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Who is an ideal affiliate (from an AHL perspective)?

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02-04-2012, 09:26 AM
  #1
Majik1987
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Who is an ideal affiliate (from an AHL perspective)?

I know we always talk about it as what is the ideal relationship from an MHL team standpoint, but let's turn that one around. What makes an NHL parent an attractive opportunity for an AHL team? And who are these ideal NHL parents if you could pick a club? Maybe we leave the distance factor out for this hypothetical discussion.

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02-04-2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majik1987 View Post
I know we always talk about it as what is the ideal relationship from an MHL team standpoint, but let's turn that one around. What makes an NHL parent an attractive opportunity for an AHL team? And who are these ideal NHL parents if you could pick a club? Maybe we leave the distance factor out for this hypothetical discussion.
To my way of thinking (skewed because of who I root for, I admit), allowing the affiliate to bring in a certain amount of veteran help is essential. I think having a few guys there who have been through the wars (prior NHL experience a definite plus) to prepare guys for what it takes on a day-to-day basis for making it as a pro player is a solid way of doing things. Installing the same (or a near mirror image) of the parent club's system is a plus as well, as it makes for a smoother transition on the move up.

As to which NHL clubs fit the mold, I think Washington is a good parent club (though we'll see if the new regime with Hunter there brings a new philosophy on the farm). Vancouver seems to treat their affiliates well and I think the Red Wings have often done a good job with their farm clubs.

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02-04-2012, 10:42 AM
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Majik1987
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Excellent ideas.

I've always wanted an affiliate that allowed high draft picks to mature in the minors. It would be nice to see some of the future, high-end talent play before they make it big time.

Detroit always seemed like a team that allowed their draft picks to play in the AHL. Now, they weren't getting top 10 picks that often, but I'm just saying.

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02-04-2012, 10:49 AM
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Rumblick's post pretty much nails it...

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02-04-2012, 10:55 AM
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Majik1987
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I'll add on to it; which teams do just not want as a parent affiliate?

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02-04-2012, 12:01 PM
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I'll add on to it; which teams do just not want as a parent affiliate?
As an affiliate - Nashville, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Washington

No Way - Calgary, New Jersey, Detroit, Florida

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02-04-2012, 02:44 PM
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I would love to have a parent club that cared about winning over development!

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02-04-2012, 02:57 PM
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What about Anaheim? They seem like they let talent play in the AHL before pulling them up. How are they with Vets?

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02-04-2012, 07:33 PM
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I want an affiliate that drafts well. They let the players mature in the AHL and don't rush them up to the NHL to fill holes. They are willing to let their AHL team hire a vet or two to lead the team, if necessary. They want a winning team.

I think that Nashville, Washington and Detroit are good examples.

I think that New Jersey, Calgary and Florida have been bad examples.

When you don't see half of the AHL teams, it is hard to judge.

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02-05-2012, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Green Men Rule View Post
I would love to have a parent club that cared about winning over development!
These two items are not mutually exclusive........

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02-05-2012, 11:24 PM
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Teams like Vancouver, Detroit and Boston that let they're draft picks develop in the AHL because they have no need to rush their prospects when they have deep teams.

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02-06-2012, 12:00 AM
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Very happy to have Boston as Providence's affiliate for multiple reasons on and off the ice and making money as a franchise.

Hard to say who I'd want if it wasn't Boston, but the teams I wouldn't want are Phoenix, Tampa and New Jersey. Always seems to be a lot of turmoil or just not caring with those clubs at this level. Florida for years now doesn't even seem to have an "organization" in the minors.....so toss them in.

I don't think drafting high means that much. Sure you get that blue chip prospect who can really put up big numbers, but he's gonna get promoted quick because too many teams can't resist the urge to give him NHL icetime. There are plenty of good guys who are taken in the third, fourth and fifth rounds that can excel at the AHL level and will be down here awhile to develop if you've got a smart GM running the parent club.

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02-06-2012, 03:09 PM
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What about Anaheim? They seem like they let talent play in the AHL before pulling them up. How are they with Vets?
Anaheim has had a rough road with its various AHL affiliates. They have had a string of AHL affiliates in recent years: Portland Pirates, Iowa Chops, Syracuse Crunch and even went one year (2009-10) without an affiliate. I don't know if this was bad luck, difficult relationships or what, but it certainly doesn't help your development system to keep changing affiliates. I think the choice to move to Iowa was because Portland was about as geographically remote from Anaheim as you can get, and then Iowa was suspended by the AHL.

But Anaheim has also made some questionable moves - such as sending Bobby Ryan down basically because of salary cap issues. Brian Burke is known for being somewhat autocratic with AHL affiliates and for drafting poorly, so it is not surprising that a lot of the instability had roots in Burke's time in Anaheim.

The Canucks and Manitoba Moose had an excellent relationship, but it took a few years to get there. The Moose came from the defunct IHL and when they joined the AHL they formed an affiliation with the Canucks (and Brian Burke). The initial 3 years was a bit rocky. The Canucks choice of coach, Stan Smyl, wasn't very successful and the Moose didn't feel much of a partnership with Burke. It also didn't help that Brian Burke was a horrible drafter, so the prospect sent to Manitoba were largely trash (Brandon Reid, Fedor Fedorov, Kirill Koltsov, Nathan Smith, Sean Pronger). One of the things you can credit Dave Nonis with is rebuilding the partnership with Moose GM Craig Heisinger and hiring Randy Carlyle (and later Alain Vigneault). Mike Gillis built upon Dave Nonis's foundation and until the Jets joined the NHL, had the model affiliate relationship. Craig Heisinger was responsible for finding Alex Burrows in the ECHL and most of our core players were developed in Manitoba.

Hopefully the Chicago Wolves and Canucks will have as successful a relationship.


BTW - I'm not just bashing Burke. Burke is just not a partnership guy, and works better with a team owned affiliate like the Toronto Marlies.

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02-06-2012, 10:54 PM
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Hello to all, Ive been coming to this web site for the past few years and Ive just now signed up. Im from San Antonio and Big Rampage fan. So if there is any questions about the Rampage I can maybe help out.
As for the affiliation with Florida I was not to happy when the news broke out in July but I have to say they have made some huge changes over the span of the Season and that has turned this team from 15th to fighting with 9th and 7th seed in the conference. So it seems they are on board with trying to make a winner out of the Rampage.

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02-07-2012, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majik1987 View Post
I know we always talk about it as what is the ideal relationship from an MHL team standpoint, but let's turn that one around. What makes an NHL parent an attractive opportunity for an AHL team? And who are these ideal NHL parents if you could pick a club? Maybe we leave the distance factor out for this hypothetical discussion.
My knowledge of this is a little bit skewed, but I would agree with Washington, Detroit, and Nashville for certain. I am also a bit prejudiced and think that Pittsburgh is not too bad with this as well. They send their draft picks, particularly defense, to WBS. They also sign guys who are borderline AHL/NHL guys to two-way contracts to have depth in the system as well as guys who can compete and push the draft picks. If only, they could figure out how to prevent injuries.

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02-07-2012, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Anaheim has had a rough road with its various AHL affiliates. They have had a string of AHL affiliates in recent years: Portland Pirates, Iowa Chops, Syracuse Crunch and even went one year (2009-10) without an affiliate. I don't know if this was bad luck, difficult relationships or what, but it certainly doesn't help your development system to keep changing affiliates. I think the choice to move to Iowa was because Portland was about as geographically remote from Anaheim as you can get, and then Iowa was suspended by the AHL.

But Anaheim has also made some questionable moves - such as sending Bobby Ryan down basically because of salary cap issues. Brian Burke is known for being somewhat autocratic with AHL affiliates and for drafting poorly, so it is not surprising that a lot of the instability had roots in Burke's time in Anaheim.

The Canucks and Manitoba Moose had an excellent relationship, but it took a few years to get there. The Moose came from the defunct IHL and when they joined the AHL they formed an affiliation with the Canucks (and Brian Burke). The initial 3 years was a bit rocky. The Canucks choice of coach, Stan Smyl, wasn't very successful and the Moose didn't feel much of a partnership with Burke. It also didn't help that Brian Burke was a horrible drafter, so the prospect sent to Manitoba were largely trash (Brandon Reid, Fedor Fedorov, Kirill Koltsov, Nathan Smith, Sean Pronger). One of the things you can credit Dave Nonis with is rebuilding the partnership with Moose GM Craig Heisinger and hiring Randy Carlyle (and later Alain Vigneault). Mike Gillis built upon Dave Nonis's foundation and until the Jets joined the NHL, had the model affiliate relationship. Craig Heisinger was responsible for finding Alex Burrows in the ECHL and most of our core players were developed in Manitoba.

Hopefully the Chicago Wolves and Canucks will have as successful a relationship.


BTW - I'm not just bashing Burke. Burke is just not a partnership guy, and works better with a team owned affiliate like the Toronto Marlies.
you're dead wrong about the reported relationship between Anaheim and Portland, Left Coast, simple matter is who west of San Antonio except Abbotsford is there to affiliate with once Utah left the league, Iowa was suspended and is now Texas bc of a violation of bylaws(you're not supposed to use a franchise as collateral), Anaheim is the one trying to get the West coast franchises to be closer to the parent club instead of beingf in the NE as LA/SJ currently are, the other issue has always been Anaheim has no control over the affiliate operationally other than being the parent club..

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02-08-2012, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
you're dead wrong about the reported relationship between Anaheim and Portland, Left Coast, simple matter is who west of San Antonio except Abbotsford is there to affiliate with once Utah left the league, Iowa was suspended and is now Texas bc of a violation of bylaws(you're not supposed to use a franchise as collateral), Anaheim is the one trying to get the West coast franchises to be closer to the parent club instead of beingf in the NE as LA/SJ currently are, the other issue has always been Anaheim has no control over the affiliate operationally other than being the parent club..
Interesting point but why did they go to Syracuse from Portland? Why did they go to Portland in the first place if they wanted to be further west??? Why didn't they buy the Iowa Stars when it was in trouble? Nothing in any of their actions supports that they want an affiliate out west.

They bailed from their namesake team (Cincy) which is still further west than most affiliates and is a hub for Delta.
Chicago was open, so was San Antonio

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02-08-2012, 01:47 PM
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Anaheim has had a rough road with its various AHL affiliates. They have had a string of AHL affiliates in recent years: Portland Pirates, Iowa Chops, Syracuse Crunch and even went one year (2009-10) without an affiliate.
Just a note - in 2008-09 and 2009-10, the Pirates were affiliated with the Sabres.



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Interesting point but why did they go to Syracuse from Portland? Why did they go to Portland in the first place if they wanted to be further west??? Why didn't they buy the Iowa Stars when it was in trouble? Nothing in any of their actions supports that they want an affiliate out west.

They bailed from their namesake team (Cincy) which is still further west than most affiliates and is a hub for Delta.
Chicago was open, so was San Antonio
Originally, the reports at the time were that they wanted out of Cincinnati because, having lost Louisville & Lexington a few years prior, their travel time had upped considerably. They looked at Portland (which was losing Washington to Hershey) because, given it's proximity to so many other clubs, they would spend less time on the road and therefore have more time for practice ( this is also one reason Tampa is allegedly looking at getting out of Norfolk). I think they underwent a change at the top in Anaheim that started them thinking "Westward Ho". As to why they don't just buy a franchise and move it out west somewhere, I couldn't even guess. They could probably do so if they were so inclined. There have also been more changes in the leadership put there, so who knows where they're coming from at this point?

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02-08-2012, 02:20 PM
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Just a note - in 2008-09 and 2009-10, the Pirates were affiliated with the Sabres.





Originally, the reports at the time were that they wanted out of Cincinnati because, having lost Louisville & Lexington a few years prior, their travel time had upped considerably. They looked at Portland (which was losing Washington to Hershey) because, given it's proximity to so many other clubs, they would spend less time on the road and therefore have more time for practice ( this is also one reason Tampa is allegedly looking at getting out of Norfolk). I think they underwent a change at the top in Anaheim that started them thinking "Westward Ho". As to why they don't just buy a franchise and move it out west somewhere, I couldn't even guess. They could probably do so if they were so inclined. There have also been more changes in the leadership put there, so who knows where they're coming from at this point?
I am still not sure how it gives them more practice time. Instead of say flying out after practice the day before the game, then having a practice the morning of the game, flying home the next morning, having practice then is worst than having a practice in the morning, getting on bus at say 1 PM, making a 4 hour bus ride, get to the rink at 5, leave after the game, get home at say 2:30 in the morning, then having practice the next morning. Is this more expensive, yes, but practice time is not the issue. Now, what if it was a 5 or 6 hour bus ride? Then do you skip practice the morning of the game? And think of what a 6 hour bus ride does to the players.

You want to call it what it is and say money great, but the practice line is crap and the sleeping in their own bed line is dependent upon the player. About half I talked to like that about half it doesn't matter.


Last edited by Majik1987: 02-08-2012 at 04:26 PM. Reason: no need
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02-08-2012, 02:40 PM
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You want to call it what it is and say money great, but the practice line is crap and the sleeping in their own bed line is dependent upon the player. About half I talked to like that about half it doesn't matter.

I never said it was money. I simply tried to answer your questions using the information I know about the situation at the time. Whether you choose to believe it or skew it your own way is up to you.


Last edited by Majik1987: 02-08-2012 at 04:26 PM. Reason: qe and response
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02-08-2012, 06:47 PM
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I never said it was money. I simply tried to answer your questions using the information I know about the situation at the time. Whether you choose to believe it or skew it your own way is up to you.
I never said you said it was about money. I only indicated that I do not see how the travel adversely affects (effects?) the practice time and provided an example. I think they use practice time as an excuse instead of telling us the real reason is money.


Last edited by Majik1987: 02-08-2012 at 09:39 PM. Reason: no need
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02-09-2012, 07:47 AM
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Pardon the homerism,

How about having a NHL affiliate who is owned by a organization who was previously a successful AHL ownership group? The Jets know the value of having a good AHL affiliate.

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02-09-2012, 04:05 PM
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I never said you said it was about money. I only indicated that I do not see how the travel adversely affects (effects?) the practice time and provided an example. I think they use practice time as an excuse instead of telling us the real reason is money.
You may be right. I can only go by what they say - what's in their minds (if anything) is another story.

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02-10-2012, 11:14 PM
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To my way of thinking (skewed because of who I root for, I admit), allowing the affiliate to bring in a certain amount of veteran help is essential. I think having a few guys there who have been through the wars (prior NHL experience a definite plus) to prepare guys for what it takes on a day-to-day basis for making it as a pro player is a solid way of doing things. Installing the same (or a near mirror image) of the parent club's system is a plus as well, as it makes for a smoother transition on the move up.

As to which NHL clubs fit the mold, I think Washington is a good parent club (though we'll see if the new regime with Hunter there brings a new philosophy on the farm). Vancouver seems to treat their affiliates well and I think the Red Wings have often done a good job with their farm clubs.
Agree with the thought, but I'd use the Nashville Predators as an example too; almost of their draft picks have played some time with the Milwaukee Admirals. That Craig Smith jumped directly to the NHL was noteworthy in itself.

The Sharks aren't a half-bad example either, especially given the long stability in Worcester.

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04-08-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
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I would love to have a parent club that cared about winning over development!
Sometimes, you get both.

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