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All-purpose rant at DL thread (ALL ranting in here + Poll)

View Poll Results: DL next season
He will be fired / I don't want him back 33 30.56%
He will be back next season / I want him Back 27 25.00%
He will be fired / I want him Back 8 7.41%
He will be back / I do NOT want him back 40 37.04%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-07-2012, 04:10 PM
  #51
kingsfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
One thing, and this is completely fair to say, is that Lombardi mishandling the goaltending in the first place is what allowed Quick to emerge. It didn't take much to realize that Quick was the best option by default.
Partially yes, but he also didn't try and fix it Dave Taylor style by going out and trading for another un of the mill goalie. Remember the wisdom of giving up Huet to get garon? Huet for the next three years was a damn good goalie. Garon struggled to stay in the NHL.

At least DL gave Quick a chance instead of running to the next cast off option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomd View Post

His trades have generally been horrible with maybe one or two exceptions (Williams was a win and JJ was a wash; Richards will go down as a bad trade before all is said and done).

Granted, he built a strong defense but without Quick they would look much more average.
How is JJ a wash? And it's far to early to judge the Richards trade. About the only three trades I say were downright bad were the Cloutier, Penner and Purcell ones, and IIRC, only the Cloutier trade was panned on these boards at the time. Every GM does bad trades, that's the name of the game. Also long as the team keeps getting better overtime, I'm fine with it. We still have a good pipeline of youth (though it would be nice to see more top end talent, I agree), have a very young core, aren't addled with any bad contracts past this season and if DL were to be fired tomorrow, this team could do some damage under a new GM. They don't have a lot of damage which will take years to undo as you claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Judge View Post
Isn't Quick a "Dave Taylor" draft?
This is IMO the biggest misconception regarding prospects on HFboards. This isn't directed towards you specifically Judge, but there's a lot more steps to a prospect going to the NHL than 1) Get drafted, 2) go to NHL.

There is a development process that needs to take place. It's what brings players along at the proper pace. Outside of guys like Doughty, who can really jump straight into the NHL and play?

If you look at the likes of Nabokov and Kiprusoff and Toskala in San Jose, and then Quick and Bernier in LA, you'll see that all were brought along at rough the same pace. A bit different route, given the SJ trio came from Europe, but still, a slow, steady development where they were given lots of playing time and not rushed into something they weren't ready for. All a draft is about is finding the raw talent. that's the scouts job, find a guy who can do a job well and has the athleticism to grow into the position at the NHL level. But scouts don't develop a player, that's where the system comes into place.

Under DT we didn't have that system. Heck, most years we didn't even have our own farm team so dictating who gets a bit more preference in playing time and situations didn't happen. DL has his flaws, but developing players hasn't proven to be one of them. he did well in SJ and he's doing well overall here as well IMO. Quick is arguably the greatest example of that.

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02-07-2012, 04:38 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Partially yes, but he also didn't try and fix it Dave Taylor style by going out and trading for another un of the mill goalie. Remember the wisdom of giving up Huet to get garon? Huet for the next three years was a damn good goalie. Garon struggled to stay in the NHL.

At least DL gave Quick a chance instead of running to the next cast off option.
Cloutier and his extention ring a bell? or Sean Burke?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
How is JJ a wash? And it's far to early to judge the Richards trade. About the only three trades I say were downright bad were the Cloutier, Penner and Purcell ones, and IIRC, only the Cloutier trade was panned on these boards at the time. Every GM does bad trades, that's the name of the game. Also long as the team keeps getting better overtime, I'm fine with it. We still have a good pipeline of youth (though it would be nice to see more top end talent, I agree), have a very young core, aren't addled with any bad contracts past this season and if DL were to be fired tomorrow, this team could do some damage under a new GM. They don't have a lot of damage which will take years to undo as you claim.
Gleason and Johnson are a wash IMO. Gleason is FAR better defensively while Johnson has an offensive (albeit inconsistent) edge. The only trade that Lombardi has clearly won was for Williams. We'll see if the 4 year contract extention was a mistake which offset the original trade. All of his other high profile trades have been bad ones. I'll stand by my Richards comments (just like I'll stand by my Penner comments from almost a year ago). Finally, our "pipeline of talent" is no better than any other in the NHL at this point...and there are certainly no elite prospects in the pool.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
This is IMO the biggest misconception regarding prospects on HFboards. This isn't directed towards you specifically Judge, but there's a lot more steps to a prospect going to the NHL than 1) Get drafted, 2) go to NHL.

There is a development process that needs to take place. It's what brings players along at the proper pace. Outside of guys like Doughty, who can really jump straight into the NHL and play?

If you look at the likes of Nabokov and Kiprusoff and Toskala in San Jose, and then Quick and Bernier in LA, you'll see that all were brought along at rough the same pace. A bit different route, given the SJ trio came from Europe, but still, a slow, steady development where they were given lots of playing time and not rushed into something they weren't ready for. All a draft is about is finding the raw talent. that's the scouts job, find a guy who can do a job well and has the athleticism to grow into the position at the NHL level. But scouts don't develop a player, that's where the system comes into place.

Under DT we didn't have that system. Heck, most years we didn't even have our own farm team so dictating who gets a bit more preference in playing time and situations didn't happen. DL has his flaws, but developing players hasn't proven to be one of them. he did well in SJ and he's doing well overall here as well IMO. Quick is arguably the greatest example of that.
And this is the biggest canard in the whole Lombardi mirage...that he "developed" Quick. Like the 71 games that Quick played in the AHL and ECHL over the space of 1 1/2 years "developed" him. Come on. Quick was a GREAT draft choice who would be a star on any of the 30 teams in the league. The only reason he came up so early was because Cloutier was a disaster and the Kings had gone through every other option.

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Old
02-07-2012, 05:07 PM
  #53
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I think people overestimate the abilities of a GM. DL has done a good job (great job? No.) But he can't make Penner play up to his skill level. He can't make Richards have chemistry with everybody. He can't move a player in front of the net. He can't teach Brown a new deke (okay, maybe he can.)

There's a big pipeline of people in charge of the team. It's way too easy to blame DL. The problem is that he hasn't put together a group of players that can play well with each other under their coaching staff. We have a bunch of good players, what we don't have is a set of good pieces to a system. Or we don't have the right system.

Also Brown needs to learn a new deke.

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Old
02-07-2012, 06:27 PM
  #54
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I thought this team was close the past 2 years. The team was big and tough and played well defensively. Granted, we were very offensively creative.

BUT, as I ranted in another thread the Richards deal changed the face of the team.

We used to have a 3rd line that was so damn successful of either Simmonds-Handzus and either Frolov, Modin or Ponikarovsky. They were big and caused havoc in other teams zone.

Now, our 3rd line is Lewis-Loktionov-Richardson. Enough said.

The Richards deal took a bunch of size and depth away from the Kings.

Manchester is devoid of any potential offensive talent for the big club. Schenn still being there would have changed that.

The Penner and Richards deals gave away picks and character players for one character who we question his character in Penner and another who is looking to be overrated in Richards.

Out:
Ponikarovsky
Handzus
Simmonds
Schenn
Teubert
1st rounder
2nd rounder

IN:
Hunter
Penner
Richards

That is awful. He depleted depth and character for what, 2 players?

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Old
02-07-2012, 06:39 PM
  #55
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Back in the bad old days of the 70s we had another terrible GM named George Maguire. Thanks to him, we got to watch the likes of Larry Murphy, Ray Bourque, Tom Barasso, and Phil Housley play and star for other teams. I thought those days were over but it is going to be very painful watching Brayden Schenn shine for the Flyers for the next decade. Very painful. thanks Deano.

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Old
02-07-2012, 06:44 PM
  #56
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Lombardi spent 5 years telling us about building from within and not trading assets unless the team is ready to be an elite team.

Now, 5 years later we don't have one Lombardi homegrown product in the top 6 forwards. Brown, Kopitar were Taylor drafted, Lombardi traded for Williams, Penner, Stoll and Richards.

Trevor Lewis is a 3rd or 4th line fixture as is Clifford and Loktionov.

Doughty and Voynov were Lombardi draft picks but he traded for Greene and Johnson.

His main saving grace is the fact he drafted Bernier and Quick.

We just fired our coach and can't score...so trading assets now really isn't putting us over the top.

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Old
02-07-2012, 06:51 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Lombardi spent 5 years telling us about building from within and not trading assets unless the team is ready to be an elite team.

Now, 5 years later we don't have one Lombardi homegrown product in the top 6 forwards. Brown, Kopitar were Taylor drafted, Lombardi traded for Williams, Penner, Stoll and Richards.

Trevor Lewis is a 3rd or 4th line fixture as is Clifford and Loktionov.

Doughty and Voynov were Lombardi draft picks but he traded for Greene and Johnson.

His main saving grace is the fact he drafted Bernier and Quick.

We just fired our coach and can't score...so trading assets now really isn't putting us over the top.
Quick was drafted by Taylor. If you believe Lombardi, Bernier and Lewis were both drafted at the behest of Al Murray and Lombardi deferred to his judgement. So you really can't give Lombardi any credit for Quick and almost no credit for Bernier.

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Old
02-07-2012, 06:53 PM
  #58
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I noticed my error when I sent that message. Even worse. Taylor did draft Quick.

What the hell has Lombardi done? Sign and trade for bums like Calder, Preissing, Penner, Cloutier, Hunter, Moreau....

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Old
02-07-2012, 06:56 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I noticed my error when I sent that message. Even worse. Taylor did draft Quick.

What the hell has Lombardi done? Sign and trade for bums like Calder, Preissing, Penner, Cloutier, Hunter, Moreau....
well, he has assembled a border-line playoff team and spend up to nearly the cap max to do it. I'd say that is pretty impressive if your goal is to be a complete incompetent.

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02-07-2012, 07:04 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I noticed my error when I sent that message. Even worse. Taylor did draft Quick.

What the hell has Lombardi done? Sign and trade for bums like Calder, Preissing, Penner, Cloutier, Hunter, Moreau....
Lombardi devloped Quick.

Quick would have been a bust under the old regime

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02-07-2012, 07:08 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Lombardi devloped Quick.

Quick would have been a bust under the old regime
I hope you meant that in sarcasm...

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02-07-2012, 07:14 PM
  #62
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I hope you meant that in sarcasm...
Nope

Do you remember how bad he was on his first call up?

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02-07-2012, 07:15 PM
  #63
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I hope you meant that in sarcasm...
The only person that should get any credit for Quick. Is Bill Ranford and Quick himself.

So both of you guys can just move on now.

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02-07-2012, 07:19 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
The only person that should get any credit for Quick. Is Bill Ranford and Quick himself.

So both of you guys can just move on now.
Who hired Ranford, Hextall, and set up the development system.

And no, I don't know when to quit.

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02-07-2012, 07:21 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Nope

Do you remember how bad he was on his first call up?
First, he wasn't terrible in his first 3 game call up.

Second, a year later he was the starting goaltender...how did Lombardi "develop" him in that time?

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02-07-2012, 07:24 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
First, he wasn't terrible in his first 3 game call up.

Second, a year later he was the starting goaltender...how did Lombardi "develop" him in that time?
Gm's don't develop players. The staff they put in place does. Bill Ranford had already been hired by Dean(and working with Quick)..


Last edited by damacles1156: 02-07-2012 at 07:32 PM.
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02-07-2012, 07:33 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Gm's don't develop players. The staff they put in place does. By that time Bill Ranford had already been hired by Dean(and working with Quick)..
You are correct and while I'm sure Ranford helped Quick fine-tune his mechanics, it is an insult to Quick for anyone to imply that he wouldn't have become a star for any organization given his God given talent.

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02-07-2012, 07:40 PM
  #68
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You are correct and while I'm sure Ranford helped Quick fine-tune his mechanics, it is an insult to Quick for anyone to imply that he wouldn't have become a star for any organization given his God given talent.
Lol....

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02-07-2012, 08:28 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
You are correct and while I'm sure Ranford helped Quick fine-tune his mechanics, it is an insult to Quick for anyone to imply that he wouldn't have become a star for any organization given his God given talent.
I already gave Quick his due in my post above(post number 63). So you can just put it to rest bro.

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02-07-2012, 08:38 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
You are correct and while I'm sure Ranford helped Quick fine-tune his mechanics, it is an insult to Quick for anyone to imply that he wouldn't have become a star for any organization given his God given talent.
Looking back at all your posts (not in this thread, specifically), do you have anything positive in your life?


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02-07-2012, 09:54 PM
  #71
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You are correct and while I'm sure Ranford helped Quick fine-tune his mechanics, it is an insult to Quick for anyone to imply that he wouldn't have become a star for any organization given his God given talent.
Yeah, it only works the other way around for you - Lombardi is destroying players.

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02-07-2012, 10:42 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I thought this team was close the past 2 years. The team was big and tough and played well defensively. Granted, we were very offensively creative.

BUT, as I ranted in another thread the Richards deal changed the face of the team.

We used to have a 3rd line that was so damn successful of either Simmonds-Handzus and either Frolov, Modin or Ponikarovsky. They were big and caused havoc in other teams zone.

Now, our 3rd line is Lewis-Loktionov-Richardson. Enough said.

The Richards deal took a bunch of size and depth away from the Kings.

Manchester is devoid of any potential offensive talent for the big club. Schenn still being there would have changed that.

The Penner and Richards deals gave away picks and character players for one character who we question his character in Penner and another who is looking to be overrated in Richards.

Out:
Ponikarovsky
Handzus
Simmonds
Schenn
Teubert
1st rounder
2nd rounder

IN:
Hunter
Penner
Richards

That is awful. He depleted depth and character for what, 2 players?
You are missing Lotkionov, Gagner, and Voynov in your IN column....just saying.

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02-07-2012, 11:17 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
The Richards deal took a bunch of size and depth away from the Kings.
Simmonds = "a bunch of size and depth"? Losing Handzus, Frolov, Modin and Ponikarovsky had nothing to do with Richards.

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Old
02-08-2012, 01:14 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Cloutier and his extention ring a bell? or Sean Burke?
Yes, and if you'd read the post i was replying to, it was about how he reacted to the Cloutier trade. Burke was a stop gap he got for a 4th, not quite the same as trading Huet for Garon now is it?

And if you want to compare half ass goalies between DT and DL go ahead. You got Cloutier and Burke for DL. DT had Fiset, Cechmanek, Potvin, Dafoe and Garon. And Burke only played 23 games as a King, DT ran through studs like Legace, Storr and Steve Passmore.

DT doesn't hold a candle to DL when it comes to goalies, don't kid yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Gleason and Johnson are a wash IMO. Gleason is FAR better defensively while Johnson has an offensive (albeit inconsistent) edge. The only trade that Lombardi has clearly won was for Williams. We'll see if the 4 year contract extention was a mistake which offset the original trade. All of his other high profile trades have been bad ones. I'll stand by my Richards comments (just like I'll stand by my Penner comments from almost a year ago). Finally, our "pipeline of talent" is no better than any other in the NHL at this point...and there are certainly no elite prospects in the pool.
If you want to think Johnon and Gleason are a wash, go ahead. Doesn't make it right and I doubt you'll find the majority of Kings, or Canes fans for that metter, agreeing with you. DL won that deal. it wsn't a rip off, but he won the trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomd View Post
And this is the biggest canard in the whole Lombardi mirage...that he "developed" Quick. Like the 71 games that Quick played in the AHL and ECHL over the space of 1 1/2 years "developed" him. Come on. Quick was a GREAT draft choice who would be a star on any of the 30 teams in the league. The only reason he came up so early was because Cloutier was a disaster and the Kings had gone through every other option.
No, this is your biggest canard. Where is there a statement that to develop a player he must play in the minors for a specific amount of time? Look at Doughty, he jumped to the NHL immediately, does that mean DL ruined him? No, you put a player in the right circumstances to succeed. For some, that means coming straight to the NHL like Doughty, for some you play in college and about one full minor league season, like Quick. For some, you sit in the AHL for 3+ seasons like Voynov and Martinez. No one is the same, to assume that there's a set guideline for time in the minors to equate to proper development is assinine.

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Old
02-08-2012, 07:17 AM
  #75
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Dean is a great GM to start rebuilding, but taking you all the way.. no he's not that guy. He is too scared of pulling triggers and getting a bad deal. He was *****y for firing Murray, and he let the players have it, yelled at them and crap, He was too in love with murray to notice the problems, And The Gaborik to LA ordeal, if he wanted a few more years, give it to him, why cheap out, NY took a chance, DL never does. The Kovalchuk(yes im going to say it), if you could find any other 50 goal scorers, you'd pay max cap, Dean didn't.As much as we all hated kovalchuk, you cant find players available like that. NJ did. How many 50 goal scorers would be available, damn show some sacrifice. Why do we have Stoll and Penner line still up,Why don't we take a shot with players like Kozun with richards. It's just night and day what a crap of a GM he is. I also hate his ties with the Flyers, i dont think he knows anyone else to trade with. He needs to be gone, like Sutter. This team is self destructing.

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