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Will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract? All Bryz Discussion Here. Part Three

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02-08-2012, 09:16 PM
  #351
DUHockey9
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What is so hard about being able to say "Bryz has been this good/bad/mediocre over his career, and has been this good/bad/mediocre this season." They can and are separate thoughts. You're allowed to let one influence your opinion of the other if you so choose, but regardless, it doesn't discount what IS (whether we're talking current season, or entire career).

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02-08-2012, 09:18 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
What is so hard about being able to say "Bryz has been this good/bad/mediocre over his career, and has been this good/bad/mediocre this season." They can and are separate thoughts. You're allowed to let one influence your opinion of the other if you so choose, but regardless, it doesn't discount what IS (whether we're talking current season, or entire career).
It's taken me around 5 posts to realize that Bryz's defense team is comprised of one delusional whacko.

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02-08-2012, 09:59 PM
  #353
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I don't think you get it. My opinion of Bryz as a Flyer is based solely on his performance as a Flyer. Not as a Duck. Not as a Coyote.
i GET IT COMPLETELY.

MY opinion of Bryz as a goalie is based on his 354 career games.
I think he'll average out to his career yearly numbers over his Flyer career.

my opinion on how Bryz is playing now, is based on how he's turned things around since the WC and the benching Lavy gave him to teach him a lesson: you need to earn your playing time.

if you can pick and choose what chunk of games you want to use to form your opinion of Bryz on, fine, that's your right.

but don't tell me that i can't do the same, or imply that one way is 'the right way' to judge a goalie. you can remove 354 games, and i can remove 26.

the Flyers need Bryz to meet / exceed his career stats .... and I'm willing to let the year play out.

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02-08-2012, 10:00 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by cheesesteak View Post
Bryz got new pads as a present for getting back to 90 save % for the season.

That is gonna look horrible on the mainly orange or white jerseys.


Last edited by hckyplayer8: 02-08-2012 at 10:01 PM. Reason: grammar
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02-08-2012, 10:01 PM
  #355
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You're picking and choosing only the times where he did well. That doesn't strike you as being dishonest?

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02-08-2012, 10:04 PM
  #356
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Bryz will bounce back, and he adds jam in the media, and you know how much Lavy loves jam.

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02-08-2012, 10:05 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're picking and choosing only the times where he did well. That doesn't strike you as being dishonest?

ask him about cap management.. that will truely blow your mind..

according to Bernie what Bryz is getting paid is irrelevent and not important..

hahaaha...

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02-08-2012, 10:07 PM
  #358
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You cannot claim to only want to look at Bryzgalov's numbers as a Flyer and then go assert that 25 other goalies playing on different teams would do better as a Flyer because they have better numbers.

You cannot compare statistics about a player across different teams. In fact, you cannot use statistics at all to determine who is a "better" goalie unless you define "better" as being "has lower GAA and higher save %"... which would pretty much be admitting that you do not know much about hockey. It isn't as simple as saying "Bryz had lower GAA and higher save % in Phoenix, thus he was better in Phoenix." There is no such thing as a "typical" or "average" quality shot on goal which would allow you to say that.

"But we already know that..."

But do you consider it...?, or is it more fun to be a Phickle Phlyer Phan who follows the numbers and the media narratives rather than a fan who watches the games and evaluates specific situations/plays?

I dunno, I guess Holmgren should trade for Mike Smith. He is definitely better than Bryz and Bob and the Flyers would probably be in first place with him in net considering his 2.43 / .923....

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02-08-2012, 10:11 PM
  #359
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Bobrovsky has performed better behind the same team.

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02-08-2012, 10:20 PM
  #360
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We need a music video of all the weak goals Bryz has allowed this season.

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02-08-2012, 10:38 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post

I dunno, I guess Holmgren should trade for Mike Smith. He is definitely better than Bryz and Bob and the Flyers would probably be in first place with him in net considering his 2.43 / .923....
We should trade Wellwood for Dave Tippett's defensive system.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Bobrovsky has performed better behind the same team.
As I mentioned before, Bob is much more athletic that Bryz, and his athleticism allows for him to make up for more defensive lapses. Bob and Bryz have both had their average/bad games, and plenty of soft goals let in. Let's not act like we have Bernie as our backup goalie.

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02-08-2012, 10:40 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
We need a music video of all the weak goals Bryz has allowed this season.
Honestly. Do you want Bryz to play better? Do you just love having someone to whine about? Yeah, he's had a bad season but all I ever see you post is how much Bryz sucks.

I'm willing to give him the 2nd half to impress me. He's been off to a decent start.

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02-08-2012, 10:40 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Bobrovsky has performed better behind the same team.
Statistically? Yes. That doesn't mean he is a better goaltender than Bryzgalov, and it doesn't even mean he has been better this year. Unless, again, you simply think "better" means "lower GAA and higher save %".



Teams do not play the same way in front of different goaltenders, for one. This affects the number and the quality of shots the goalie sees.

If the playoffs started tomorrow, and you are Peter Laviolette, would you start Bob? IMO, that would be a big mistake.

To clarify something: I think Bryzgalov has underperformed a bit this year, and I think Bob has played very well.

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02-08-2012, 10:46 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
Honestly. Do you want Bryz to play better? Do you just love having someone to whine about? Yeah, he's had a bad season but all I ever see you post is how much Bryz sucks.

I'm willing to give him the 2nd half to impress me. He's been off to a decent start.

Yes. No. The NYR game was my final straw.

I want the guy to succeed and I want for this teams G issue to go away, but to date, he has to have been the biggest failure in Flyers history.

51 mil to be a bottom 10 goaltender? No worry. Be happy.

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02-08-2012, 10:50 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Yes. No. The NYR game was my final straw.

I want the guy to succeed and I want for this teams G issue to go away, but to date, he has to have been the biggest failure in Flyers history.

51 mil to be a bottom 10 goaltender? No worry. Be happy.
Do you think the skaters, as a whole, were better or worse last year? Also, please rank these goaltenders from best to worst, in your opinion:

Bryzgalov
Bobrovsky
Boucher
Leighton
Smith
Elliott

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02-08-2012, 10:53 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
Do you think the skaters, as a whole, were better or worse last year? Also, rank these goaltenders from best to worst, in your opinion:

Brygalov
Bobrovsky
Boucher
Leighton
Smith
Elliott
Fwds have been basically the same (somehow)...though they could back check more.
D is obviously worse ATM without Prongs.

We talking career or season for the rankings?

I'll check back and answer the above in the morning.

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02-08-2012, 10:57 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Fwds have been basically the same (somehow)...though they could back check more.
D is obviously worse ATM without Prongs.

We talking career or season for the rankings?
I agree on the skaters being roughly the same as a whole. The forwards are better and the defense is worse, so far.

And I suppose career for the goalies, but really I just want you to rank them without thinking about why you ranked them there. Just go with your instincts. My ranking:

Bryzgalov
Elliott
Smith
Bobrovsky
Boucher
Leighton

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02-08-2012, 11:00 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
We should trade Wellwood for Dave Tippett's defensive system.



As I mentioned before, Bob is much more athletic that Bryz, and his athleticism allows for him to make up for more defensive lapses. Bob and Bryz have both had their average/bad games, and plenty of soft goals let in. Let's not act like we have Bernie as our backup goalie.
So...Bob has been more capable of stopping the puck. Isn't that what I've been saying?

I've never said we have Bernie Parent as our backup goalie. That's actually a big part of my frustration; our backup goalie is a second year guy who still has a lot of flaws in his game, yet he's still done a better job overall than our expensive goaltending solution.

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Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
Statistically? Yes. That doesn't mean he is a better goaltender than Bryzgalov, and it doesn't even mean he has been better this year. Unless, again, you simply think "better" means "lower GAA and higher save %".



Teams do not play the same way in front of different goaltenders, for one. This affects the number and the quality of shots the goalie sees.

If the playoffs started tomorrow, and you are Peter Laviolette, would you start Bob? IMO, that would be a big mistake.

To clarify something: I think Bryzgalov has underperformed a bit this year, and I think Bob has played very well.
This year, Bobrovksy has looked better than Bryz. He's looked more confident. He's looked mentally stronger; when a bad goal happens, Bob tries harder. He's generally performed better than Bryz has, and the stats reflect that.

Bryz has been looking better recently, but he still has a ways to go to prove he can do it consistently and that this isn't just a passing phase.

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02-08-2012, 11:02 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Bobrovsky has performed better behind the same team.
Not recently. He's played less games and he played against a weaker opposition,too. Bryz is the better goaltender. I do like Bobrovsky and admire his potential, and wish him to become a solid no1 in a few years, but there's no way he's better than Bryzgalov at the moment. I expect Bryz to be really solid until the end of the season. So far, in the last 6-7 games, he's been almost flawless imo.

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02-08-2012, 11:29 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
I agree on the skaters being roughly the same as a whole. The forwards are better and the defense is worse, so far.

And I suppose career for the goalies, but really I just want you to rank them without thinking about why you ranked them there. Just go with your instincts. My ranking:

Bryzgalov
Elliott
Smith
Bobrovsky
Boucher
Leighton
Elliott is having a good year, yes... But prior to this year Brian Elliott was a scrub. Same with Mike Smith. If you're gonna give them a lot of credit for having one good year after being scrubs for the rest of their careers, you have to give Bryz credit in that regard. I know that you did here, but I mean other people.

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02-08-2012, 11:34 PM
  #371
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That is gonna look horrible on the mainly orange or white jerseys.
I could care less if he plays good, but I'd like it if he used the brown pads, and got a all white helmet with just a Flyers logo like Parent. Maybe he has to win a cup first.

Does anyone remember this? Maybe Bryz's is trying to get a edge.



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02-08-2012, 11:46 PM
  #372
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So...Bob has been more capable of stopping the puck. Isn't that what I've been saying?
You have been saying he looks more confident and has better numbers. I wouldn't characterize that as "more capable of stopping the puck", though. It really just means he has better numbers and looks more confident out there.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I've never said we have Bernie Parent as our backup goalie. That's actually a big part of my frustration; our backup goalie is a second year guy who still has a lot of flaws in his game, yet he's still done a better job overall than our expensive goaltending solution.
But you are still implying that Bob and Bryz face the same kinds of shots (when aggregated over time) when you use the statistics to compare the two. Also, check out the splits on NHL.com. One interesting one is the numbers when you break down by opposing team record. I don't put any stock into numbers without context, and very little stock in numbers even with the context. So I don't think that split is very meaningful. But it just goes to show that stats can be easily abused to adhere to somebodies personal confirmation bias. You simply cannot measure the performance of hockey players quantitatively without making unrealistic assumptions to simplify the mathematics needed to get a result. The figures you end up with don't give you the kind of information needed to determine somebodies actual impact on the ice.

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Bryz has been looking better recently, but he still has a ways to go to prove he can do it consistently and that this isn't just a passing phase.
I agree he has looked better, but "consistently" looking better is something which really is going to depend on your idea of "consistent" goaltending. For instance, Bryzgalov hasn't had a "**** the bed" performance since the Tampa game right before the WC. Since then, his only "meh" performances were against Ottawa (holy turnovers, though), Boston (Lucic's goal was remarkably soft, but none of the others that I can remember off hand were "must saves"), and the Ranger game where he let in a bad goal against Gaborik. The only other thing you could really criticize about his last 11 games (2012) is his shootout performance, which I admittedly couldn't care less about.

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02-09-2012, 12:00 AM
  #373
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Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
You have been saying he looks more confident and has better numbers. I wouldn't characterize that as "more capable of stopping the puck", though. It really just means he has better numbers and looks more confident out there.
He's looked better because for most of the season he has been better at stopping the puck. This happens to be reflected in the stats; the goalie who's better at stopping the puck stops more shots and makes more saves. This trend is reversing, though; However, I'm gonna need to see more games out of both of them to declare that Bryz has clearly overtaken Bob as the better goalie overall (for this season...not in terms of ceiling, career, whatever. I've never said that Bob has a higher ceiling than Bryz, despite what some people apparently think).

Quote:
But you are still implying that Bob and Bryz face the same kinds of shots (when aggregated over time) when you use the statistics to compare the two. Also, check out the splits on NHL.com. One interesting one is the numbers when you break down by opposing team record. I don't put any stock into numbers without context, and very little stock in numbers even with the context. So I don't think that split is very meaningful. But it just goes to show that stats can be easily abused to adhere to somebodies personal confirmation bias. You simply cannot measure the performance of hockey players quantitatively without making unrealistic assumptions to simplify the mathematics needed to get a result. The figures you end up with don't give you the kind of information needed to determine somebodies actual impact on the ice.
I've had a long day, so I'm not gonna look into this tonight (sorry)...but where exactly does one find the stat for "quality of shot?" Or are you referring to ES, SH, etc?

Quote:
I agree he has looked better, but "consistently" looking better is something which really is going to depend on your idea of "consistent" goaltending. For instance, Bryzgalov hasn't had a "**** the bed" performance since the Tampa game right before the WC. Since then, his only "meh" performances were against Ottawa (holy turnovers, though), Boston (Lucic's goal was remarkably soft, but none of the others that I can remember off hand were "must saves"), and the Ranger game where he let in a bad goal against Gaborik. The only other thing you could really criticize about his last 11 games (2012) is his shootout performance, which I admittedly couldn't care less about.
I think that New York game was a pretty enormous "**** the bed" moment, and it killed a lot of the confidence I was beginning to feel about him.

He was pretty weak against Chicago as well, if I remember correctly. He just hasn't really shown consistency from game to game, or even period to period...At this point, whenever the puck enters our zone I'm not sure which Bryz will show up. He still hasn't taken the mental lapses/weak goals/etc out of his game yet. However, they are on a downward trend in general.

As I've said before, I hope this keeps up. Let's see if it does as time goes on. I'm out for the night, I'm too exhausted to think straight.

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02-09-2012, 12:21 AM
  #374
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the bottom line is good goalies cant play with bad defense, bryz played well against the islanders because of defense, im not saying bob isn't a good goalie, but when playoff time comes and bob plays horrible and bryz plays horrible its because of the team, it's the same as last year, they choked, both goalies choked. only reason they got a number one goalie was because they thought it would solve everything, yeah it might be a mistake to give him all that money,

but it's difficult to analyze what was the problem, team or goaltending, sometimes you have eliminate things before you get to root of the problem meaning this offseason, more likely the defense is going to get blown up because carle will go, pronger will retire, dont know about timms, so they have of holes on defense to fix, you cant ignore that, or it will be struggles for both goalies next year.

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02-09-2012, 06:15 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
I was talking about his stats since he joined the Flyers.
Small sample size is small.

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