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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-09-2012, 09:57 AM
  #76
vecens24
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I'm pretty sure Hossa can play LW as well. Good defensively, great goal scorer, solid selection here. Had I been able to find substantiation about the LW thing he would have been my pick around 270.

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02-09-2012, 10:00 AM
  #77
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Daniel Alfredsson

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02-09-2012, 10:26 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Daniel Alfredsson
There goes another option I wanted for Sundin's wing. Really good pick, Alfie does everything well it seems, by far the best Ottawa Senator in the team's modern history.

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Old
02-09-2012, 10:29 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
It was the 80s? The Oilers generally had a playoff berth secured by what, Christmas?
Same can be said for those other teams too, though.

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Montreal finishes in goals against: 3, 1, 1, 1, 1.

Is Harvey better defensively than any Edmonton defender? Does anyone have Plante ranked lower than Fuhr?


Montreal finishes in goals against: 1, 1, 1, 1.

Did the Oilers' have a defense consisting of Robinson/Savard/Lapointe? Do they have Bob Gainey?

Does anyone have Fuhr higher than Dryden on their list?


Islanders 80-83: 4, 4, 2, 1 And this is with tandem goaltending in which XXXXX was at times playing more/better than Smith.

Oilers team finishes GA their peak years: 10, 8, 10, 8. Again with tandem goaltending most of the time. A dynasty team with middle of the road defense. At least in the regular season.
Again, the Devil’s advocate position: maybe those GA rankings have something to do with their goalies stopping more pucks?

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The Islanders team which was past its peak in those years (84,85,87,88) still finishes better in GA those years, and Smith is being outplayed by XXXXX by that time: 4, 11, 9, 4
I’m not sure why that is relevant.

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Keeping in mind that Smith played all of 9 playoff games after 84, and Fuhr outplayed him in 84.. so I'm not sure what his playoff sv% shows in the first place.
Again, I don’t know why this is relevant. For all four goalies I cherrypicked the exact years they won the cup. Smith in 1984 does not matter to me.

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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i have no idea how that points allocation system works (i don't like the sound of it), but ottawa's team D was not based only on their goalies and d-men.
I know, and it does allocate points to everyone, I was just showing an extremely simplified view of it.

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Revisionism at its finest, folks.
That’s not fair. I distinctly remember a good mix of “he’s the best goalie in hockey” and “he’s overrated and anyone would have won with Edmonton” back in those days. This didn’t just pop up in the new millennium and with new derivative stats.

You can say that is wrong if you like, and point out why, but these notions are not new.

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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
Lada Togliatti completes our top line by selecting RW Marian Hossa



2 times top 10 in Hart voting
2nd in Calder voting in
AS voting history - 2, 3, 3, 3, 6
4 top 10 finishes in goal scoring (4, 5, 5, 6) - #5 among all active players
4 top 10 finishes in short-handed scoring (1, 1, 8, 10) - #3 among all active players
880 points (408G, 472A) in 950 regular season games
97 points (36G, 61A) in 127 playoff games
Good pick. Alfie, Iginla, Hossa and St. Louis seem to get harder and harder to choose between as time goes on.

Hossa must be doing something right out there. His CORSI numbers are always great, and I think he led the league once. I think it’s an interesting feather in his cap that, more than almost any other player, the ice starts to tilt towards the opponent’s net when he is on the ice.

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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
There goes another option I wanted for Sundin's wing.
You can't put those two together. Just a couple of overrated chicken swedes who never won anything, and look at their top-10s in scoring, they have like 7 combined!!!!


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-09-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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Old
02-09-2012, 10:39 AM
  #80
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If Provost wasn't available , both Hossa and Alfredsson were my B1 B2 options.

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02-09-2012, 10:41 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx
Would have been nice if I got a pm.
Oh I was going to PM you , but then I remembered not so long ago when you whined about too many people sending you PMs clogging your inbox and insisted the only one to PM you would be the one who picks before.

So next time be careful what you wish for.

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Old
02-09-2012, 10:44 AM
  #82
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Eh, Hossa and Alfredsson are very good picks now, but you really think not much differentiates them from Iginla and St. Louis???

Top 10 scoring finishes
Iginla = 1st, 3rd, 6th, 8th
St. Louis = 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th
Hossa = 5th, 6th, 9th*
Alfredsson = 4th, 7th, 9th

*right now 2011-12

St Louis and Iginla peaked a level the other two never did

Hossa and Alfredsson are very good picks now, this is addressed to seventielord's ridiculous statement that "it gets harder to choose between them and Iginla and St Louis"


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-09-2012 at 11:47 AM.
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Old
02-09-2012, 10:46 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eh, Hossa and Alfredsson are very good picks now, but you really think not much differentiates them from Iginla and St. Louis???

Top 10 scoring finishes
Iginla = 1st, 3rd, 6th, 8th
St. Louis = 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th*
Hossa = 5th, 6th, 9th*
Alfredsson = 4th, 7th, 9th

*right now 2011-12

St Louis and Iginla peaked a level the other two never did

Hossa and Alfredsson are very good picks now, this is addressed to seventielord's ridiculous statement that "it gets harder to choose between them and Iginla and St Louis"
both are better defensively though , for what it's worth.

Alfredsson can also play the point on the PP.

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02-09-2012, 10:47 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I'm pretty sure Hossa can play LW as well. Good defensively, great goal scorer, solid selection here. Had I been able to find substantiation about the LW thing he would have been my pick around 270.
no chance Hossa ever make it to 270 again.He'll only add to his resume making this impossible.

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Old
02-09-2012, 10:48 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eh, Hossa and Alfredsson are very good picks now, but you really think not much differentiates them from Iginla and St. Louis???

Top 10 scoring finishes
Iginla = 1st, 3rd, 6th, 8th
St. Louis = 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th*
Hossa = 5th, 6th, 9th*
Alfredsson = 4th, 7th, 9th

*right now 2011-12

St Louis and Iginla peaked a level the other two never did

Hossa and Alfredsson are very good picks now, this is addressed to seventielord's ridiculous statement that "it gets harder to choose between them and Iginla and St Louis"
In 2010-2011 Hossa's regular season and playoff Corsi both were not top 30.

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Old
02-09-2012, 10:48 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
both are better defensively though , for what it's worth.

Alfredsson can also play the point on the PP.
They are better defensively, but it's not like they are Selke winners or St Louis is a slouch. That gap in offense is quite large.

St Louis has recently been playing point on the PP in Tampa Bay, no? (Though he's not as experienced there as Alfredsson)

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02-09-2012, 10:49 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
They are better defensively, but it's not like they are Selke winners or St Louis is a slouch. That gap in offense is quite large.

St Louis has recently been playing point on the PP in Tampa Bay, no?
I'm not sure , but I know I wouldn't want st-louis on my PP point in this thing because he doesn't have Alfredsson's slapshot.Alfredsson has been playing the point for years if I'm not mistaken.Overall st-louis on the point looks more like an experiment by Guy Boucher than anything else , he doesn't seems like a point player to me.

Alfredsson also has been a long time captain at this point.I'm not trying to say he's better than st.louis , but he's not that far behind.

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02-09-2012, 10:53 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I'm not sure , but I know I wouldn't want st-louis on my PP point in this thing because he doesn't have Alfredsson's slapshot.

Alfredsson also has been a long time captain at this point.I'm not trying to say he's better than st.louis , but he's not that far behind.
Offensively, he's very far behind St Louis now. I don't see whatever defense and intangibles Alfredsson has coming close to making it up. St Louis has also been a better playoff performer (Alfredsson had an amazing 2007 but was generally considered disappointing beforehand).

I guess you can give Alfredsson an A here, which is nice.

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02-09-2012, 10:56 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Offensively, he's very far behind St Louis now. I don't see whatever defense and intangibles Alfredsson has coming close to making it up. St Louis has also been a better playoff performer (Alfredsson had an amazing 2007 but was generally considered disappointing beforehand).

I guess you can give Alfredsson an A here, which is nice.
It depends how you look at things , Alredsson has a better PPG than st. louis and played more game , and their carreer overlapsed.If you say Alfredsson has a better PPG than st.louis because he played before the dead puck era, take a look at these seasons , they are all very average.Of course st.louis is ahead because his finishes are better , but in the grand scheme of things , st.louis didnt contribvute that much more offense than alfredsson.

Also , while st-louis is superb in term of consistancy , so is Alfredsson.From 00-01 to 09-10 , he never scored less than 70 pts with four 80 pts + seasons ( and one 100pts ) with a couple of these 70 pts season scored in 70 games or so.He's been pretty solid overall , don't want to sell him short on this.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-09-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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02-09-2012, 11:01 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eh, Hossa and Alfredsson are very good picks now, but you really think not much differentiates them from Iginla and St. Louis???

Top 10 scoring finishes
Iginla = 1st, 3rd, 6th, 8th
St. Louis = 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th*
Hossa = 5th, 6th, 9th*
Alfredsson = 4th, 7th, 9th

*right now 2011-12

St Louis and Iginla peaked a level the other two never did

Hossa and Alfredsson are very good picks now, this is addressed to seventielord's ridiculous statement that "it gets harder to choose between them and Iginla and St Louis"
on the other hand, Hossa has 53 more points in 49 more games as of now... basically the same output.

Alfie has the best career PPG out of any of them, and has done it for 1100 games.

there are many factors to consider and each of them comes out looking pretty good depending on which one you use. Obviously you're playing the "they were top-3 in scoring twice" angle.

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Old
02-09-2012, 11:02 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
It depends how you look at things , Alredsson has a better PPG than st. louis and played more game , and their carreer overlapsed.If you say Alfredsson has a better PPG than st.louis because he played before the dead puck era, take a look at these seasons , they are all very average.Of course st.louis is ahead because his finishes are better , but in the grand scheme of things , st.louis didnt contribvute that much more offense than alfredsson.
That's only because St Louis didn't become an impact player until the age of 27. Since then, he's hit a level that Alfreddsson has not.

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02-09-2012, 11:02 AM
  #92
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Dawson City selects Esa Tikkanen, LW.

A five-time Stanley Cup champion, he will provide grit and defensive awareness (3x Selke runner-up), and make room for Malkin and Bure on our second line.

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02-09-2012, 11:05 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That’s not fair. I distinctly remember a good mix of “he’s the best goalie in hockey” and “he’s overrated and anyone would have won with Edmonton” back in those days. This didn’t just pop up in the new millennium and with new derivative stats.
Oh you do, eh?

How old were you in 84-88 again?

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02-09-2012, 11:07 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Offensively, he's very far behind St Louis now. I don't see whatever defense and intangibles Alfredsson has coming close to making it up. St Louis has also been a better playoff performer (Alfredsson had an amazing 2007 but was generally considered disappointing beforehand).

I guess you can give Alfredsson an A here, which is nice.
Actually this is not true. Alfredsson has mostly been considered the guy that still played good when Ottawa were getting booted out of the playoffs during the dead puck era.

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02-09-2012, 11:09 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
That's only because St Louis didn't become an impact player until the age of 27. Since then, he's hit a level that Alfredsson has not.
bah , maybe , but at what age X player became an impact player is irrelevant and you know it , I can't believe I have to tell you that.

and you also have to realize Alfredsson pre-27 years old career actually HURT his PPG , and he started producing right in the middle of the dead puck era.

Franckly , the more I look into it , the more Alfredsson is getting close to st-louis offensively , and he's got better selke record as well as better leadership and versatility on the powerplay.

It's also not like Alfredsson was a stats compiler , all of his seasons are still pretty strong.Of course st.louis will always be ranked higher than him offensively and I agree , but how far ahead is he? Remains to be seen.

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02-09-2012, 11:11 AM
  #96
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When Reds and I had Alfredsson last year I asked around on the Senators board about him playing the point. Here are some of the responses I got...

Quote:
All of 02-03, 03-04 and 05-06... rarely otherwise.
Quote:
He played the point on the power play a lot back in the Jacques Martin days. Consistently our PP had Hossa-Bonk-Havlat up front with Redden & Alfie on the point. Since the lockout he has mostly played up front and I don't think he played the point at all this season with Gonchar & Karlsson manning those spots.
Quote:
Him and Redden were godly together back in the day. He must have score 10+ from the point back in 05-06.
In response to the above...
Quote:
His 48 PP points along would have made him 17th in scoring among D-men.

Also, those 3 years were the best our PP has ever been. Not sure that it ever cracked the Top-10 otherwise.

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02-09-2012, 11:13 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
on the other hand, Hossa has 53 more points in 49 more games as of now... basically the same output.

Alfie has the best career PPG out of any of them, and has done it for 1100 games.

there are many factors to consider and each of them comes out looking pretty good depending on which one you use. Obviously you're playing the "they were top-3 in scoring twice" angle.
Ugh, I hate this method of evaluating players, where their pre-prime years are given equal weight to their prime years.

You do this with Frank Boucher and Howie Morenz and they look like equal players (as Sturm showed last time). But everyone takes Morenz first because he peaked at a level Boucher can't touch. Just like St Louis (and Iginla) peaked at a level Alfredsson and Hossa can't touch.

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02-09-2012, 11:13 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Also , while st-louis is superb in term of consistancy , so is Alfredsson.From 00-01 to 09-10 , he never scored less than 70 pts with four 80 pts + seasons ( and one 100pts ) with a couple of these 70 pts season scored in 70 games or so.He's been pretty solid overall , don't want to sell him short on this.
It raises an interesting point about the whole "compartmentalization" thing we do when we break players' careers down into seasons. I always thought Iginla was close to a top-120 player and Alfie down in the 200s, then it was pointed out to me how their overall production has been practically identical over that time. For that to happen, it would mean Iginla peaked higher but Alfie was better in his off-peak years. Does either player really deserve that much more credit for either? Isn't the larger sample size supposed to be the most telling?

Interesting food for thought.

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Oh you do, eh?

How old were you in 84-88 again?
I think you know the answer. I remember the years 1988 and beyond very well. Memories of the Oiler dynasty were obviously very fresh for everyone I knew.

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Actually this is not true. Alfredsson has mostly been considered the guy that still played good when Ottawa were getting booted out of the playoffs during the dead puck era.
I agree. The scoring stats show this too. Ottawa's playoff secondary scoring was absolutely abysmal.

I am not saying he was some kind of hero, but he was.... OK.

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Old
02-09-2012, 11:21 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ugh, I hate this method of evaluating players, where their pre-prime years are given equal weight to their prime years.

You do this with Frank Boucher and Howie Morenz and they look like equal players (as Sturm showed last time). But everyone takes Morenz first because he peaked at a level Boucher can't touch. Just like St Louis (and Iginla) peaked at a level Alfredsson and Hossa can't touch.
Look , I agree with you , but I also think Alfredsson has a more gradual career , you can't just count his prime then forgot outside of it he was very very close to his prime while st.louis just basically has a prime.

If you take out the weird 05-06 year , you have eight seasons between 89 pts and 70 pts.What do you do what all of this?

suggest me something then , I completely agree prime is more valuable and that,s why I rank st.louis higher.

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02-09-2012, 11:22 AM
  #100
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It raises an interesting point about the whole "compartmentalization" thing we do when we break players' careers down into seasons. I always thought Iginla was close to a top-120 player and Alfie down in the 200s, then it was pointed out to me how their overall production has been practically identical over that time. For that to happen, it would mean Iginla peaked higher but Alfie was better in his off-peak years. Does either player really deserve that much more credit for either? Isn't the larger sample size supposed to be the most telling?
Are we really back to valuing these players based on their career points per game averages, without caring at all about how high they peaked? That method was considered obsolete when I first started posting in the History section and I'm surprised you want to go back to it.

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