules apply to them that apply to MAF. IF it is going to only be a good thing for MAF then it can only be a good thing for the rest of them and since the Pens suck anyways, why not just let the kids take over?

I know, it is lame to even suggest such a thing but at least now you know how the whole MAF arguement looks to allot of the rest of us.

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Old
11-09-2003, 06:30 PM
  #83
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Take away the hackneyed sarcasm, and I agree with IGM.

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Old
11-09-2003, 06:36 PM
  #84
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Well, I have an idea. At long as we're responding, let's follow the post template that IGM has created for us!

Since it's clear that IGM always knows what he's talking about, there is NO BETTER poster on this board to respect and emulate.

This style will NEVER get sickeningly annoying, and will ALWAYS be interesting and compelling.

I mean, since EVERYBODY takes his posts seriously, we can only be BETTER for trying to act likewise. It's "logical," right?

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Old
11-09-2003, 08:11 PM
  #85
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Look, I agree that Mario Lemieux's dual role as player/owner has hurt the franchise. However, there have been a few statements I'm taking issue with.

1) The Kovalev deal was bad. No, it wasn't. The mistake people are making is thinking that it was a trade. It wasn't - it was a sale.

The fact remains that Pat Quinn all but admitted he'd offered up Antropov and Colaiacovo for Kovalev and CP/ML didn't bite. Why? Well, it's not because Craig Patrick is a poor judge of talent, because he isn't. It's not because Mario is meddling in management because even he isn't that stupid. Pittsburgh wanted the NHL maximum $8 million in cash thrown in with the deal. CP/ML also wanted the team he dealt with to pay the salaries of all players in the deal. Quinn flat-out said it was due to financial condition Penguins management demanded that he bailed.

Add to that the fact that Fata has outproduced Kovalev and Samuelsson landed Marc-Andre Fleury and I don't see how anyone could say it was bad for the franchise.

2) Lemieux is a hypocrite for criticizing what league salaries have become. Excuse me? While Lemieux and Gretzky may have started the league down the path, no one in their right mind (aside from maybe Bob Goodenow ) knew where the hell that path was leading at the time. Mario and Wayne demanded premiere bucks when they were premiere players, and now they can't talk when you have third-liners making $9 million per and $11 million wingers disappearing because his ugly-ass girlfriend dumped him when he shaved his mullet? Bull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDB3939
Ottawa and Tampa Bay were a ****ing doormat for nearly a decade before they became NHL powers. The Pens aren't allowed to field a poor team for a few years?
Everyone should read this over and over again.

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Old
11-09-2003, 08:28 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Look, I agree that Mario Lemieux's dual role as player/owner has hurt the franchise. However, there have been a few statements I'm taking issue with.

1) The Kovalev deal was bad. No, it wasn't. The mistake people are making is thinking that it was a trade. It wasn't - it was a sale.

The fact remains that Pat Quinn all but admitted he'd offered up Antropov and Colaiacovo for Kovalev and CP/ML didn't bite. Why? Well, it's not because Craig Patrick is a poor judge of talent, because he isn't. It's not because Mario is meddling in management because even he isn't that stupid. Pittsburgh wanted the NHL maximum $8 million in cash thrown in with the deal. CP/ML also wanted the team he dealt with to pay the salaries of all players in the deal. Quinn flat-out said it was due to financial condition Penguins management demanded that he bailed.

Add to that the fact that Fata has outproduced Kovalev and Samuelsson landed Marc-Andre Fleury and I don't see how anyone could say it was bad for the franchise.

2) Lemieux is a hypocrite for criticizing what league salaries have become. Excuse me? While Lemieux and Gretzky may have started the league down the path, no one in their right mind (aside from maybe Bob Goodenow ) knew where the hell that path was leading at the time. Mario and Wayne demanded premiere bucks when they were premiere players, and now they can't talk when you have third-liners making $9 million per and $11 million wingers disappearing because his ugly-ass girlfriend dumped him when he shaved his mullet? Bull.
1) you are right, quinn did bail because the Pens wanted the other team to take laukanen and Wilson along with Kovale, an additional 2.3M (prorated of course). also, teh league max is about 4.9M, not 8M. we got 4.9M for kovalev, and 4M for jagr.

2) you have to remember, Mario pretty much speaks from the owner standpoint anymore. im not sure the nhlpa even wants him, or even allows him to talk from a player standpoint. mario basically has a special set of rules to follow.

also, he is trying to keep a franchise afloat, can you really blame him for what he is saying? if in his position, wouldnt you say the same things? call it caring for his team, call it protecting his investment, doesnt matter, because i think if we were in his shoes he would be acting no different.

also, do remember, the previous owner handed out cash that he could never pay to keep people like Francis and others, hence sending the team into the financial nosedive it took in the last 5 years.

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Old
11-10-2003, 12:10 AM
  #87
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
2) Lemieux is a hypocrite for criticizing what league salaries have become. Excuse me? While Lemieux and Gretzky may have started the league down the path, no one in their right mind (aside from maybe Bob Goodenow ) knew where the hell that path was leading at the time. Mario and Wayne demanded premiere bucks when they were premiere players, and now they can't talk when you have third-liners making $9 million per and $11 million wingers disappearing because his ugly-ass girlfriend dumped him when he shaved his mullet? Bull.
We all knew where it was going: to hell

It was very alarming and the trend kept on going and going. This goes far back. I can still see Gretzky shedding a crocodile tear when he left Edmonton. Then he wreaked havoc in LA with that fat **** McNall who eventually ended up in prison.

We have read dozens of articles, interviews with owners, everybody has said for year that the madness was growing and it needed to stop. Meanwhile the players kick back and relax. They have not only ruined the sport with their outrageous demands but also pull their antics like demanding trades, not honoring contracts they have signed, etc.

We could have eight Canadian franchise in this league if not for those money-grubbing agents and guys like Gretzky and Mario who used and abused the system so much so that they've completely screwed up the system.

I'm not saying they should have worked for minimum-wage but I think there is a sane, healthy middle ground between working at McDonald's for pocket change and working for McDonald's at a salary that will allow you to BUY THE ****ING EMPLOYER 12 years later :p

That is besides the point, however. I don't want to single out Gretzky and Mario for the money they've made. I am singling them out as two ****ing fakes and hypocrites who are now changing their tune.

If Mario thinks players are overpaid, I've got news for him: he should forget the grossly disgusting amount of money he is owed because as far as I'm concerned, that was way too much for him as well.

I don't know how the other owners and some observers can think Mario and Wayne will have much impact in the negociations. They have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to money ruining the sport: they are examples of it.

Mario is a SUCCESS STORY for players of today. He is proof that you can make so much money in this sport and have so much leverage that you'll ruin your boss in the process in no time. If Lemieux asks anyone to take a paycut, I hope they'll tell him to go **** himself.

You can't abuse rules and then try to put a stop to it now that you've "made it".

As a hockey fan, I hope salaries are going to go down and hockey will go back to where it belongs: being accessible to fans, with players who honor their word and respect their fans. Probably won't happen but hey, one can dream.

But something tells me karma is going to bite Lemieux's ass and he is going to experience the frustrations of an owner. I'm going to enjoy every second of it.

I cannot comment on the part about Quinn's hypothetical deal for Kovalev. I know you are not one to make things up so I believe you but would like links to know clearly what happened there. There is much crap going in the NHL, a lot of statements that you can read between the lines.

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Old
11-10-2003, 12:31 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit

Everyone should read this over and over again.

Ottawa and Tampa Franchise are in the NHL for 10 years or so now(93) the Sens are decent science 97 aned the Bolts are science 2000 but had some good year between 95 and 2000 .

The Pens are in the NHl science de '70 ( not sure ) and Lemeiux saved them from the mid-80 to the mid 90 then Jagr and co took over for few year before the salary became a major problem in the NHL ... then they did stupid moves and look now .

It remember me the Nordiques at the time , but they haven't dump anyone aside from Sundin ( i still have this trade my mind... ) and they have sell the team to Colorado . Then Colorado added payroll traded for a 1st class goalie and won the cup . .... The same would have been possible if the Pens had sell back in 97 , 98 when Kovalev , Jagr and co were on the team .

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Old
11-10-2003, 04:48 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler


We could have eight Canadian franchise in this league if not for those money-grubbing agents and guys like Gretzky and Mario who used and abused the system so much so that they've completely screwed up the system.
Yeah, how dare Gretzky and Lemieux for accepting money owners threw at them. It's their fault that Quebec and Winnepeg don't have hockey teams anymore.
Mario actually took pay cuts so that Pittsburgh could afford better players. He was owed over $30 million when he retired and used 25 million to buy part of the team and forgot about the rest. Lemieux could have easily demanded his money after he retired and not have bought the team because most teams don't make their owners money, but he didn't. He has done so much for hockey in Pittsburgh and for the game itself that anybody with half a brain could see that. It's the owners' fault that salaries have increased.
The only reason you are critisizing Lemieux and Gretzky is because you want to be like them. You want to have their money, their talent and their lives because your pathetic little life is not good enough for you. Whoever bashes hockeys greats is not a real fan of the game.

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Old
11-10-2003, 07:09 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
While planning long term is a good thing, you just can't rely on an hypothetical salary cap or other solutions in the next CBA.
That's the only thing that small market teams have to rely on. You can talk until you're blue in the face about the proper way to build a team, but small market teams are history unless they get a salary cap. The greatest management in the world isn't going to get them the same media revenues and allow them to charge the same ticket prices as the large market teams. The greatest drafting and player development systems aren't going to allow them to keep those players when they become stars. As far as I'm concerned, small market teams are just treading water until there's a new CBA. If it doesn't allow them to become profitable and competitive, they'll just throw in the towel.

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Old
11-10-2003, 07:17 AM
  #91
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Hey Tom, your garbage posts are nothing to "crow" about either, get it? CROW about? BAAAHAAAHA.

Idiot. Once again I pose an opinion (only as valid as everyone elses) and YOU feel a need to make some lame smart ass comment on it that only served to make you look like the idiot you are. If you ever had to respond to a hockey post without making some childish pathetic hackneyed response it not only would take you the rest of your life to write but would only be as sad and useless as the rest of the garbage you post.

Do us all a favor and stick to talking about hockey. Either that, or just stick to making your personal attacks against me via PM. That way nobody else has to waste their time reading your crap or the garbage I have to post in response.

OK boopie?

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