I see that I had not linked the post for the 1934-35 all-star voting results, so some people thought they were missing. I have now added a link to Post 521 to post 101.
Thanks. Edited the post in the defensemen project thread that referred to this year.
DEFENSE: Butch Bouchard, Mtl 340.5 (15-10-1-0); Flash Hollett, Det 273 (1-12-5-7); Babe Pratt, Tor 93.5 (1-1-5-9); Glen Harmon, Mtl 60 (2-1-1-0); Frank Eddolls, Mtl 58.5 (1-0-2-1); Jack Crawford, Bos 57 (3-2-4-0); Earl Seibert, Chi 45 (0-1-6-2); Leo Lamoureux, Mtl 30 (3-0-1-0); Dit Clapper, Bos 30 (1-0-2-5); Reg Hamilton, Tor 13.5 (0-0-0-2); Ott Heller, NYR 7 (0-0-0-1)
This may have been explained already in the long thread, but how the heck does this scoring system put Harmon ahead of Crawford? Lamoureux is questionable too, but Crawford blatantly has more votes at every level.
This may have been explained already in the long thread, but how the heck does this scoring system put Harmon ahead of Crawford? Lamoureux is questionable too, but Crawford blatantly has more votes at every level.
Some NHL cities had many more voters than other cities. As a result the votes were weighted so each city had equal weight overall. So if Montreal had 15 voters and Chicago had 3 voters, a Chicago vote would be worth 5 times the points of a Montreal vote.
This may have been explained already in the long thread, but how the heck does this scoring system put Harmon ahead of Crawford? Lamoureux is questionable too, but Crawford blatantly has more votes at every level.
Each city was giving equal weight for the voting. Boston might have 9 voters to Toronto's 2, but 9 first place votes from Boston will be worth the same number of points as 2 first place votes from Toronto. One vote from a city with fewer voters can be worth much more than several votes from a city with many voters.
They stopped giving the vote counts after a while, and just gave the point results.
I was only able to find 27 of the 28 votes, but we can give a close approximation of the weighted point totals.
Votes Boston 7; Chicago 1; Detroit 3; Montreal 7; New York 7; Toronto 2. Point values: Boston 9-3; Chicago 63-21; Detroit 21-7; Montreal 9-3; New York 9-3; Toronto 31.5-10.5.
Some NHL cities had many more voters than other cities. As a result the votes were weighted so each city had equal weight overall. So if Montreal had 15 voters and Chicago had 3 voters, a Chicago vote would be worth 5 times the points of a Montreal vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
Each city was giving equal weight for the voting. Boston might have 9 voters to Toronto's 2, but 9 first place votes from Boston will be worth the same number of points as 2 first place votes from Toronto. One vote from a city with fewer voters can be worth much more than several votes from a city with many voters.
They stopped giving the vote counts after a while, and just gave the point results.
That has got to be one of the dumbest voting systems I've ever heard. Thanks for the replies, though!
Here's a link to the original presentation of the manager-voted all star teams in the New York Evening Post for 1927-28. Full voting results are included. (warning: large PDF)
The results for 1927-28. In the format Name, Tm (# of first team votes - # of second team votes). 10 votes were submitted for the first team, and 9 for the second team.
Goal: Roy Worters, Pit (7-1), George Hainsworth, Mon (1-4), Alec Connell, Ott (1-3), John Ross Roach, Tor (1-1)
Right defense: Eddie Shore, Bos (9-0), Frank Clancy, Ott (0-3), Ivan Johnson, NYR (0-3), Reg Noble, Det (1-0), Hap Day, Tor (0-1), Red Dutton, Maroons (0-1), Sylvio Mantha, Mon (0-1)
Left defense: Ivan Johnson, NYR (4-1), Herb Gardiner, Mon (2-3), Frank Clancy (3-0), Art Duncan, Tor (0-1.5), Reg Noble, Det (1-0), Hap Day, Tor (0-1), Eddie Shore, Bos (0-1), Dunc Munro, Maroons (0-1), Lionel Hitchman, Bos (0-0.5)
The voters: Cecil Hart, Eddie Gerard, Dave Gill, Connie Smythe, Shorty Green, Art Ross, Lester Patrick, Jack Adams, Odie Cleghorn, Hugh Lehman. (Reads like a list of NHL trophies.)
Comments:
They hadn't quite figured out how to run a voting system. It looks like they handled first team votes and second team votes separately. So Frank Boucher was named to the second all star team over Frank Nighbor, because he led in second team votes with 3, despite Nighbor having as many total votes and more first place votes.
Why was Howie Morenz left off three ballots at centre? Because three voters put him on Frank Nighbor's left wing.
Hec Kilrea didn't make the second all-star team at either position, but his combined LW/RW voting record is more impressive than either Harry Oliver's or Aurel Joliat's.
There was some vote splitting between positions at defence too, but it looks like they got the right four in the end. Adding defensive positions together gives:
Eddie Shore, Bos (9-1), Ivan Johnson, NYR (4-4), Frank Clancy, Ott (3-3), Herb Gardiner, Mon (2-3), Reg Noble, Det (2-0), Hap Day, Tor (0-2), Art Duncan, Tor (0-1.5), Red Dutton, Maroons (0-1), Sylvio Mantha, Mon (0-1), Dunc Munro, Maroons (0-1), Lionel Hitchman, Bos (0-0.5)
And adding forward positions together gives:
Howie Morenz, Mon (10-0), William Cook, NYR (7-3), George Hay, Det (4-2), Hec Kilrea, Ott (3-2), Frank Nighbor, Ott (3-1), Aurel Joliat, Mon (1-5), Hooley Smith, Maroons (2-1), Frank Boucher, NYR (0-3), Frank Frederickson, Bos (0-3), Harry Oliver, Bos (0-3)Hib Milks, Pit (0-1.5), Normie Himes, NYA (0-1), Jimmy Ward, Maroons (0-1), Art Gagne, Mon (0-1), Percy Galbraith, Bos (0-1)Bill Carson, Tor (0-0.5)
Here's a link to the original presentation of the manager-voted all star teams in the New York Evening Post for 1927-28. Full voting results are included. (warning: large PDF)
So now we have two independent sources for the 27-28 teams, but none for any of the other GM teams. Interesting to see the few areas where the Evening Post and the GMs differed in opinion
So now we have two independent sources for the 27-28 teams, but none for any of the other GM teams. Interesting to see the few areas where the Evening Post and the GMs differed in opinion
I know I saw many more during my search for the official voting results, as they were continued for many years after the official all-star teams started, but here are the only ones that I have links for:
I also recall that for some years there was a poll done along with the early all-star voting. I recall somethings like Morenz is again the fastest skater, and the Americans' success is the biggest story, or biggest surprise story. None of the articles I did see went into much detail though.
So now we have two independent sources for the 27-28 teams, but none for any of the other GM teams. Interesting to see the few areas where the Evening Post and the GMs differed in opinion
The other teams should be available through the same site. It's just time-consuming to search because there is no search function. I'll started with 27-28 because I had a good idea of the date they were released. Will get to the others eventually.
The other teams should be available through the same site. It's just time-consuming to search because there is no search function. I'll started with 27-28 because I had a good idea of the date they were released. Will get to the others eventually.
I look forward to it. If I have time, I'll try to help. Do we have any idea how far the teams go back?
Not sure if we have this yet, but I came in across it and figured it belonged here...
The Sporting News - April 20, 1968:
"First Annual Poll of the Players by The Sporting News" (to select a Western Division All-Star Team)
Player of the Year: Red Berenson - C - St. Louis
Rookie of the Year: Bill Flett - RW - Los Angeles
First Team:
C: Red Berenson - St. Louis
RW: Wayne Connelly - Minnesota
LW: Ab McDonald - Pittsburgh
D: Bill White - Los Angeles
D: Mike McMahon - Minnesota
G: Glenn Hall - St. Louis
Second Team:
C: Ray Cullen - Minnesota
RW: Bill Flett - Los Angeles
LW: Bill Sutherland - Philadelphia
D: Al Arbour - St. Louis
D: Ed Van Impre - Philadelphia
G: Doug Favell - Philadelphia
Not sure if we have this yet, but I came in across it and figured it belonged here...
The Sporting News - April 20, 1968:
"First Annual Poll of the Players by The Sporting News" (to select a Western Division All-Star Team)
Player of the Year: Red Berenson - C - St. Louis
Rookie of the Year: Bill Flett - RW - Los Angeles
First Team:
C: Red Berenson - St. Louis
RW: Wayne Connelly - Minnesota
LW: Ab McDonald - Pittsburgh
D: Bill White - Los Angeles
D: Mike McMahon - Minnesota
G: Glenn Hall - St. Louis
Second Team:
C: Ray Cullen - Minnesota
RW: Bill Flett - Los Angeles
LW: Bill Sutherland - Philadelphia
D: Al Arbour - St. Louis
D: Ed Van Impre - Philadelphia
G: Doug Favell - Philadelphia
ALL-STAR TEAM VOTING Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd)
Goaltender:
1. Henrik Lundqvist NYR 591 (87-50-6); 2. Jonathan Quick, L.A. 424 (47-54-27); 3. Pekka Rinne, NSH 166 (9-26-43); 4. Mike Smith, PHX 57 (0-6-39); 5. Brian Elliott, STL 37 (1-6-14); 6. Marc-Andre Fleury, PIT 24 (1-3-10); 7. Jaroslav Halak, STL 3 (0-0-3); 8. Jimmy Howard, DET 2 (0-0-2); 9. Cory Schneider, VAN 1 (0-0-1)
Defensemen
1. Erik Karlsson, OTT 625 (102-36-7) 2. Shea Weber, NSH 620 (94-49-3). 3. Zdeno Chara, BOS 597 (83-59-5) 4. Alex Pietrangelo, STL 315 (4-84-43) 5. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 123 (5-19-41) 6. Ryan Suter, NSH 93 (1-12-52) 7. Brian Campbell, FLA 79 (2-8-45) 8. Dan Girardi, NYR 64 (2-9-27) 9. Kris Letang, PIT 37 (1-7-11) 10. Dan Hamhuis, VAN 19 (0-2-13) 11. Dustin Byfuglien, WPG 14 (0-2-8) 12. Alexander Edler, VAN 12 (0-0-12) 13. Ryan McDonagh, NYR 11 (0-3-2) 14. Duncan Keith, CHI 9 (0-1-6) 15. Michael Del Zotto, NYR 7 (0-1-4) 16. Dan Boyle, S.J. 5 (0-0-5) 17. Kevin Shattenkirk, STL 4 (0-0-4) 18. Braydon Coburn, PHI 3 (0-1-0) Keith Yandle, PHX 3 (0-1-0) 20. Kevin Bieksa, VAN 2 (0-0-2) 21. Drew Doughty, L.A. 1 (0-0-1) Filip Kuba, OTT 1 (0-0-1) Willie Mitchell, L.A. 1 (0-0-1) Kimmo Timonen, PHI 1 (0-0-1).
Centers
1. Evegeni Malkin, PIT 735 (145-3-1) 2. Steven Stamkos, T.B. 379 (4-112-23) 3. Claude Giroux, PHI 146 (0-28-62) 4. Jason Spezza, OTT 53 (0-4-41) 5. Henrik Sedin, VAN 16 (0-1-13) 6. John Tavares, NYI 6 (0-1-3) 7. Patrice Bergeron, BOS 3 (0-0-3) 8. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 2 (0-0-2) 9. David Backes, STL 1 (0-0-1).
Left wing 1. Ilya Kovalchuk, Devils 537 (91-24-10) 2. Ray Whitney, PHX 219 (14-36-41) 3. James Neal, PIT 217 (26-27-6) 4. Scott Hartnell, PHI 99 (7-17-13) 5. Loui Eriksson, DAL 62 (1-13-18) 6. Patrick Sharp, CHI 51 (2-8-17) 7. Daniel Sedin, VAN 22 (0-7-1) 8. Matt Moulson, NYI 18 (0-3-9) Henrik Zetterberg, DET 18 (0-3-9) 10. Alex Ovechkin, WSH 17 (1-3-3) 11. Patrik Elias, Devils 14 (2-1-1) 12. Zach Parise, Devils. 10 (0-1-7) 13. Jamie Benn, DAL 9 (1-1-1) 14. Joffrey Lupul, TOR 9 (0-1-6) 15. Marian Hossa, CHI 8 (1-1-0) 16. Marian Gaborik, NYR 5 (1-0-0) Milan Lucic, BOS 5 (1-0-0) 18. Phil Kessel, TOR 4 (0-1-1) 19. Milan Michalek, OTT 3 (0-1-0) 20. Jordan Eberle, EDM 1 (0-0-1) Brad Marchand, BOS 1 (0-0-1) Thomas Vanek, BUF 1 (0-0-1) David Perron, STL 1 (0-0-1) Chris Kunitz, PIT 1 (0-0-1).
Right wing 1. James Neal, PIT 345 (58-15-10) 2. Marian Gaborik, NYR 324 (21-61-36) 3. Claude Giroux, PHI 224 (43-3-0) 4. Marian Hossa, CHI 192 (10-34-40) 5. Phil Kessel, TOR 140 (7-23-36) 6. Ilya Kovalchuk, Devils. 45 (7-3-1) 7. Jordan Eberle, EDM 26 (1-3-12) 8. Martin St. Louis, T.B. 15 (0-3-6) 9. Steven Stamkos, T.B. 10 (2-0-0) 10. Radim Vrbata, PHX 5 (0-1-2) 11. Ray Whitney, PHX 4 (0-1-1) 12. Zach Parise, Devils. 3 (0-1-0) Corey Perry, ANA 3 (0-1-0) 14. Ryan Callahan, NYR 1 (0-0-1) Scott Hartnell, PHI 1 (0-0-1) Jarome Iginla, CGY 1 (0-0-1) Jason Pominville, BUF 1 (0-0-1) Patrick Sharp, CHI 1 (0-0-1)
bolded players getting significant votes at two forward positions. doesn't make a difference for neal or kovalchuk, but could giroux have beaten gaborik for second team all-star at RW?
also, neal comes ridiculously close to making the first AND second all-star teams.
Obviously the Lady Byng and Selke lists are just the top 20, but there are some irregularities with some of the results.
The GM award has 39 first place votes, but only 38 second and third place votes.
The All-Star votes have different vote totals for different positions. Goal: 145; Defense: 147 x 2 = 294; Center: 149; Right Wing: 148; Left Wing: 149.
Obviously the Lady Byng and Selke lists are just the top 20, but there are some irregularities with some of the results.
The GM award has 39 first place votes, but only 38 second and third place votes.
The All-Star votes have different vote totals for different positions. Goal: 145; Defense: 147 x 2 = 294; Center: 149; Right Wing: 148; Left Wing: 149.
Here is the full voting record for the Lady Byng and Selke:
The Neal thing is mindblowing. Didn't Sergei Fyodorov play C, RW and D in at least one NHL season? So potentially there could have been an All-Star Team/All-Fyodorov Team like this:
Kariya/LeClair - Sergei Fyodorov - Sergei Fyodorov
Leetch/Lidström - Sergei Fyodorov
Hašek
Fortunately for the NHL, as good as Fyodorov was, he was not THAT good.
Question: Does anyone have the full 05-06 Selke list? I found the top 20 around here earlier, but I'd like to get the entire post-lockout voting lists.
Also, I'm not sure if anyone around here has ever checked into it, but has anyone noticed the 08/09 Selke discrepancy?
Dats/Richards were separated by 3 points, but the total votes for 1st-5th are not even (133, 133, 130, 129, 130).
I read that 131 writers were a part of that, which totals to 655 votes cast. If you add up the strange votes from above, you get 655 votes cast. For some reason, either the numbers I have are off (multiple sources use the same ones) or something I'm not sure of was up?
Thanks for the replies, though!
