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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-09-2012, 02:34 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Fuhr gets a lot of credit for winning the Cups, but why did the much weakened Oilers win in '90 without him...
Ehhh...they won without Gretzky, too. Fuhr very much passed the eye test to anyone who saw him in the playoffs. I find it strange that everyone here rides Sergei Fedorov's jock and dismisses a regular season resume which suggests he should be drafted no earlier than pick #150, and yet Fuhr still comes in for criticism for mailing a few in during the regular season.

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02-09-2012, 02:48 AM
  #52
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An excellent goalscorer who will fit in very nicely with Cowley on the 2nd line - LW Rick Martin.

1st team all-star x2 (74, 75)
2nd team all-star x2 (76,77)

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02-09-2012, 02:56 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Edit: I mean he's an acceptable puck winner probably but thought goals in close were his bread and butter
Are you sure you aren't mixing him up with another "Spartak" player, who was called "Russian Phil Esposito"? From what i found, Yakushev was actually complete hockey player who could pass or shoot (especially his slapshot was praised) and was a very good skater.

As for his puckwinning ability - he was discribed as a hard worker with a humble attitude - so he had size, strength and attitude, I don't see why he can't have seccess along the boards. Considering that his regular linemates stand at 5'11 and 170-175 lbs, I think it's fair to assume, that he was one who only benefited from somebody's dirty work.

I'll try to make a bio on him this weekend, I didn't see one, and I found some sources, which isn't given with russian players.

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02-09-2012, 02:58 AM
  #54
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I've included this in his bio, but I thought I'd share a few interesting things I learned about Harvey Pulford.

- While he was extremely tough and physical, he seems to be a relatively clean player. He took some penalties, obviously, but he never seems to be mentioned in any of the on-ice attrocities committed by his Silver Seven team.

- His game appears to have made a major change in about 1900. He started as a total stay-at-home defenseman, as which he never carried the puck, joined the rush, and just "lifted" the puck. He started to join the rush on a regular basis during the dynasty years, and it looks like he increased that even more after the dynasty days. I found an article that suggested he was the focal point for the team's break-outs.

- He might have been the first defenseman to "play the man" instead of the puck in one-on-one situations. If he didn't create the defensive technique, he certainly popularized it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoMakc View Post
Are you sure you aren't mixing him up with another "Spartak" player, who was called "Russian Phil Esposito"?
Alexander Yakushev was the guy who was called the "Russian Phil Esposito", wasn't he?

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Originally Posted by DoMakc View Post
no, i send a pm
yes, i responded



Quote:
Originally Posted by A September to Remember
Big Yak" was a lanky and elegant scoring machine. He was the equivalent to Team Russia as Phil Esposito was to Team Canada. Each player dominated their respective offensive slots. Yakushev was immovable, but he had goal scorer hands.

Not saying that means he was or wasn't a puck-winner - just saying he was indeed compared to Espo.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-09-2012 at 10:42 AM.
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Old
02-09-2012, 03:56 AM
  #55
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I'm going to want to see what new information DoMack has before judging what sort of value Yakushev has as a puckwinner. I also know of him only as a slot guy (Esposito was no puckwinner), but he is one of the least known of the golden era soviets, so it is certainly possible that we don't have a full picture of this player.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-09-2012 at 04:04 AM.
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02-09-2012, 04:04 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I think that Benedict is better, just based on intuition, but I acknowledge that he also had an easier time of it.

I’d like to see Iain Fyffe’s points allocation results for both of them. It considers the defensive results of the team and then allocates points to the players on the team depending on the importance of their defensive position and the contribution they made (it is reputation based as well)

So, if Ottawa has 50 defensive points to go around but the defensemen are Gerard and Boucher, maybe Benedict gets just 20 of them, Gerard 18 and Boucher 12. But Montreal could have lesser results (say, 40 points) but with Cleghorn and an undrafted the points might be allocated 20-15-5 that year, basically implying Vezina was as good that season.

I’m pulling these numbers completely out of you-know-where just to illustrate what I mean. I think separating the goalie from the team is always an interesting and worthwhile, though difficult endeavor. One advantage we have with these early players, is that they were one of just 7-8 players to make a significant impact on the team, so allocating points is not rocket science. We can see how the team performed from a goals against standpoint, look at who was on the team and what we know about them, and go from there. Iain’s system may get us as close to the truth about these old goalies as we’ll ever get.
i have no idea how that points allocation system works (i don't like the sound of it), but ottawa's team D was not based only on their goalies and d-men.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I know it wasn’t a slight, but it is disappointing to see him wait as long as he did to get selected this time. I would be even more disappointed if you didn’t select him when you did, right?

Mmm hmm. And right now three of the goalies who are in almost everyone’s top 5, were all active between 1993 and 2003.

And, if we’re having this ATD in 1972, the three best goalies of all-time were just active concurrently for most of the past 20 years. That doesn’t sound right, does it?

Yes, Esposito vs. Gardiner is an interesting case of peak vs. longevity on the surface. But really, that makes it sound like Esposito didn’t ever have that high peak, that all he did was Brodeur his way to a long and successful regular season career. That is not the case. He was a three-time 1st-team all-star including two a decade apart. Disregard 1980 because I know you will anyway, but in the 1970 and 1972 years, Espo put up seasons as impressive as anything Gardiner ever did. This is confirmed by the all-star voting and his competition for it, the Hart voting (runner up to Orr, for example), and save percentage. He was absolutely dominant those two seasons, so characterizing him as being all about longevity without the peak is false. In between those seasons he posted a playoff for the ages, so long as you call the one flubbed shot at the end what it is – one shot.
jacques lemaire may have thought esposito was weak on long shots.

lemaire had scored on a long shot on esposito in december of 1969. i think it was from the blueline, not the neutral zone, though. mikita said that esposito had trouble seeing the puck on long shots.


esposito was great before that shot in game 7 of '71 finals, though. he was mentioned as a possible smythe winner.

Quote:
You could say Gardiner was the undisputed best goalie in the world for the period of 1931-1934 and it would not be incorrect for me to counter by saying Esposito was the undisputed best goalie in the world for the period of 1970-1974. Where would that leave us? (answer – probably looking at competition in those years, and what they did outside of those years)

I don’t need to bore you with the lengthy list of additional times he ranked very highly in save %, minutes, and earned significant votes for the all-star teams and hart. You already know he has the sustained performance part going for him.

As for Brimsek, all I said was that there’s a case. Yeah, 8 all-star teams and all, but with 30 years separating them (and of course the much larger league Espo played in which we all know plays a factor in goalies racking up all-star team totals comparable to the oldies) it is a worthy question – is 2+6 in the 1940s better than 3+2* in the 1970s? Particularly when other factors are considered:

1. When Espo was not an all-star, he was still an excellent goaltender. Year in, year out. Voting, polls, scouting reports and stats prove it.
2. *Since we’re rewriting history I should point out that Espo deserved to be a 2nd team all-star in 1978. He posted much better personal numbers in more or less the same GP, for a team much less heavy on the defensive players. So with history rewritten, is 4+4 in the 1940s better than 3+3 in the 1970s?

Someone must have done a real sell job on you. Gardiner’s playoff resume is based on making the playoffs 4 times and playing 21 games. By all accounts, his 1934 was awesome but I don’t see why that extends to his other three playoffs being otherworldly, legendary or in any other way outstanding. He just did a good job.

Obviously sv% stats exist in Esposito’s time and not in Gardiner’s time. So the below is not a perfect comparison. But it is worthy of discussion what is a more impressive career-long achievement – making the playoffs 4 times in 7 years and having a weighted GAA that averaged 20% better than the league average over 21 games - or, making the playoffs 14 straight times and posting a weighted sv% 4% better than the league average, maintained over 99 games.
i think some would dispute that esposito was better than dryden or parent from '70-'74, depending on how they value games played and winning the cup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I've included this in his bio, but I thought I'd share a few interesting things I learned about Harvey Pulford.

- While he was extremely tough and physical, he seems to be a relatively clean player. He took some penalties, obviously, but he never seems to be mentioned in any of the on-ice attrocities committed by his Silver Seven team.

- His game appears to have made a major change in about 1900. He started as a total stay-at-home defenseman, as which he never carried the puck, joined the rush, and just "lifted" the puck. He started to join the rush on a regular basis during the dynasty years, and it looks like he increased that even more after the dynasty days. I found an article that suggested he was the focal point for the team's break-outs.

- He might have been the first defenseman to "play the man" instead of the puck in one-on-one situations. If he didn't create the defensive technique, he certainly popularized it.
in ATD 8, i read a canadian academic paper about violence and masculinity viewed through the lens of hockey which had a detailed description of a famous 1907 game between ottawa and the wanderers involving hod stuart (who we had drafted). it quoted newspapers which said that ottawa players, iirc, including pulford, were attacking hod stuart, moose johnson and others and intentionally injuring them. stuart, johnson and another player were carried off the ice unconscious.

iirc, the papers seemed to say that that was not usual for pulford, and he was not nearly as violent in that game. i think 2 or 3 of ottawa's players, but not pulford were arrested, but montreal's players did not pursue legal charges. this was before i knew anything about google's news archive.


i think very few realize how important violence and attempts to injure were to hockey at the time. it was common practice to try to hurt the opponents' players (and some players were killed during games), which is probably why the lady byng was created and why it was originally very prestigious.

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02-09-2012, 04:09 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I'm going to want to see what new information DoMack has before judging what sort of value Yakushev has as a puckwinner. I also know of him only as a slot guy (Esposito was no puckwinner), but he is one of the least known of the golden era soviets, so it is certainly possible that we don't have a full picture of this player.
I would love to know more about him.

I've got the 1974 Summit Series on DVD - maybe I'll watch that

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
in ATD 8, i read a canadian academic paper about violence and masculinity viewed through the lens of hockey which had a detailed description of a famous 1907 game between ottawa and the wanderers involving hod stuart (who we had drafted). it quoted newspapers which said that ottawa players, iirc, including pulford, were attacking hod stuart, moose johnson and others and intentionally injuring them. stuart, johnson and another player were carried off the ice unconscious.
I've found numerous newspaper articles on that event, but Pulford was not specifically named in any of them. I've also read of the event in many books, and Pulford isn't mentioned in any of them either.

Lester Patrick's own account of the incident didn't include Pulford as one of the offenders.

Quote:
iirc, the papers seemed to say that that was not usual for pulford, and he was not nearly as violent in that game. i think 2 or 3 of ottawa's players, but not pulford were arrested, but montreal's players did not pursue legal charges. this was before i knew anything about google's news archive.
As I said above, I have not yet found any indication that Pulford was involved in that attack, nor have I found anything that suggests he was involved in any similar incidents. I have found numerous incidents that involved his teammates, dating all the way back to 1895, and Pulford was never involved.

At least one of Pulford's teammates believed Pulford didn't fight enough.


If you've got newspaper articles, please share them. I'm having a tough time finding many with Harvey Pulford involved in hockey.

Quote:
i think very few realize how important violence and attempts to injure were to hockey at the time. it was common practice to try to hurt the opponents' players (and some players were killed during games), which is probably why the lady byng was created and why it was originally very prestigious.
It was definately a big part of the Silver Seven dynasty.

Can't remember the exact year, but they did introduce a penalty for deliberately injuring another player. If that penalty was given, you were out of the game until the other guy came back.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-09-2012 at 10:42 AM.
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02-09-2012, 04:22 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I'm going to want to see what new information DoMack has before judging what sort of value Yakushev has as a puckwinner. I also know of him only as a slot guy (Esposito was no puckwinner), but he is one of the least known of the golden era soviets, so it is certainly possible that we don't have a full picture of this player.
The quote form September to Remeber compares their slot work, not their playing style. Soviet scouts compares a certain Habs C/LW's (who played in the series too) playing style to Yakushev's before the Summit Series. And that player was a good puckwinner.

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02-09-2012, 06:35 AM
  #59
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Pulford captained multiple national championship Ottawa Rough Rider football teams in the offseason (talk about offseason training!) as the halfback, you know, the throw-the-lead-block guy or carry-the-ball-through-linebackers-on-quick-plays position.

I have a hard time believing Pulford was not a physical hockey player, especially with the 'playing the body rather than the puck' approach he took. I've come across a few references to his strength and hope to document them when I come across them again.

I have come across several praising references to his play over the years, and wish I had referenced them all. I am starting to take note exactly where some of the sources are. He was a respected and important part of the Ottawa club, from day one through a decade-plus of Ottawa hockey. I have ordered two books specifically to get more info on that period and the Silver Seven legacy. I have also surfed a hundred places in years past and will re-trace many of those journeys again for the depth drafts.

One thing I love about the ATDs is the growing sense of legacy, tradition. I used to scorn the navel gazing backward looks at previous draft positions. But each year arguments are made and improvements are made in terms of assessing all-time worth of players. It's a dang ongoing educational process, and a fascinating one for anyone with an interest in hockey history and the dynamics of players' accomplishments and skills.

I love the game of hockey and its roots and development are part and parcel of what makes the sport what it is and what will endure, with the help of those with enough of a historical sense to collect and preserve its past.

------------------------------------------------------

I watched the entire Oilers dynasty years and thought:

1) Fuhr was hugely overrated (bloody soft and inconsistent!); yet...
2) He was dang clutch in Edmonton! and...
3) He played his best hockey in St. Louis as an old guy in the mid-nineties, really blowing my socks off with his workhorse excellence. I thought he was done and he put together several more great years in which he played a greater role than he did on the Oilers team.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-09-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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02-09-2012, 06:36 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I've found numerous newspaper articles on that event, but Pulford was not specifically named in any of them. I've also read of the event in many books, and Pulford isn't mentioned in any of them either.

Lester Patrick's own account of the incident didn't include Pulford as one of the offenders.

As I said above, I have not yet found any indication that Pulford was involved in that attack, nor have I found anything that suggests he was involved in any similar incidents. I have found numerous incidents that involved his teammates, dating all the way back to 1895, and Pulford was never involved.

At least one of Pulford's teammates believed Pulford didn't fight enough.

If you've got newspaper articles, please share them. I'm having a tough time finding many with Harvey Pulford involved in hockey.

It was definately a big part of the Silver Seven dynasty.

Can't remember the exact year, but they did introduce a penalty for deliberately injuring another player. If that penalty was given, you were out of the game until the other guy came back.
i looked back in newspapers and did not find anything bad about pulford in the ottawa citizen, other than possibly hitting lester patrick in the stomach (may not have been dirty, though). montreal gazette is missing for january of 1907.

one of the problems is that the article cited the montreal star, but google does not have montreal star archives, probably b/c it closed in 1979. a general problem with papers of that time is that many are unreadable.


that academic paper noted that the montreal star was most outraged at the game, whereas the ottawa evening journal was the least and took a sort of fake "balanced" approach, even though ottawa's players were far, far more violent.

montreal star may have been unfair to pulford.



i found this quote from the montreal star in google books:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Star
The chairman regretted that he could not bestow any medals on Mr. Pulford, as the exhibitions of scientific ferocity of the other gentlemen were far ahead of his. He came to the conclusion that Mr. Pulford cannot have been very well, but expressed the hope that he would soon recover to exhibit at many more matches some of that bloodthirstiness for which he has been known in the past, and which made him a shining example for other members of the team.
montreal star sarcastically called the silver 7, "the professional butchers' association of ottawa."

page 168 of "Coast to Coast: hockey in Canada to the Second World War"

http://books.google.com/books?id=P4x...page&q&f=false



i also noticed that hod stuart's wikipedia page is wrong about part of that game. it cites montreal gazette's report about stuart's death in saying that stuart did not back down or flinch when threatened by ottawa's players.

but ottawa citizen's report of that game says he did. ottawa evening journal also said he did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen: 1-14-1907
Hod had a magnificent wide sweep, but seldom rushed after the visitors began to slash him. He appeared nervous at times, too, and allowed the puck to slide to X's stick on one occasion when XX darted across the ice and raised his stick as if to strike him.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en
page 5

that report also notes pulford's strong defensive play.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Evening Journal
XX made a rush which looked good to score, and Hod Stuart, who had been keeping shy of XX, came out and attempted to give XX the body. Ten minutes later, when he came to, Hod was a sadder and wiser youth. He had got a lovely crack over the head, but it was accidental, and XX was not sent to the side.... Hod kept far away from XX after this little affair.
that is also quoted in Coast to Coast, on page 171.



when we drafted hod stuart, wikipedia said he was a F, and when i changed it to D or coverpoint, it was changed back to F. it had very little information.

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02-09-2012, 06:56 AM
  #61
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- Fuhr's stats compared to his backups are hardly flattering: +.001, -.010, +.001, -.001, -.001, -.019 - and that's just in EDM, ignoring his disastrous early 90s.
His backup was a pretty decent goalie in his own right.. and why do you suppose they went with Fuhr in the playoffs? Clearly the statistics are missing something. Or do you believe that the coaches can't read stat lines?

It is a similar situation to Smith and undrafted, frankly.

Quote:
The only argument one can truly make and accept is that Fuhr/Oilers didn't really care in the regular season, as Oilers were a given to make the postseason. But why did he play generally worse than his backups? Why was he absolutely atrocious on other teams (save STL), where this excuse is inapplicable?
Fuhr ran into both injury (apparently he separated his shoulder something like 6 times) and substance abuse problems in the early 90s that really curtailed him and once he was getting back on track with a late career resurgence in St. Louis, he got his knee blown out.

Quote:
Fuhr gets a lot of credit for winning the Cups, but why did the much weakened Oilers win in '90 without him, with his backup performing better than Fuhr ever did? I'm pretty sure there was a whole bunch of goalies, most still undrafted, who would've had just as much success as Fuhr did with that team.

It's a great bio, but I'm still not convinced.
The Oilers were still a great team in 90.. they won without Gretzky too so I don't know what you're trying to prove. Secondly, the goalie you are referring to caught lightning in a bottle for couple of years and then dropped right off himself. He did not play better than Fuhr ever did.. if you are saying so you probably didn't see them both during their best playoff runs. He was really something that run, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ehhh...they won without Gretzky, too. Fuhr very much passed the eye test to anyone who saw him in the playoffs. I find it strange that everyone here rides Sergei Fedorov's jock and dismisses a regular season resume which suggests he should be drafted no earlier than pick #150, and yet Fuhr still comes in for criticism for mailing a few in during the regular season.
Especially given the circumstances of the times Fuhr and Fedorov were in..


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 02-09-2012 at 07:06 AM.
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02-09-2012, 07:32 AM
  #62
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Kimberley selects C/LW Vyacheslav Starshinov

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02-09-2012, 07:55 AM
  #63
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The Oilers were still a great team in 90.. they won without Gretzky too so I don't know what you're trying to prove.
That Fuhr wasn't really integral in his Cup wins, and that the Oilers could've won with many other goalies in net - which they proved in 1990, with an ostensibly inferior goalie, even without Gretzky. Fuhr wouldn't have won elsewhere, and Oilers would've (and did) won without Fuhr.

I gotta agree with VI that he played his best hockey in STL.

But all in all I can think of several undrafted goalies I would take over Fuhr without a moment's hesitation.

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02-09-2012, 07:56 AM
  #64
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That Fuhr wasn't really integral in his Cup wins, and that the Oilers could've won with many other goalies in net - which they proved in 1990, with an ostensibly inferior goalie, even without Gretzky. Fuhr wouldn't have won elsewhere, and Oilers would've (and did) won without Fuhr.

I gotta agree with VI that he played his best hockey in STL.

But all in all I can think of several undrafted goalies I would take over Fuhr without a moment's hesitation.
Revisionism at its finest, folks.

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02-09-2012, 07:57 AM
  #65
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Kimberley selects C/LW Vyacheslav Starshinov
Starshinov was actually nicknamed "Russian Phil Esposito".

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02-09-2012, 08:01 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
That Fuhr wasn't really integral in his Cup wins, and that the Oilers could've won with many other goalies in net - which they proved in 1990, with an ostensibly inferior goalie, even without Gretzky. Fuhr wouldn't have won elsewhere, and Oilers would've (and did) won without Fuhr.

I gotta agree with VI that he played his best hockey in STL.

But all in all I can think of several undrafted goalies I would take over Fuhr without a moment's hesitation.
You mean the guy that won the Conn Smythe that year? I know his career is inferior, but he was great for that playoff run.

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02-09-2012, 08:03 AM
  #67
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Revisionism at its finest, folks.
More like average goalie being in right place at right time worship at its finest.

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02-09-2012, 08:04 AM
  #68
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That Fuhr wasn't really integral in his Cup wins, and that the Oilers could've won with many other goalies in net - which they proved in 1990, with an ostensibly inferior goalie, even without Gretzky.
The bolded part buries your argument against Fuhr unless you think Gretzky was also not an integral part of those first four title teams. Are you old enough to have seen Fuhr live in Edmonton?

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02-09-2012, 08:12 AM
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The bolded part buries your argument against Fuhr unless you think Gretzky was also not an integral part of those first four title teams. Are you old enough to have seen Fuhr live in Edmonton?
What? The bolded part strengthens the argument! If Oilers without Gretzky were good enough to win with XXX in net, Oilers WITH Gretzky were obviously so great that it barely mattered who they had in net, and could afford having someone like Fuhr in the net easily. The only way my argument would be buried were if Oilers never won without Fuhr, or if Oilers lost with Gretzky and XXX and won with Fuhr and without Gretzky.

And yes I'm technically old enough

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02-09-2012, 08:37 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
What? The bolded part strengthens the argument! If Oilers without Gretzky were good enough to win with XXX in net, Oilers WITH Gretzky were obviously so great that it barely mattered who they had in net, and could afford having someone like Fuhr in the net easily. The only way my argument would be buried were if Oilers never won without Fuhr, or if Oilers lost with Gretzky and XXX and won with Fuhr and without Gretzky.
Your reasoning here is just terrible. Your argument is basically:

"The Oilers were so good, they didn't need Fuhr to be great in order to win Cups, therefore, he wasn't great."

You don't seem to grasp that this same argument can be used against both Gretzky and Coffey, as well as Fuhr. The fact that the Oilers won a Cup without those three players does not mean they weren't great or "integral parts" of the team when they were in Edmonton. Your logic is just a mess.

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02-09-2012, 08:39 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
What? The bolded part strengthens the argument! If Oilers without Gretzky were good enough to win with XXX in net, Oilers WITH Gretzky were obviously so great that it barely mattered who they had in net, and could afford having someone like Fuhr in the net easily. The only way my argument would be buried were if Oilers never won without Fuhr, or if Oilers lost with Gretzky and XXX and won with Fuhr and without Gretzky.

And yes I'm technically old enough
So in other words you have no idea what you are talking about..


1984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuhr outshines the master, Eric Duhatschek, The Calgary Herald May 11, 1984
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As for Fuhr, he became an instant Conn Smythe candidate with the cool he displayed under the Islanders' fire.

1985
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Gretzky's greatness mystery even to mates", Ian MacDonald, Montreal Gazette June 1, 1985
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Gretzky and Oilers coach Glen Sather said all the right things after the star had been named winner of the Conn Smythe trophy as the outstanding playoff performer.
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Going into Thursday night's game, the only realistic candidates for the Smythe honor were three Oilers - superb rushing defenseman Paul Coffey, clutch goaltender Grant Fuhr and Gretzky.

Fuhr ended up not winning after all, and this writer thinks anyone not Gretzky winning is voter fatigue - but he does say that Fuhr winning a Smythe would not be a surprise...
1987
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Grant Fuhr, not Gretzky, likely MVP", Jim Proudfoot, Toronto Star May 26, 1987
Yet the panel, in opting for [Grant Fuhr], falls prey to an odd malady. Gretzky has won so much there's a weird reluctance to give him his due as if to do so would be embarrassing somehow. It's lovely to see Fuhr, Messier and all the rest receive some recognition, and Gretzky would certainly approve, but the fact is that the Great One, except for an occasional match, is the least dispensable Oiler by many miles - and easily the top performer in the 1987 playoffs.

No fault will be found with Fuhr's coronation. It's his turn, after all. Mark Messier was MVP in 1984, the first year the Oilers were National Hockey League titlists. Wayne Gretzky was singled out the following May. These guys are pretty well interchangeable, really. You could have picked Paul Coffey either of those times, without igniting much controversy. Jari Kurri and Glenn Anderson definitely qualify now along with Fuhr, Messier - and Gretzky, of course.
1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Slick Oilers don't let Cup slip away", Ken Rappoport, The Spokesman-Review, May 27, 1988
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Gretzky, who set a playoff record with 31 assists, also joined Bernie Parent and Bobby Orr as the only two-time winners of the Conn Smythe Trophy, given to the playoff MVP.

"Three or four guys could have won that award," Gretzky said. "Mark Messier played great. Grant Fuhr played great."
And before you say that is just Gretzky being Gretzky:
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Gretzky leads sweep as Oilers capture 4th Cup in five years", Jay Greenberg, Beaver County Times, May 26, 1988
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Gretzky and Messier time and again came up with clutch goals against the Flames, who defrocked the Oilers from the Smythe Division title during the regular season. Grant Fuhr, the best goalie in the game, delivered the key saves. Then, with the stunned Flames out of the way, Detroit and Boston mostly were a matter of course.

I know the stats don't tie it up in a pretty bow but it is pretty universal that Grant Fuhr was the best goaltender in the world during his heyday. You can find citation after citation with those exact words -- especially in the playoffs.

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02-09-2012, 08:56 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Your reasoning here is just terrible. Your argument is basically:

"The Oilers were so good, they didn't need Fuhr to be great in order to win Cups, therefore, he wasn't great."

You don't seem to grasp that this same argument can be used against both Gretzky and Coffey, as well as Fuhr. The fact that the Oilers won a Cup without those three players does not mean they weren't great or "integral parts" of the team when they were in Edmonton. Your logic is just a mess.
Now you're just being obfuscating.

Gretzky and Coffey continued being great players once they left Edmonton. Fuhr turned into one of the worst goalies in the league, and remained as such for many years. Their situation is nowhere near similar.

@BC: even if we accepted that Fuhr was among the best goalies in his 5-year prime (he obviously wasn't the best, as his Vezina and AST records prove), he had an utterly horrible stretch of 7 years where he was absolutely abysmal. There's 22 goalies who played 250+ games between 1988 and 1995. Fuhr is last in SV%, last in GAA, even last in the largely irrelevant wins that were his lone saving grace in his glory years. No amount of random praise (the likes of which one can find for nearly anyone) will convince me that he likely won't be among the worst starters in this ATD.

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02-09-2012, 09:04 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
@BC: even if we accepted that Fuhr was among the best goalies in his 5-year prime (he obviously wasn't the best, as his Vezina and AST records prove), he had an utterly horrible stretch of 7 years where he was absolutely abysmal. There's 22 goalies who played 250+ games between 1988 and 1995. Fuhr is last in SV%, last in GAA, even last in the largely irrelevant wins that were his lone saving grace in his glory years. No amount of random praise (the likes of which one can find for nearly anyone) will convince me that he likely won't be among the worst starters in this ATD.
Random praise?

You go find how many of those 22 goalies were called straight up - the best goaltender in the world - during their prime in dozens of citations, and then get back to me.

You're blindly clinging to stats and awards that the Oilers' (and Fuhr) didn't give a rats ass about. They were focused on the prize.

Fuhr had a rough time during the early 90s for sure with his injuries and suspension etc., but you're massively understating how he played during his best years.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 02-09-2012 at 09:14 AM.
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02-09-2012, 09:14 AM
  #74
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Lada Togliatti completes our top line by selecting RW Marian Hossa



2 times top 10 in Hart voting
2nd in Calder voting in
AS voting history - 2, 3, 3, 3, 6
4 top 10 finishes in goal scoring (4, 5, 5, 6) - #5 among all active players
4 top 10 finishes in short-handed scoring (1, 1, 8, 10) - #3 among all active players
880 points (408G, 472A) in 950 regular season games
97 points (36G, 61A) in 127 playoff games


Last edited by DaveG: 02-09-2012 at 09:21 AM.
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02-09-2012, 09:16 AM
  #75
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Lada Togliatti completes our top line by selecting RW Marian Hossa



1x 2nd team all star
4 top 10 finishes in goal scoring (4, 5, 5, 6) - #5 among all active players
4 top 10 finishes in short-handed scoring (1, 1, 8, 10) - #3 among all active players
880 points (408G, 472A) in 950 regular season games
97 points (36G, 61A) in 127 playoff games
Great pick, one of my favourite players currently in the NHL. Was looking very strongly at him for Sundin's right wing partner.

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